Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 50

Thread: A reason to carry in Virginia beach

  1. #1
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    132

    A reason to carry in Virginia beach

    heard about this today. A little to close to home for me.
    http://www.wvec.com/my-city/vabeach/...142637086.html
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    I am not feeling very charitable this afternoon.

    It's not a reason to carry - you do not need one.

    It's a reason to use it. If not her, then the neighbor.*

    stay safe.


    * Yeah, I know - not enough info to know for sure if it would be seen as excusable should the CA decide to press the issue.
    Last edited by skidmark; 03-15-2012 at 05:23 PM. Reason: freaking fat finger typo
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  3. #3
    Regular Member The Airframer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Virginia Beach
    Posts
    171
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman2 View Post
    heard about this today. A little to close to home for me.
    http://www.wvec.com/my-city/vabeach/...142637086.html
    Thats a little too close for comfort! Thanks for posting, this is the first i've heard about this. Sad thing is that the victim could not have been armed legally walking her kids to school and all.
    It's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it...

  4. #4
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    132
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I am not feeling very charitable this afternoon.

    It's not a reason to carry - you do not need one.

    It's a reason to use it. If not her, then the neighbor.*

    stay safe.


    * Yeah, I know - not enough info to know for sure if it would be seen as excusable should the CA decide to press the issue.

    It bothers me because I walk those very same streets at night with the wife and this kid is still out there. This kid was lucky that the victim didn't ventilate his rear end on the spot. But then we would hear that "oh he was such a good kid, never did anything wrong, he didn't deserve this" and now the victim is the criminal.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  5. #5
    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Fairfax County, VA
    Posts
    943
    Quote Originally Posted by The Airframer View Post
    Thats a little too close for comfort! Thanks for posting, this is the first i've heard about this. Sad thing is that the victim could not have been armed legally walking her kids to school and all.
    Wait... why could she not have been armed? I used to walk my son to school - right up to the school's property line. Perfectly legal, as long as I never set foot on school property. Even in third grade, I could make sure he arrived at the door from the property line.

    And I have little doubt that if she had been OCing, he'd've walked on - it would have taken the starch right out of his sails.
    Last edited by Riana; 03-15-2012 at 08:43 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    VA Beach, VA
    Posts
    264
    I wouldn't have even thought twice about drawing and pulling the trigger. I don't care who it was, or why they targeted any woman no matter what the circumstances. Rape is wrong no matter the circumstances. It's just too bad she wasn't carrying. So long as somebody has a CHP and isn't imprinting I see no reason for CC under the circumstances(walking your kids to school). I mean walking to the front doors and then turning away I don't see the problem with that. If they were going inside for a considerable amount of time they might think twice but just dropping off and picking up, I don't see a problem with it. I personally don't walk my kid to school but thanks to having a CHP and the ability to leave my gun secured in my car. I choose to go home first to arm up before driving to go get the kid. Strictly because of reasons like this. I really hate seeing stuff like this because it just angers me. People say guns are bad because of stories like this, but had she had a gun as well this might not have ever happened. Not to mention this is right around the corner from where I live. If my LPO and I aren't riding the motorcycles we car pool and he lives off of Marvell Rd which if you look at the map is just on the other side of where that happened.
    Last edited by MagiK_SacK; 03-16-2012 at 09:36 PM. Reason: Never reviewed before submiting....
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by MagiK_SacK View Post
    I have my CHP, and so long as I am not imprinting I see no reason for it to be a problem. I am walking to the front doors and then turning away. If i was going inside for a considerable amount of time I might think twice but just dropping off and picking up, I do carry.
    Your CHP does not exempt you from doing other than "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school." So the following still applies:

    18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by Riana View Post
    Wait... why could she not have been armed? I used to walk my son to school - right up to the school's property line. Perfectly legal, as long as I never set foot on school property. Even in third grade, I could make sure he arrived at the door from the property line.

    And I have little doubt that if she had been OCing, he'd've walked on - it would have taken the starch right out of his sails.
    I'm not so sure about "perfectly legal, as long as I never set foot on school property" as the Gun Free School Zones Act prohibits carrying "within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school."

    I'm not saying that I think that would be otherwise enforced (assuming you weren't doing anything else wrong), but it seems that it is not "perfectly legal." Not enforced or otherwise ignored seems to be different than "perfectly legal."

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I am not feeling very charitable this afternoon.

    It's not a reason to carry - you do not need one.

    It's a reason to use it. If not her, then the neighbor.*

    stay safe.
    This was also my first and second reaction to the OP. I OC because I can and don't need any other reason to do so. Deciding when to use it is another matter altogether.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Your CHP does not exempt you from doing other than "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school." So the following still applies:

    .
    That's absolutely correct!

