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Thread: Issue With Open Carry and Utica Schools

  1. #1
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    Issue With Open Carry and Utica Schools

    I have open carried at two elementary schools since the beginning of the school year without issue, until today.

    Apparently while dropping my kids off at latch key this morning a parent seen me open carrying and made a complaint to the school. The principal, who's husband is apparently a LEO, called her husband and he informed her that it was illegal. The latchkey supervisor provided documentation via: Wiki-Pedia stating that it is illegal. Yes... Wiki-Pedia. And the principal confronted my wife this afternoon. My wife politely told them I was lawfully carrying and that I always have a copy of the laws on me in the event that I run in to someone who is misinformed.

    I sent an email to the principal and will follow up in person. The email contained my "law packet" with MSP update #86, the Federal Pistol Free School Zone law, CC and OC laws as well as the preemption law. (please do not debate the gray area of preemption).

    Hopefully this will be resolved soon. Here is the email that I sent:

    I spoke with my wife this afternoon and she informed me about the misunderstanding regarding the possession of firearms on school grounds. I understand that this area can be very confusing and is often mis-interpreted, even by law enforcement officers.

    I have included an attachment with legal citations providing the necessary documentation that is verifiable through State and Federal Laws. I can assure you that a law abiding citizen, with the appropriate licensing, can carry a firearm on school grounds and in the building. As a law abiding citizen I cannot conceal my firearm or I will be in violation of State Law.*

    There are very specific exemptions for Concealed Pistol License (CPL) holders. One of these exemptions is the Federal Pistol Free School Zone Law (see attachment) and the fact that you can open carry your firearm if in an area where you are not allowed to conceal, such as a school. In fact, once I step out of my vehicle I MUST open carry or be in violation of the law.

    I would be more than happy to meet with you to discuss or have a Representative from Michigan Open Carry (a non-profit organization that educates the public on gun rights) contact you. The Michigan State Police would also be an excellent source of information since they are very knowledgeable on the subject.

    I look forward to hearing from you in regards to this subject.

    Kindest Regards,



    Blasted out with my Photon using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Best wishes.

    Hmmm, aware of latch-key children but not of self-defense?

  3. #3
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
    I have open carried at two elementary schools since the beginning of the school year without issue, until today.

    Apparently while dropping my kids off at latch key this morning a parent seen me open carrying and made a complaint to the school. The principal, who's husband is apparently a LEO, called her husband and he informed her that it was illegal. The latchkey supervisor provided documentation via: Wiki-Pedia stating that it is illegal. Yes... Wiki-Pedia. And the principal confronted my wife this afternoon. My wife politely told them I was lawfully carrying and that I always have a copy of the laws on me in the event that I run in to someone who is misinformed.

    I sent an email to the principal and will follow up in person. The email contained my "law packet" with MSP update #86, the Federal Pistol Free School Zone law, CC and OC laws as well as the preemption law. (please do not debate the gray area of preemption).

    Hopefully this will be resolved soon. Here is the email that I sent:

    I spoke with my wife this afternoon and she informed me about the misunderstanding regarding the possession of firearms on school grounds. I understand that this area can be very confusing and is often mis-interpreted, even by law enforcement officers.

    I have included an attachment with legal citations providing the necessary documentation that is verifiable through State and Federal Laws. I can assure you that a law abiding citizen, with the appropriate licensing, can carry a firearm on school grounds and in the building. As a law abiding citizen I cannot conceal my firearm or I will be in violation of State Law.*

    There are very specific exemptions for Concealed Pistol License (CPL) holders. One of these exemptions is the Federal Pistol Free School Zone Law (see attachment) and the fact that you can open carry your firearm if in an area where you are not allowed to conceal, such as a school. In fact, once I step out of my vehicle I MUST open carry or be in violation of the law.

    I would be more than happy to meet with you to discuss or have a Representative from Michigan Open Carry (a non-profit organization that educates the public on gun rights) contact you. The Michigan State Police would also be an excellent source of information since they are very knowledgeable on the subject.

