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Thread: Hearing on emergency rule for reciprocity

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Hearing on emergency rule for reciprocity

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/cod...nt/emr1115.pdf


    Topic "Emergency Rule 1115" has been scheduled for a public hearing by Joint Committee for Review of Administrative Rules. Date/time: March 20, 2012 at 10:00 AM. Location: 417 North (GAR Hall).
    Topic description: Relating to the recognition by Wisconsin of concealed carry licenses issued by other states.
    Basically, it will force the DOJ to recognize states that don't do NICS checks.

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    Not Quite True

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/cod...nt/emr1115.pdf




    Basically, it will force the DOJ to recognize states that don't do NICS checks.
    What it does, in addition to recognizing states that do NICS checks (under various authorities), is allow a person in a non-NICS state to undergo NICS to qualify for WI recognition. I'm guessing that the home state would have to agree to emblazon "NICS OK" or something similar on the license/permit. A non-NICS state licensee still would not be recognized unless (1) he is able to and does undergo NICS and (2) his state indicates that fact on the license. Notation on the license is not required but it seems the only practical way of showing the information. Otherwise anybody from a Category III state would have to be called in to his home every time the issue came up.

    Wisconsin does not have reciprocity with any state (in the sense of an agreement). What it may have is coincidental mutual recognition. There is a difference.
    Last edited by apjonas; 03-15-2012 at 02:23 PM. Reason: add

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    I don't like the idea of people getting a WI license from out of state. If they can get one from their own state and we reciprocate there is no issue. If there is something preventing them from getting one and they come here to get one, that raises red flags all over. I don't believe this will help Wisconsin residents with states like Minnesota.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I don't like the idea of people getting a WI license from out of state. If they can get one from their own state and we reciprocate there is no issue. If there is something preventing them from getting one and they come here to get one, that raises red flags all over. I don't believe this will help Wisconsin residents with states like Minnesota.
    They can't the law is quite specific. You need a WI DL or WI State ID to get a WI CCL. This rule change doesn't change that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I don't like the idea of people getting a WI license from out of state. If they can get one from their own state and we reciprocate there is no issue. If there is something preventing them from getting one and they come here to get one, that raises red flags all over. I don't believe this will help Wisconsin residents with states like Minnesota.
    I suppose, then, that you really don't like all those people from states that deny constitutional rights, who are forced to get Utah or Florida non-resident permits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I don't like the idea of people getting a WI license from out of state. If they can get one from their own state and we reciprocate there is no issue. If there is something preventing them from getting one and they come here to get one, that raises red flags all over. I don't believe this will help Wisconsin residents with states like Minnesota.
    I personnaly think it would be a great idea. The state should promote it and sell it. It could bring in millons of dollars to Wis and further promote CCW. The more people who have permits , lic or what ever you want to call them the more political force we have.

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    Not Trying to Pendantic

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    They can't the law is quite specific. You need a WI DL or WI State ID to get a WI CCL. This rule change doesn't change that.
    But I think it is important to be accurate and precise. While a WI CWL is available only to WI residents, there is no statutory provision that requires possession of a specific document to apply. That is a DoJ rule/policy. Photo ID (+valid license) is a requirement to carry (with a couple of exceptions). A DL or ID does not, ipso facto, prove legal residency, which I think is the residency requirement means, not just where a person happens to be living. The DoJ makes the assumption that DL = residency.
    Last edited by apjonas; 03-16-2012 at 12:32 PM.

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    Exactly. The next logical step would be to allow nonresidents to obtain permits

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I personnaly think it would be a great idea. The state should promote it and sell it. It could bring in millons of dollars to Wis and further promote CCW. The more people who have permits , lic or what ever you want to call them the more political force we have.
    What possible reason would there be to deny non-residents Wisconsin permits? Wisconsin is ideally set up to become the non-resident permit of choice. It would bring in millions of dollars to the state and make a lot of people happy, all the while continueing to normalize firearms in the public mind.

    It would continue the trend toward recognition of permits everywhere.

    I am not a Wisconsin resident, yet I would love to be able to obtain a Wisconsin CCW permit.

    It is another incremental step toward Constitutional carry.

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    This is interesting. There is no requirement to do a NICS background check in Wisconsin to purchase a handgun but it is required to do a NICS background check to obtain a CCL in order to carry that firearm concealed but not to carry it visible. Act 35 needs an overhaul.

    When the NICS( National Instant Criminal Background Check System) was enacted in Nov. 1993 the States had the option of acting as point of contact (POC) for handgun purchases. As such those states would use their own background check system to screen handgun purchasers. Wisconsin elected to be POC for handgun purchases and use NICS to do long gun background checks. When you purchase a handgun in Wisconsin you must fill out two forms; the federal 4473 form and Wisconsin form DJ-LE-FH2. The dealer then calls the state handgun hotline 1-800-262-4867 to have a background check conducted. Now we have to undergo a national NICS check to carry the fiream concealed but not if we carry it visible? Go figure.

    These are my opinion and the requirements for handgun purchases in Wisconsin at the time I surrendered my FFL three years ago.

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    Repeal 941.23 and call Act-35 an object lesson in mouse design by a committee of elephant-philes. Wisconsin was one of the last states to write such a law and had to re-invent the wheel. Who benefited?

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    No, what I am saying (and thought it was clearly written) was that if an applicant CAN NOT GET ONE IN THEIR HOME STATE (due to various reasons) and gets one here. Admittedly Wisconsin's requirements are not particularly strict, less so than other states. If Joe Blow is not able to obtain a license in his own state because they are more strict or that state has pending legislation that may prevent that person from getting a license Wisconsin will look like the bad guys for granting him a license. I would approve of a law that provides nationwide reciprocation (the Constitution doesn't end at a states border) but can just hear the anti's crying that WE gave that criminal a license.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Bigdaddy1: Hundreds of thousands of non-residents have purchased Utah and Florida permits. A number of Wisconsonites have purchased MN permits. Percentage wise the problems have been not worth mention. Why would it be any different in Wisconsin?

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    No, what I am saying (and thought it was clearly written) was that if an applicant CAN NOT GET ONE IN THEIR HOME STATE (due to various reasons) and gets one here. Admittedly Wisconsin's requirements are not particularly strict, less so than other states. If Joe Blow is not able to obtain a license in his own state because they are more strict or that state has pending legislation that may prevent that person from getting a license Wisconsin will look like the bad guys for granting him a license. I would approve of a law that provides nationwide reciprocation (the Constitution doesn't end at a states border) but can just hear the anti's crying that WE gave that criminal a license.
    What reasons were you thinking of that would still allow this person to pass the Wisconsin requirements and background checks?
    Dave
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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    What reasons were you thinking of that would still allow this person to pass the Wisconsin requirements and background checks?
    Neither you or I know all the states CC regulations and processes, so don't get all inter-net loud at me about it. My point is if a person resides in a state that HAS a CCW system, and there is national reciprocity why would there be a need for them to apply for an out of state permit? There would be none, so the only reason someone would is they CANT get one from their home state. Unless each state shares information and has the same requirements to obtain a state concealed carry permit or license there will be those that will try to beat the system.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Bigdaddy1: Hundreds of thousands of non-residents have purchased Utah and Florida permits. A number of Wisconsonites have purchased MN permits. Percentage wise the problems have been not worth mention. Why would it be any different in Wisconsin?
    That is true, and many of those were prior to Wisconsin's license system. Also states (Minnesota is one) have denied reciprocity because Wisconsin's requirements are not as stringent as theirs. That would make some think that someone who can get a Wisconsin license would not be able to pass one of those other states requirements. I plan on applying for a UTAH permit since Minnesota wont honor our license and that is one state I visit periodical. Illinois is a lost cause, at least in the near future.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amaixner View Post
    I suppose, then, that you really don't like all those people from states that deny constitutional rights, who are forced to get Utah or Florida non-resident permits?
    Didn't say that, pretty much said the opposite.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Neither you or I know all the states CC regulations and processes, so don't get all inter-net loud at me about it. My point is if a person resides in a state that HAS a CCW system, and there is national reciprocity why would there be a need for them to apply for an out of state permit? There would be none, so the only reason someone would is they CANT get one from their home state. Unless each state shares information and has the same requirements to obtain a state concealed carry permit or license there will be those that will try to beat the system.
    So CA has a CCW system but it is may issue. Why should WI not issue a CCL to a CA resident that isnt special enough?


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    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 03-17-2012 at 07:39 PM. Reason: Stinking auto correct!

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    So CA Jason a CCW system but it is may issue. Why should WI not issue a CCL to a CA resident that isnt special enough?


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    I don't know what California's regulations are, perhaps you may but I still say I don't think its a good idea. If that person CAN NOT obtain a CCL/P in his home state, (does not meet the standards set fourth by that states statutes) then NO I don't believe he should be able to get one from Wisconsin. What if Wisconsin did grant him a WI CCL, he goes back home with national reciprocity and goes on one of California's famous shooting rampages? The Nation looks at Wisconsin as rural boobs and all of a sudden our CCL is rescinded, suspended or revamped. If with national reciprocity the requirements are standardized to eliminate the questions of assorted rules, then its all good.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I don't know what California's regulations are, perhaps you may but I still say I don't think its a good idea. If that person CAN NOT obtain a CCL/P in his home state, (does not meet the standards set fourth by that states statutes) then NO I don't believe he should be able to get one from Wisconsin. What if Wisconsin did grant him a WI CCL, he goes back home with national reciprocity and goes on one of California's famous shooting rampages? The Nation looks at Wisconsin as rural boobs and all of a sudden our CCL is rescinded, suspended or revamped. If with national reciprocity the requirements are standardized to eliminate the questions of assorted rules, then its all good.
    Here's the scoop. CA is a may issue state, what that means is that it is up to the discretion of the county sheriff as to whether or not you are worthy to get a license. This isn't a crime thing, this is a connections thing. So, you may have no criminal record and you won't qualify because you haven't been threatened 'enough'.

