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A reason to carry in Virginia beach

Glockster

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From http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

"(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm -
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license
;
"

Roscoe

Right agree with what you're saying (directly saying) -- but as I understand it, that only allows for an exemption as provided under provisions of the issuing state's own law. So in Virginia, we have an allowance to enter school grounds for the purposes of traveling in vehicle to a parking lot or such. Nothing more, right? I don't see anything in VA Code that allows you to proceed from the vehicle onto the school grounds while carrying, nor an exception in GFZA for the same.
 

Glockster

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That doesn't mention anything about not being able to leave your vehicle. So as far as I understand it in the glove box and locked while I go inside to pick up my son is legal.

Right, I was referring to leaving the vehicle while carrying (OC or CC) and walking to the door. If the gun is carried, you cannot leave the vehicle as I understand it.
 

roscoe13

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Right agree with what you're saying (directly saying) -- but as I understand it, that only allows for an exemption as provided under provisions of the issuing state's own law. So in Virginia, we have an allowance to enter school grounds for the purposes of traveling in vehicle to a parking lot or such. Nothing more, right? I don't see anything in VA Code that allows you to proceed from the vehicle onto the school grounds while carrying, nor an exception in GFZA for the same.


Your original reply in post 15 was to Riana's comment about walking right up to the school property line. The quote I provided provides an exception for CHP holders allowing them to do exactly that since there's nothing in VA law preventing carry immediately adjacent to school property.

Roscoe
 
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TFred

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From http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

"(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm -
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license
;
"

Roscoe

Right agree with what you're saying (directly saying) -- but as I understand it, that only allows for an exemption as provided under provisions of the issuing state's own law. So in Virginia, we have an allowance to enter school grounds for the purposes of traveling in vehicle to a parking lot or such. Nothing more, right? I don't see anything in VA Code that allows you to proceed from the vehicle onto the school grounds while carrying, nor an exception in GFZA for the same.
I don't think you are seeing this the way most people do, or the way it was intended. The GFSZA has nothing to do with any state law. It merely exempts a person from being in violation (of the Federal law), IF the state that they are in has licensed the person to possess the gun, using the proper background check requirement.

Now having said that... being that a CHP is specifically granted only for carrying a handgun in a concealed fashion, it seems fairly important to note that Virginia does not issue a license for possession of a handgun. Therefore, no person in Virginia can be free from violating the GFSZA, even if they do have a CHP. (Not counting the other exemptions to the law, such as LEOs, etc.)

It says what it says. Possession is not the same as carrying concealed, how can we make a blanket assumption that one would suffice for the other, when they are clearly not the same?

TFred
 

Glockster

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Your original reply in post 15 was to Riana's comment about walking right up to the school property line. The quote I provided provides an exception for CHP holders allowing them to do exactly that since there's nothing in VA law preventing carry immediately adjacent to school property.

Roscoe

Not quite, I think. My original response was referring to § 18.2-308.1 of Virginia Code. That specifically prohibits carrying by anyone onto school property, with the exception of "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

And so that is the only exception then, as I've had it explained to me, to the GFZA. The GFZA only allows for exceptions provided under state law and for those licensed (presuming that this would apply to a CHP as a CHP is not a license as I understand it). The only applicable exception under VA Code is the paragraph vii. Therefore, as I understand it, there is no exception for a CHP holder to carry immediately adjacent to school property.

But again, I'm not in any way suggesting that I think that has been enforced. I'm just saying, that is the letter of the law.
 

TFred

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Not quite, I think. My original response was referring to § 18.2-308.1 of Virginia Code. That specifically prohibits carrying by anyone onto school property, with the exception of "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

And so that is the only exception then, as I've had it explained to me, to the GFZA. The GFZA only allows for exceptions provided under state law and for those licensed (presuming that this would apply to a CHP as a CHP is not a license as I understand it). The only applicable exception under VA Code is the paragraph vii. Therefore, as I understand it, there is no exception for a CHP holder to carry immediately adjacent to school property.

But again, I'm not in any way suggesting that I think that has been enforced. I'm just saying, that is the letter of the law.
Where are you getting the part in bold? I don't recall any part of GFSZA that calls out any state laws. I will admit I haven't read it carefully in quite some time.

And also, you are completely overlooking this part of 18.2-308.1: "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

TFred
 
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SouthernBoy

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I'm not disagreeing with what will likely not happen (enforcement) but am saying that by the law you can't, hence it's not "perfectly legal" (which I think would refer to being explicitly allowed for by statute). 18 USC § 922, which is "Unlawful Acts" says that you have to have it not loaded, locked container (and then I believe that the CHP kicks in regarding it simply being in the vehicle and you remain in the vehicle). But I'm not seeing an exemption for the distance to school property rule simply because you have a CHP. The only exemption that I see is when going onto the property, related to parking lot and drop off areas.

Yes you can and there is legal statute in U.S. Code 18,922.

"(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities."
 

roscoe13

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Now having said that... being that a CHP is specifically granted only for carrying a handgun in a concealed fashion, it seems fairly important to note that Virginia does not issue a license for possession of a handgun. Therefore, no person in Virginia can be free from violating the GFSZA, even if they do have a CHP. (Not counting the other exemptions to the law, such as LEOs, etc.)

It says what it says. Possession is not the same as carrying concealed, how can we make a blanket assumption that one would suffice for the other, when they are clearly not the same?

TFred

A VA CHP is a license to possess a concealed handgun. Plain and simple.