    I look forward to hearing from you in regards to this subject.

    Kindest Regards,



    Blasted out with my Photon using Tapatalk
    Good luck. Hopefully they realize that you are not breaking the law despite what wiki and a LEO said. Also you could carry concealed when you get out of the vehicle but only if you are in the parking lot.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Apparently Shelby Township Police were called and they told the school I was illegal in carrying at the school.

    Blasted out with my Photon using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Please be careful with how much you discuss at this point, especially with the Police becoming involved. This is an area where much confusion reins. You may want to discuss with an attorney as well, in the event that the Police come calling.

    Be Safe, Carry On!

  6. #6
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
    Apparently Shelby Township Police were called and they told the school I was illegal in carrying at the school.

    Blasted out with my Photon using Tapatalk
    Does Shelby Township provide Police Services for this Utica School?

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    Yea they do.

    Blasted out with my Photon using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    PM sent.

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    Keep up the good work OP. We must Never give up on the schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
    . In fact, once I step out of my vehicle I MUST open carry or be in violation of the law.
    Negative. You are ok to conceal anywhere in the parking lot.

    Otherwise, all points are correct.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Negative. You are ok to conceal anywhere in the parking lot.

    Otherwise, all points are correct.
    Ok.. got it. Since I must sign them in... I have to go inside.

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    You can OC there.

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    Federal Pistol Free School Zone Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
    I have open carried at two elementary schools since the beginning of the school year without issue, until today.

    Apparently while dropping my kids off at latch key this morning a parent seen me open carrying and made a complaint to the school. The principal, who's husband is apparently a LEO, called her husband and he informed her that it was illegal. The latchkey supervisor provided documentation via: Wiki-Pedia stating that it is illegal. Yes... Wiki-Pedia. And the principal confronted my wife this afternoon. My wife politely told them I was lawfully carrying and that I always have a copy of the laws on me in the event that I run in to someone who is misinformed.

    I sent an email to the principal and will follow up in person. The email contained my "law packet" with MSP update #86, the Federal Pistol Free School Zone law, CC and OC laws as well as the preemption law. (please do not debate the gray area of preemption).

    Hopefully this will be resolved soon. Here is the email that I sent:

    I spoke with my wife this afternoon and she informed me about the misunderstanding regarding the possession of firearms on school grounds. I understand that this area can be very confusing and is often mis-interpreted, even by law enforcement officers.

    I have included an attachment with legal citations providing the necessary documentation that is verifiable through State and Federal Laws. I can assure you that a law abiding citizen, with the appropriate licensing, can carry a firearm on school grounds and in the building. As a law abiding citizen I cannot conceal my firearm or I will be in violation of State Law.*

    There are very specific exemptions for Concealed Pistol License (CPL) holders. One of these exemptions is the Federal Pistol Free School Zone Law (see attachment) and the fact that you can open carry your firearm if in an area where you are not allowed to conceal, such as a school. In fact, once I step out of my vehicle I MUST open carry or be in violation of the law.

    I would be more than happy to meet with you to discuss or have a Representative from Michigan Open Carry (a non-profit organization that educates the public on gun rights) contact you. The Michigan State Police would also be an excellent source of information since they are very knowledgeable on the subject.

    I look forward to hearing from you in regards to this subject.

    Kindest Regards,



    Blasted out with my Photon using Tapatalk

    What does this law say Federal Pistol Free School Zone Law

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossbart View Post
    What does this law say Federal Pistol Free School Zone Law

    what?

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossbart View Post
    What does this law say Federal Pistol Free School Zone Law
    The federal GUN free school zone act regulates the possession of firearms on and within 1,000 feet of any school in the U.S. There are exemptions though. One of which is to a person who is licensed by the state which the school zone is located to possess a firearm. Note you must be licensed by the state in which the school zone is located to be exempt. If you travel to Ohio as a Michigan resident anytime you come within 1,000 feet of any school you're violating this law. Also if you legally own a pistol in Michigan you are exempt from this because the "permit to purchase" is actually a license to purchase, carry, transport and possess a pistol.

