GFSZ Question

Wolf1477 said:

Ok, had a conversation with someone yesterday who recently took her WI carry course, and she stated that her instructor told the class that you could carry (CC/OC) a firearm in your car in a school parking lot, as long as you don't exit the vehicle with the firearm, due to parking lots being exempt from posting.

Now, that's completely backwards from how I read and understood the law. The way I understood it, as long as the parking lot is within school property (grounds) the pistol must be unloaded/encased before entrance to that area.

I have to admit I'm getting confused at this point and I'd really hate to see someone get hung up on this. If I'm mistaken I'll gladly eat my words, specially since it'll make it so much easier for me to drop off/pick up
my kids at/from school if I don't have to pull over and unload/encase before driving onto the property.

I'm getting my reasoning from the CCW FAQ, which is all I could find quickly. I generally hate FAQs, but at least it cites Wis. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r

So if someone could clarify if I'm mistaken or correct I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,

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(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the
possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school
grounds;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved
by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a
contract entered into between a school in the
school zone and the individual or an employer
of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in
his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an
individual while traversing school premises for
the purpose of gaining access to public or private
lands open to hunting, if the entry on
school premises is authorized by school authorities.

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paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Class I felony. Permanent loss of voting rights.

The applicable law is very clear. 948.605:

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/605

Specifically 948.605(2)(a)Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.

948.605(2)(b) give exceptions. The only exception that would apply to a CCL holder normally, whether in a vehicle or not), is 948.605(2)(b)1r Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

If the car is on the grounds, the person is on the grounds.

So... if you want to have a firearm on school grounds, it needs to be according to 948.605(2)(b)1m A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).

which points to Federal Law which says:



So.... as you can see, you have to follow a trail but the trail shows that having a loaded firearm on school property is usually a felony.

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paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Class I felony. Permanent loss of voting rights.

The applicable law is very clear. 948.605:

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/605

Specifically 948.605(2)(a)Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.

948.605(2)(b) give exceptions. The only exception that would apply to a CCL holder normally, whether in a vehicle or not), is 948.605(2)(b)1r Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

If the car is on the grounds, the person is on the grounds.

So... if you want to have a firearm on school grounds, it needs to be according to 948.605(2)(b)1m A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).

which points to Federal Law which says:



So.... as you can see, you have to follow a trail but the trail shows that having a loaded firearm on school property is usually a felony.

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JJC said:

It seems to me that this very same statement has appeared here before. Then it also said that it came from an CCL "instructor".
I can't help but wonder if WAVE is behind this.

JJC

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bigdaddy1 said:

I brought this up a few times. The law is in contradiction of itself. One cite defines a dangerous weapon (among other things) as a firearm. Then in the GFSZ b/s they separate dangerous weapons and call firearms its own entity. I am embarrassed to say I was going to write JB and ask him to give an official opinion but I simply haven't yet. I will try to get it out as soon as possible.

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bigdaddy1 said:

I brought this up a few times. The law is in contradiction of itself. One cite defines a dangerous weapon (among other things) as a firearm. Then in the GFSZ b/s they separate dangerous weapons and call firearms its own entity. I am embarrassed to say I was going to write JB and ask him to give an official opinion but I simply haven't yet. I will try to get it out as soon as possible.

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Wolf1477 said:

I hope you're not accusing me of being part of WAVE, as it appears you are.

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MKEgal said:

I read it as the person spreading false info (the "instructor" who is telling her/his students to commit felonies) might be a plant by the antis.
Until the federal & WI "GF"SZ laws are done away with (for the children, of course) the vast majority of people have to park on the public street & leave their ppd in the car. Just hope that there's parking near the school & someone to make sure the ppd stays in the car instead of leaving the area with some urban property relocators.

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MKEgal said:

urban property relocators.

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Helorob said:

Must be related to the Property Re-distribution Specialist .