Roscoe
 

roscoe13

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Not quite, I think.

You don't think you wrote what you wrote????

Go back and read what YOU quoted & wrote in post 15 and Riana's situation as described in post 5


My original response was referring to § 18.2-308.1 of Virginia Code. That specifically prohibits carrying by anyone onto school property, with the exception of "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

And so that is the only exception then, as I've had it explained to me, to the GFZA. The GFZA only allows for exceptions provided under state law and for those licensed (presuming that this would apply to a CHP as a CHP is not a license as I understand it). The only applicable exception under VA Code is the paragraph vii. Therefore, as I understand it, there is no exception for a CHP holder to carry immediately adjacent to school property.

But again, I'm not in any way suggesting that I think that has been enforced. I'm just saying, that is the letter of the law.

Cite for what's in bold? That's in clear and absolute contradiction of what's actually written in the law as I posted earlier.

Roscoe
 
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SouthernBoy

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I don't think you are seeing this the way most people do, or the way it was intended. The GFSZA has nothing to do with any state law. It merely exempts a person from being in violation (of the Federal law), IF the state that they are in has licensed the person to possess the gun, using the proper background check requirement.

Now having said that... being that a CHP is specifically granted only for carrying a handgun in a concealed fashion, it seems fairly important to note that Virginia does not issue a license for possession of a handgun. Therefore, no person in Virginia can be free from violating the GFSZA, even if they do have a CHP. (Not counting the other exemptions to the law, such as LEOs, etc.)

It says what it says. Possession is not the same as carrying concealed, how can we make a blanket assumption that one would suffice for the other, when they are clearly not the same?

TFred

This is true. However to possess something means to have it in your hands and/or under your control (holster, car seat, etc.). It does not infer ownership. You can possess your neighbor's gun. The problem with the verbiage of 18,922 is what you said in your second paragraph; "Now having said that... being that a CHP is specifically granted only for carrying a handgun in a concealed fashion, it seems fairly important to note that Virginia does not issue a license for possession of a handgun".

But Virginia does require part of this part of the code; "and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license". The wording of this section would only be satisfied by a few states (I don't know how many) which require a purchase permit or license prior to transferring the firearm to the purchaser.

It's crazy. You really have to wonder who writes these laws and what their level of knowledge is. So reading this would seem to indicate that Virginia is good to go for the simple fact that there is no requirement in our state to obtain a "license" before gaining possession of a firearm. I vote for Virginia with this one.
 

SouthernBoy

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A VA CHP is a license to possess a concealed handgun. Plain and simple.

Roscoe

The words "license" and "permit" are synonyms according to the dictionary but that does not necessarily mean according to legalities. I do agree with you in this regard.... that these words can and are commonly used interchangeably and are therefore understood to convey the same meaning. If I had to guess, the crux of this part of 18,922 is the part which speaks to verification by state law enforcement authorities as to the authorization of the individual to "possess" firearms. Still there is that nasty little word "license" hovering about. I would bet very few Virginia LEO's are going to arrest someone for carrying a firearm as they walk their dog or their child down a street adjacent to a school.
 

TFred

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A VA CHP is a license to possess a concealed handgun. Plain and simple.

Roscoe
There's no such thing as a "concealed handgun".

There is a handgun that is carried in a concealed manner. Concealed modifies how it is carried, not the gun itself. We have shortened the convention in language to where we all understand what you mean when you say it, but it is not accurate to say it that way.

Virginia does not issue a license to possess, only to conceal. One is for the item itself, the other is for how to carry it.

I fully realize that these are semantics, and we could each argue until we are blue in the face... But I think I'm "righter". :D

TFred
 

roscoe13

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There's no such thing as a "concealed handgun".

Bull pucky...

There is a handgun that is carried in a concealed manner. Concealed modifies how it is carried, not the gun itself. We have shortened the convention in language to where we all understand what you mean when you say it, but it is not accurate to say it that way.

Virginia does not issue a license to possess, only to conceal. One is for the item itself, the other is for how to carry it.

OK, to use your own construction, a VA CHP is license to possess a handgun that is concealed.

I fully realize that these are semantics, and we could each argue until we are blue in the face... But I think I'm "righter". :D

TFred

I doubt it :banana:

Roscoe
 

TFred

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OK, to use your own construction, a VA CHP is license to possess a handgun that is concealed.
So that would necessarily mean then that in order to comply with the GFSZA, one MUST conceal carry, and Open Carriers within 1000 feet of a school property are felons, whether they have a CHP or not. Because as soon as the gun becomes un-concealed, the carrier is no longer licensed.

TFred
 

roscoe13

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So that would necessarily mean then that in order to comply with the GFSZA, one MUST conceal carry, and Open Carriers within 1000 feet of a school property are felons, whether they have a CHP or not. Because as soon as the gun becomes un-concealed, the carrier is no longer licensed.

TFred

Not necessarily, as the GFSZA doesn't say you have to possess in the way in which you're licensed, but I'd agree it's a grey area at best. Good thing we didn't hijack this thread or anything :rolleyes:

Roscoe
 

Glockster

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LOL...thank goodness I've been tied up for a bit as I'd hate to have to answer each of all of those (trying to get my "day job" done!).

I think that the most important points out of all of this that we can probably all agree to is that things are confusing as heck, that the GFZA is mucked up and makes things confusing. In the end all the more reason for constitutional carry as I think that things would start to be a whole lot clearer in situations like this.

Sorry, back to my day-job! :monkey
 
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