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Thread: A reason to carry in Virginia beach

  1. #26
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Not quite, I think. My original response was referring to § 18.2-308.1 of Virginia Code. That specifically prohibits carrying by anyone onto school property, with the exception of "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

    And so that is the only exception then, as I've had it explained to me, to the GFZA. The GFZA only allows for exceptions provided under state law and for those licensed (presuming that this would apply to a CHP as a CHP is not a license as I understand it). The only applicable exception under VA Code is the paragraph vii. Therefore, as I understand it, there is no exception for a CHP holder to carry immediately adjacent to school property.

    But again, I'm not in any way suggesting that I think that has been enforced. I'm just saying, that is the letter of the law.
    Where are you getting the part in bold? I don't recall any part of GFSZA that calls out any state laws. I will admit I haven't read it carefully in quite some time.

    And also, you are completely overlooking this part of 18.2-308.1: "The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 03-16-2012 at 12:54 PM.

  2. #27
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with what will likely not happen (enforcement) but am saying that by the law you can't, hence it's not "perfectly legal" (which I think would refer to being explicitly allowed for by statute). 18 USC § 922, which is "Unlawful Acts" says that you have to have it not loaded, locked container (and then I believe that the CHP kicks in regarding it simply being in the vehicle and you remain in the vehicle). But I'm not seeing an exemption for the distance to school property rule simply because you have a CHP. The only exemption that I see is when going onto the property, related to parking lot and drop off areas.
    Yes you can and there is legal statute in U.S. Code 18,922.

    "(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities."
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  3. #28
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Right, I was referring to leaving the vehicle while carrying (OC or CC) and walking to the door. If the gun is carried, you cannot leave the vehicle as I understand it.
    Yes, you may not leave your vehicle when on school property dropping off or picking up someone when you have a firearm on your person.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  4. #29
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Now having said that... being that a CHP is specifically granted only for carrying a handgun in a concealed fashion, it seems fairly important to note that Virginia does not issue a license for possession of a handgun. Therefore, no person in Virginia can be free from violating the GFSZA, even if they do have a CHP. (Not counting the other exemptions to the law, such as LEOs, etc.)

    It says what it says. Possession is not the same as carrying concealed, how can we make a blanket assumption that one would suffice for the other, when they are clearly not the same?

    TFred
    A VA CHP is a license to possess a concealed handgun. Plain and simple.

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  5. #30
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    Not quite, I think.
    You don't think you wrote what you wrote????

    Go back and read what YOU quoted & wrote in post 15 and Riana's situation as described in post 5


    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    My original response was referring to § 18.2-308.1 of Virginia Code. That specifically prohibits carrying by anyone onto school property, with the exception of "(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

    And so that is the only exception then, as I've had it explained to me, to the GFZA. The GFZA only allows for exceptions provided under state law and for those licensed (presuming that this would apply to a CHP as a CHP is not a license as I understand it). The only applicable exception under VA Code is the paragraph vii. Therefore, as I understand it, there is no exception for a CHP holder to carry immediately adjacent to school property.

    But again, I'm not in any way suggesting that I think that has been enforced. I'm just saying, that is the letter of the law.
    Cite for what's in bold? That's in clear and absolute contradiction of what's actually written in the law as I posted earlier.

    Roscoe
    Last edited by roscoe13; 03-16-2012 at 01:12 PM.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  6. #31
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I don't think you are seeing this the way most people do, or the way it was intended. The GFSZA has nothing to do with any state law. It merely exempts a person from being in violation (of the Federal law), IF the state that they are in has licensed the person to possess the gun, using the proper background check requirement.

    Now having said that... being that a CHP is specifically granted only for carrying a handgun in a concealed fashion, it seems fairly important to note that Virginia does not issue a license for possession of a handgun. Therefore, no person in Virginia can be free from violating the GFSZA, even if they do have a CHP. (Not counting the other exemptions to the law, such as LEOs, etc.)

    It says what it says. Possession is not the same as carrying concealed, how can we make a blanket assumption that one would suffice for the other, when they are clearly not the same?

    TFred
    This is true. However to possess something means to have it in your hands and/or under your control (holster, car seat, etc.). It does not infer ownership. You can possess your neighbor's gun. The problem with the verbiage of 18,922 is what you said in your second paragraph; "Now having said that... being that a CHP is specifically granted only for carrying a handgun in a concealed fashion, it seems fairly important to note that Virginia does not issue a license for possession of a handgun".

    But Virginia does require part of this part of the code; "and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license". The wording of this section would only be satisfied by a few states (I don't know how many) which require a purchase permit or license prior to transferring the firearm to the purchaser.