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of
    the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law
    enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  15. #15
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Good luck. Hopefully they realize that you are not breaking the law despite what wiki and a LEO said. Also you could carry concealed when you get out of the vehicle but only if you are in the parking lot.
    The two things in this world that a never 100% correct: Wikipedia and Law Enforcement Officers.

    Never talk to police, and never use wikipedia as a guide to the laws.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    The federal GUN free school zone act regulates the possession of firearms on and within 1,000 feet of any school in the U.S. There are exemptions though. One of which is to a person who is licensed by the state which the school zone is located to possess a firearm. Note you must be licensed by the state in which the school zone is located to be exempt. If you travel to Ohio as a Michigan resident anytime you come within 1,000 feet of any school you're violating this law. Also if you legally own a pistol in Michigan you are exempt from this because the "permit to purchase" is actually a license to purchase, carry, transport and possess a pistol.



    http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf
    Im not sure about Michigan, but the 1000 foot rule here in Iowa requires a firearm related offense to be commited within the 1000 foot boundary to make it unlawful. We have discussed this in detail.

    724.4A WEAPONS FREE ZONES -- ENHANCED PENALTIES.
    1. As used in this section, "weapons free zone" means the
    area in or on, or within one thousand feet of, the real property
    comprising a public or private elementary or secondary school, or in
    or on the real property comprising a public park. A weapons free
    zone shall not include that portion of a public park designated as a
    hunting area under section 461A.42.
    2. Notwithstanding sections 902.9 and 903.1, a person who commits
    a public offense involving a firearm or offensive weapon, within a
    weapons free zone, in violation of this or any other chapter shall be
    subject to a fine of twice the maximum amount which may otherwise be
    imposed for the public offense.
    It has been discussed that this law, if enforced, would violate private property, through areas, and other modes of carry within 1000 feet of a school or park. That is not the intention.

  17. #17
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    Prosecutors dont care about intention, they care about boosting their reputation and record at any cost, and at anyone's expense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Im not sure about Michigan, but the 1000 foot rule here in Iowa requires a firearm related offense to be commited within the 1000 foot boundary to make it unlawful. We have discussed this in detail.
    That's a state law. Federal law makes simple possession of a firearm within 1000' of school property a crime. Unless you are possessing the firearm in accordance with one of the listed exemptions.
    (A)It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B)Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (i)on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii)if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii)that is—
    (I)not loaded; and

    (II)in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;


    (iv)by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v)by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    (vi)by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

    (vii)that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
    (25)The term “school zone” means—
    (A)in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or

    (B)within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  19. #19
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    ^ What Bronson said.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  20. #20
    Regular Member Scooter's Avatar
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    Let me see if I have this correct; If I, a CPL holder in Michigan visit Ohio, I cannot CC or OC within 1000 feet of a school? (Total confusion) Help!

  21. #21
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    Let me see if I have this correct; If I, a CPL holder in Michigan visit Ohio, I cannot CC or OC within 1000 feet of a school? (Total confusion) Help!
    That's how a lot of people read the law. I have searched and I have never seen someone charged for that offense unless they were also committing another crime at the same time(dealing drugs in school zone for example). Seems ot be more of an add on charge.

    Obviously millions of CC permit holders carry within 1000 feet of a school in another state every year, but reading the law it does seem possible to at least attempt to prosecute someone for doing it.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  22. #22
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    I wouldn't. Especially if you are OC.

    OC doesnt make you a target for criminals, it makes you a target for prosecutors and some LEO.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Scooter's Avatar
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    Ugh!!

  24. #24
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    I used slightly stronger language.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    That's how a lot of people read the law.
    Including the BATF: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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