    Same with NY and MD, for example.

    As to whether national reciprocity will force CA to honor out of state permits for CA residents, I am not sure.

    As for WI looking like rural boobs, who cares? I don't live my life to please anyone (well, my wife sometimes).

    I find it funny that your signature says "What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?" and you support people who aren't criminals being infringed upon.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 03-17-2012 at 09:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I don't like the idea of people getting a WI license from out of state. If they can get one from their own state and we reciprocate there is no issue. If there is something preventing them from getting one and they come here to get one, that raises red flags all over. I don't believe this will help Wisconsin residents with states like Minnesota.
    I don't understand? WA will issue you a permit to carry. What makes it a "non"-resident or a resident license is your home address. What's the big deal? You go to the Sheriff's office (any sheriff if non-resident) you fill out a page of paperwork that looks very simular to the paper you fill out for the feds when you get a firearm. You give the Sheriff $55.25, he takes your fingerprints, and your permit shows up in the mail (my first one took 4 days, but then there was a weekend in between with no mail)

    What is the big problem? you don't want a permit? that is ok, just OC. (no, you don't have to put your pistol in the trunk). Been shall issue at least since 1961 when the last major change was made. OC since we became a state in 1889. The Individual RIGHT has always been there...why would you want to restrict someone just because they live in another state and are only visiting?

    Oh yes, and you can carry into the state capitol building, city council where-ever. Don't have to worry about differences in towns or cities, everywhere in WA is the same...and we have absolutely no problem with you coming to WA and spending your money on our permit...OK?
    Last edited by hermannr; 03-18-2012 at 01:18 AM.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Neither you or I know all the states CC regulations and processes, so don't get all inter-net loud at me about it....
    So since your argument is baseless and without fact, you take a pot shot at me....

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    So since your argument is baseless and without fact, you take a pot shot at me....

    Forum Rules:

    • (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
    • (6) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender-identity or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer, in the military, etc). NOTE THAT THIS RULE APPLIES TO PMs AS WELL AS FORUM POSTS!!!
    No pot shot at you, your use of the larger font and continuously embolden them is akin to Internet yelling or using ALL CAPS in my opinion. Was really meant to be a comedic response to your habit. Any way. it doesn't change the fact that you nor I have in depth knowledge of each states processes or requirements. Knowing that Minnesota has denied reciprocity because they feel our licensing process is too lax for them would indicate that someone could pass our requirements and not their own states. I do know that 1/2 of the nation will not honor Wisconsin's license so they also may feel our requirements do not match their own, are their concerns as baseless an mine? The point I am trying to make is that if national reciprocity makes all states requirements identical then there is no problem, but as it is now they are too diverse.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Here's the scoop. CA is a may issue state, what that means is that it is up to the discretion of the county sheriff as to whether or not you are worthy to get a license. This isn't a crime thing, this is a connections thing. So, you may have no criminal record and you won't qualify because you haven't been threatened 'enough'.

    Same with NY and MD, for example.

    As to whether national reciprocity will force CA to honor out of state permits for CA residents, I am not sure.

    As for WI looking like rural boobs, who cares? I don't live my life to please anyone (well, my wife sometimes).

    I find it funny that your signature says "What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?" and you support people who aren't criminals being infringed upon.
    I am still allowed to have my own opinion, my signature statement may quote a part of the 2nd amendment but I still have the 1st amendment. My issue isn't with the unfairness of a particular states restrictions, but with the way the system works. You may not care what others think about you, but if the nation screams "Look what Wisconsin did" you can bet your last dollar that schvitte here will change. The winds of change are started with the voices of the people. I may be selfish about it but I don't want to give our government any ammo to change things for the worse. Until someone smarter than me is able to decipher the legalese of the proposition and determine what it really means I will have my trepidations.

    edited to add; Yes, I am a little paranoid about it.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 03-18-2012 at 03:36 PM.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Yikes!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    No pot shot at you, your use of the larger font and continuously embolden them is akin to Internet yelling or using ALL CAPS in my opinion....
    So the rightful exercise of my First Amendment Rights depends on your opinion? This just keeps getting better and better....
    Dave
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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    So the rightful exercise of my First Amendment Rights depends on your opinion? This just keeps getting better and better....
    Yes Dave, its all about you.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 03-18-2012 at 05:50 PM.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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