    It's crazy. You really have to wonder who writes these laws and what their level of knowledge is. So reading this would seem to indicate that Virginia is good to go for the simple fact that there is no requirement in our state to obtain a "license" before gaining possession of a firearm. I vote for Virginia with this one.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  7. #32
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    A VA CHP is a license to possess a concealed handgun. Plain and simple.

    Roscoe
    The words "license" and "permit" are synonyms according to the dictionary but that does not necessarily mean according to legalities. I do agree with you in this regard.... that these words can and are commonly used interchangeably and are therefore understood to convey the same meaning. If I had to guess, the crux of this part of 18,922 is the part which speaks to verification by state law enforcement authorities as to the authorization of the individual to "possess" firearms. Still there is that nasty little word "license" hovering about. I would bet very few Virginia LEO's are going to arrest someone for carrying a firearm as they walk their dog or their child down a street adjacent to a school.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  8. #33
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    A VA CHP is a license to possess a concealed handgun. Plain and simple.

    Roscoe
    There's no such thing as a "concealed handgun".

    There is a handgun that is carried in a concealed manner. Concealed modifies how it is carried, not the gun itself. We have shortened the convention in language to where we all understand what you mean when you say it, but it is not accurate to say it that way.

    Virginia does not issue a license to possess, only to conceal. One is for the item itself, the other is for how to carry it.

    I fully realize that these are semantics, and we could each argue until we are blue in the face... But I think I'm "righter".

    TFred

  9. #34
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    There's no such thing as a "concealed handgun".
    Bull pucky...

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post

    There is a handgun that is carried in a concealed manner. Concealed modifies how it is carried, not the gun itself. We have shortened the convention in language to where we all understand what you mean when you say it, but it is not accurate to say it that way.

    Virginia does not issue a license to possess, only to conceal. One is for the item itself, the other is for how to carry it.
    OK, to use your own construction, a VA CHP is license to possess a handgun that is concealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I fully realize that these are semantics, and we could each argue until we are blue in the face... But I think I'm "righter".

    TFred
    I doubt it

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  10. #35
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    OK, to use your own construction, a VA CHP is license to possess a handgun that is concealed.
    So that would necessarily mean then that in order to comply with the GFSZA, one MUST conceal carry, and Open Carriers within 1000 feet of a school property are felons, whether they have a CHP or not. Because as soon as the gun becomes un-concealed, the carrier is no longer licensed.

    TFred

  11. #36
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    So that would necessarily mean then that in order to comply with the GFSZA, one MUST conceal carry, and Open Carriers within 1000 feet of a school property are felons, whether they have a CHP or not. Because as soon as the gun becomes un-concealed, the carrier is no longer licensed.

    TFred
    Not necessarily, as the GFSZA doesn't say you have to possess in the way in which you're licensed, but I'd agree it's a grey area at best. Good thing we didn't hijack this thread or anything

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  12. #37
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Are you two married?


    (I'm going to crawl back in my hole now)
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  13. #38
    Regular Member drdan01's Avatar
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    LOL...thank goodness I've been tied up for a bit as I'd hate to have to answer each of all of those (trying to get my "day job" done!).

    I think that the most important points out of all of this that we can probably all agree to is that things are confusing as heck, that the GFZA is mucked up and makes things confusing. In the end all the more reason for constitutional carry as I think that things would start to be a whole lot clearer in situations like this.

    Sorry, back to my day-job!

  14. #39
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Are you two married?


    (I'm going to crawl back in my hole now)
    Ha ha, no, we're just friends on the same side of a stupid law that needs to go away.

    I hope he would agree with that assessment.

    TFred

  15. #40
    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Ha ha, no, we're just friends on the same side of a stupid law that needs to go away.

    I hope he would agree with that assessment.

    TFred
    +1
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  16. #41
    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Now in Riana's case, it would be perfectly legal because the GFZ recognizes CHP holders which she is.
    Actually, that applies now. Back then, I did not yet have a CHP. When my son was in 3rd grade, I lived in a house which shared a property line with the school - I would walk with my son to our backyard gate and watch him go across the field to the school building. On private property the entire time.

    Still perfectly legal.

  17. #42
    Regular Member drdan01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Ha ha, no, we're just friends on the same side of a stupid law that needs to go away.

    I hope he would agree with that assessment.
    Oh yeah, definitely at least a +1 on that!