    CHP or not, you would be no more legal than the Gang Member who sticks his gun in his backpack and heads to school.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    I'm not so sure about "perfectly legal, as long as I never set foot on school property" as the Gun Free School Zones Act prohibits carrying "within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school."

    I'm not saying that I think that would be otherwise enforced (assuming you weren't doing anything else wrong), but it seems that it is not "perfectly legal." Not enforced or otherwise ignored seems to be different than "perfectly legal."
    There is considerable question as to the legaliy of the GFZ. It was tossed by the Courts once then slightly reworded and has been unenforced as a stand alone crime since...but you're right, it is questionable. It's also ignored by many of us.

    Now in Riana's case, it would be perfectly legal because the GFZ recognizes CHP holders which she is.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    VA Beach, VA
    Posts
    264
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Your CHP does not exempt you from doing other than "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school." So the following still applies:

    18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
    B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
    Yes, I completely understand this. Hince why I avoid walking to drop off/pick up my son. I tend to always drive just for the reason stated above. That way I am protected by law to legally have my gun.
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

  13. #13
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by The Airframer View Post
    Thats a little too close for comfort! Thanks for posting, this is the first i've heard about this. Sad thing is that the victim could not have been armed legally walking her kids to school and all.
    Yes she could have as long as she did not go onto school property and if she had a Virginia CHP. You don't have to have your CHP on your person when within a school zone and when carrying openly... you only have to have been issued one. (U.S. Code 18,922)

    (strangely, the U.S. Code mentioned above says nothing about a permit to carry a firearm)
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    I'm not so sure about "perfectly legal, as long as I never set foot on school property" as the Gun Free School Zones Act prohibits carrying "within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school."

    I'm not saying that I think that would be otherwise enforced (assuming you weren't doing anything else wrong), but it seems that it is not "perfectly legal." Not enforced or otherwise ignored seems to be different than "perfectly legal."
    There are exceptions to this. See my post #13 for this. You can walk right by a school with your sidearm openly displayed or concealed as long as you, 1) do not go onto school property and 2) have been issued a "license" (we call them permits here) to "possess" said firearm (no such thing in Virginia).
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Now in Riana's case, it would be perfectly legal because the GFZ recognizes CHP holders which she is.
    I've heard that mentioned before but I was looking through the complete text of GFZA this morning and didn't see anything there that provided exemptions for CHP holders. Is that recognition provided somewhere else? (would appreciate it if you could point me to it so that I will know what the exemption is)

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by MagiK_SacK View Post
    Yes, I completely understand this. Hince why I avoid walking to drop off/pick up my son. I tend to always drive just for the reason stated above. That way I am protected by law to legally have my gun.
    Did I misunderstand your above post where you said that you carried while "walking to the front doors and then turning away"? Protected while driving AND remaining in the vehicle, but not while walking to the front door.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    There are exceptions to this. See my post #13 for this. You can walk right by a school with your sidearm openly displayed or concealed as long as you, 1) do not go onto school property and 2) have been issued a "license" (we call them permits here) to "possess" said firearm (no such thing in Virginia).
    I'm not disagreeing with what will likely not happen (enforcement) but am saying that by the law you can't, hence it's not "perfectly legal" (which I think would refer to being explicitly allowed for by statute). 18 USC 922, which is "Unlawful Acts" says that you have to have it not loaded, locked container (and then I believe that the CHP kicks in regarding it simply being in the vehicle and you remain in the vehicle). But I'm not seeing an exemption for the distance to school property rule simply because you have a CHP. The only exemption that I see is when going onto the property, related to parking lot and drop off areas.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    There is considerable question as to the legaliy of the GFZ. It was tossed by the Courts once then slightly reworded and has been unenforced as a stand alone crime since
    Yeah, I assume you're referring to the rewording to cover the whole "interstate commerce" inclusion for applicability. I've never quite understood then how it could even apply IF it involved a gun wholly manufactured in the state in which it is then carried. The court's argument (at District court level) is that essentially all guns are moved at some time through interstate commerce, hence the jurisdiction. And I don't understand how IF they tried to enforce that they could arrest you given that it would seem that they'd have the legal obligation to prove probable cause (a reasonable belief that the gun in question was in fact regulated by interstate commerce). How can they say with certainty that the knew before arrest (if there ever was one) that they knew in advance that the particular gun you were carrying, obscured by your holster, was covered under the law. All of that was just an end around to hold off any SCOTUS examination, I think.
    Last edited by Glockster; 03-16-2012 at 10:17 AM.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Catlett, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,134
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    I've heard that mentioned before but I was looking through the complete text of GFZA this morning and didn't see anything there that provided exemptions for CHP holders. Is that recognition provided somewhere else? (would appreciate it if you could point me to it so that I will know what the exemption is)