Am I correct that Wisconsin 948.605(2)(b)1r does not prohibit a Licensee from the car drop-off scenario, however, the federal GFSZ laws do prohibit? Or is there another WI Statute that covers it? I think I'm missing something here.

948.605  Gun-free school zones. 948.605(1) (1)  Definitions. In this section:
948.605(1)(a) (a) "Encased" has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).
948.605(1)(ac) (ac) "Firearm" does not include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.
948.605(1)(am) (am) "Motor vehicle" has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).
948.605(1)(b) (b) "School" has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).
948.605(1)(c) (c) "School zone" means any of the following:
948.605(1)(c)1. 1. In or on the grounds of a school.
948.605(1)(c)2. 2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.
948.605(2) (2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
948.605(2)(a)(a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
948.605(2)(b) (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
948.605(2)(b)1m. 1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
948.605(2)(b)1r. 1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
948.605(2)(b)2m. 2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
948.605(2)(b)3. 3. That is not loaded and is:
948.605(2)(b)3.a. a. Encased; or
948.605(2)(b)3.b. b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
948.605(2)(b)3m. 3m. A person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest under s. 120.13 (38).


Emphasis is mine.

Rob

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paul@paul-fisher.com said:

The problem is that 948.605(2)(b) is an exception. 1r has an exception to the exception so it is a double negative. So, while CCL holders fit half the exception of 1r, we don't the other half because it says 'except for on the school grounds'.

The proper interpretation of 1r is that CCL holders are exempted from the 1000' forfeiture but not the school grounds felony.

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Helorob said:

So the way to read this is that there are the listed exceptions, EXCEPT for the 1r Licensee. It is an attemp to exclude the Licensee from the exceptions. WOW, no wonder we have problems! I'm not sure I could find a more confusing way to say it.
The real question is what did they intend to do? Hhmmf , I got a feeling it wasn't a mistake.

Thanks for the help,

Rob

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paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Please provide a citation to the contradiction.

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bigdaddy1 said:

Chapter 939 939.22(10)
(10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or ...

Then;

 A person who uses a weapon solely for school sanctioned purposes. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(a).
 A person who engages in military activities sponsored by the federal or state government when acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(b).
 A person who Is a law enforcement officer or state certified commission warden acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(c).
 A person who is participating in a convocation authorized by school authorities in which weapons of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(d).
 A person who drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property if the weapon is not removed from the vehicle or used in any way. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(e).
 A person who possesses or uses a bow and arrow or knife while legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(f).

Looks like a pretty clear contradiction to me.

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Captain Nemo said:

A conundrum only the courts can resolve. Until then I tend to side with PPF that it is better to err on the side of caution. However, my 2c is this:

(2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
948.605(2)(a)(a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.

948.605(2)(b) (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:

948.605(2)(b)1m. 1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).

948.605(2)(b)1r. 1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

948.605(2)(b)2m. 2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.

948.605(2)(b)3. 3. That is not loaded and is:

948.605(2)(b)3.a. a. Encased; or

948.605(2)(b)3.b. b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

948.605(2)(b)3m. 3m. A person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest under s. 120.13 (38).

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I think legislative intent comes into play. 948.605(2)(b)1r is exception to the restriction placed by 948.605(2)(a)(a). Paragraph 948.605(2)(b)1r applies to only those persons that hold a concealed carry license (resident or valid non-resident). Paragraph 948.605(2)(b)1r was specifically generated as part of ACT35. If the legislative intent was to not allow entry onto school property by licensed individuals there would be no need for 948.605(2)(b)1r.

I agree, however, that because of the severe risk of a feloney conviction it is best to wait and see how the courts respond or we get legislative clarification or an AG opinion. Better yet constitutional carry.

I am not a lawyer so none of what I post is legal advice.

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A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not in or on school grounds. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.

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me said:

urban property relocators

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Helorob said:

Must be related to the Property Re-distribution Specialist .

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