  18. #43
    Regular Member sparkman2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drdan01 View Post
    This was also my first and second reaction to the OP. I OC because I can and don't need any other reason to do so. Deciding when to use it is another matter altogether.
    When I posted the link to the news story my intention was to inform the people who come to this forum that this crime occurred in VB and that an innocent woman was assaulted by a kid who used a gun. Not every one who views this site is a gun owner, sometimes they view this site to gather information about the laws in our state, to see what other people are saying about OCing. But when they see things like this, and it hits so close to where they live, it might get them to thinking that they need to start taking the necessary precautions to protect themselves when they go out at night or in this case the morning. Your right, carrying is one thing but using it is another.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." Thomas Jefferson (quoting Cesare Beccaria)

  19. #44
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    So that would necessarily mean then that in order to comply with the GFSZA, one MUST conceal carry, and Open Carriers within 1000 feet of a school property are felons, whether they have a CHP or not. Because as soon as the gun becomes un-concealed, the carrier is no longer licensed.

    TFred


    Did you read what else it said? Must have a licence from that STATE, meaning out of state CCW's arn't valid for GFSZA



    The only excetion I could find was

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone. if you are just passing through the state, say NC/SC on the highway.


    This is soooooooo screwed up and see why people have like 5 different CCW permits. I know a guy with 3 and another with 5.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 03-19-2012 at 01:17 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  20. #45
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    IANAL but my theory on the GFSZA is; by saying your permit/license issued by another state is valid in VA, VA has issued a de facto permit/license.

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  21. #46
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Are you two married?


    (I'm going to crawl back in my hole now)
    +1


  22. #47
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    So that would necessarily mean then that in order to comply with the GFSZA, one MUST conceal carry, and Open Carriers within 1000 feet of a school property are felons, whether they have a CHP or not. Because as soon as the gun becomes un-concealed, the carrier is no longer licensed.

    TFred
    I really thought better of you.

    The Commonwealth of Virginia issued a CHP (the license) to me because I was not otherwise prohibited from receiving it. Should I travel to Canada, I am still licensed even though I do not have my handgun with me. Should I sell off all my handguns I would remain licensed until the expiration date of the CHP.

    The license (CHP in the case of Virginia residents) is merely an indicator of permission from the Commonwealth to do an otherwise illegal act.

    How you determined otherwise defies not only logic but my previous estimation of your understanding of the mechanics of the law.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  23. #48
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I really thought better of you.

    The Commonwealth of Virginia issued a CHP (the license) to me because I was not otherwise prohibited from receiving it. Should I travel to Canada, I am still licensed even though I do not have my handgun with me. Should I sell off all my handguns I would remain licensed until the expiration date of the CHP.

    The license (CHP in the case of Virginia residents) is merely an indicator of permission from the Commonwealth to do an otherwise illegal act.

    How you determined otherwise defies not only logic but my previous estimation of your understanding of the mechanics of the law.

    stay safe.
    Context, context, context. (Ha ha, I guess I could say that I thought better of you, to take the context of a post in consideration to ascertain the full meaning!)

    That post was at the end of a dialog with another poster over what I considered to be a convoluted interpretation of the meaning of what a CHP "licenses". My post was merely the logical extension of what I considered to be invalid logic. And it was 4 days ago. Long out of my mind.



    TFred

  24. #49
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    Did you read what else it said? Must have a licence from that STATE, meaning out of state CCW's arn't valid for GFSZA

    [snipped images for space]

    The only excetion I could find was

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone. if you are just passing through the state, say NC/SC on the highway.


    This is soooooooo screwed up and see why people have like 5 different CCW permits. I know a guy with 3 and another with 5.
    Are you aware that the source you cite (these letters) are just that... letters from some flunky at BATFE? They're just another government worker's opinion, and carry no weight of law, that I am aware of.

    And as others posted, I also agree, a "license" is the intangible state of being granted permission to do something. Virginia says you are licensed to carry a concealed handgun if you have been qualified by another particular state to do the same thing. Utah or Florida have no authority to "license" me to carry in Virginia, only Virginia can do that, but they do that based on the qualifications that I have shown by obtaining the permit from the other state.

    As with all the GFSZA stuff, it's all theoretical until it's tried in court, and I don't think that will ever happen because the "suspended hammer" they can hold over every law-abiding citizen right now is much more effective than the hammer taken away by another finding of "unconstitutional".

    TFred

  25. #50
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Context, context, context. .... And it was 4 days ago. Long out of my mind.



    TFred

    Didn't realize there was a time limit for getting around to all the posts. At least I did give you the context so you could go back and refresh your memory. Since you were able to do that, I'll give you a passing mark on temporal orientation. Now if we coud just say the same about you on the other three axes.

    And, as you know, I would not have played games with invalid logic. But that's just me.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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