    From http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

    "(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license
    ;
    "

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  20. #20
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    VA Beach, VA
    Posts
    264
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Did I misunderstand your above post where you said that you carried while "walking to the front doors and then turning away"? Protected while driving AND remaining in the vehicle, but not while walking to the front door.
    Given my lack of editing before hitting the reply button, no you did not misunderstand. Now that I have re-read the post I can tell you it was poorly written at best. It was ment to be from a hypothetical stand point as far as the walking to/from picking up my kid. The truth, or seriousness, in the matter is that my son rides to bus to school, stays for the after care and I get him when I get off of work. I do go after I go home to change and I do arm up, but I do leave it in the glove box and lock the car, seeing as how I have to go into the school. By reading what you have posted...

    "Your CHP does not exempt you from doing other than "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school." So the following still applies:....."

    That doesn't mention anything about not being able to leave your vehicle. So as far as I understand it in the glove box and locked while I go inside to pick up my son is legal.

    I hope that clears things up. Looking at my inital post now (the day after) it was poorly written. I guess that's what I get for posting while being angry and not reviewing what I wrote
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

    A cop pulled me over and said, "Papers..." So I said "Scissors, I win!" and drove away.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    From http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

    "(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license
    ;
    "

    Roscoe
    Right agree with what you're saying (directly saying) -- but as I understand it, that only allows for an exemption as provided under provisions of the issuing state's own law. So in Virginia, we have an allowance to enter school grounds for the purposes of traveling in vehicle to a parking lot or such. Nothing more, right? I don't see anything in VA Code that allows you to proceed from the vehicle onto the school grounds while carrying, nor an exception in GFZA for the same.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by MagiK_SacK View Post
    That doesn't mention anything about not being able to leave your vehicle. So as far as I understand it in the glove box and locked while I go inside to pick up my son is legal.
    Right, I was referring to leaving the vehicle while carrying (OC or CC) and walking to the door. If the gun is carried, you cannot leave the vehicle as I understand it.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Catlett, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,134
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Right agree with what you're saying (directly saying) -- but as I understand it, that only allows for an exemption as provided under provisions of the issuing state's own law. So in Virginia, we have an allowance to enter school grounds for the purposes of traveling in vehicle to a parking lot or such. Nothing more, right? I don't see anything in VA Code that allows you to proceed from the vehicle onto the school grounds while carrying, nor an exception in GFZA for the same.

    Your original reply in post 15 was to Riana's comment about walking right up to the school property line. The quote I provided provides an exception for CHP holders allowing them to do exactly that since there's nothing in VA law preventing carry immediately adjacent to school property.

    Roscoe
    Last edited by roscoe13; 03-16-2012 at 11:59 AM.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    From http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

    "(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license
    ;
    "

    Roscoe
    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Right agree with what you're saying (directly saying) -- but as I understand it, that only allows for an exemption as provided under provisions of the issuing state's own law. So in Virginia, we have an allowance to enter school grounds for the purposes of traveling in vehicle to a parking lot or such. Nothing more, right? I don't see anything in VA Code that allows you to proceed from the vehicle onto the school grounds while carrying, nor an exception in GFZA for the same.
    I don't think you are seeing this the way most people do, or the way it was intended. The GFSZA has nothing to do with any state law. It merely exempts a person from being in violation (of the Federal law), IF the state that they are in has licensed the person to possess the gun, using the proper background check requirement.

    Now having said that... being that a CHP is specifically granted only for carrying a handgun in a concealed fashion, it seems fairly important to note that Virginia does not issue a license for possession of a handgun. Therefore, no person in Virginia can be free from violating the GFSZA, even if they do have a CHP. (Not counting the other exemptions to the law, such as LEOs, etc.)

    It says what it says. Possession is not the same as carrying concealed, how can we make a blanket assumption that one would suffice for the other, when they are clearly not the same?

    TFred

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    Your original reply in post 15 was to Riana's comment about walking right up to the school property line. The quote I provided provides an exception for CHP holders allowing them to do exactly that since there's nothing in VA law preventing carry immediately adjacent to school property.

    Roscoe
    Not quite, I think. My original response was referring to 18.2-308.1 of Virginia Code. That specifically prohibits carrying by anyone onto school property, with the exception of "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

    And so that is the only exception then, as I've had it explained to me, to the GFZA. The GFZA only allows for exceptions provided under state law and for those licensed (presuming that this would apply to a CHP as a CHP is not a license as I understand it). The only applicable exception under VA Code is the paragraph vii. Therefore, as I understand it, there is no exception for a CHP holder to carry immediately adjacent to school property.

    But again, I'm not in any way suggesting that I think that has been enforced. I'm just saying, that is the letter of the law.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •