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Thread: Anti OC'ers just don't get it

  1. #1
    Regular Member IdahoOpenCarry's Avatar
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    Anti OC'ers just don't get it

    Anti-OC’ers and the Brady Campaign are successfully defeating Open Carry and the 2nd Amendment. Despite the evidence that every argument they have ever offered has been destroyed by facts and statistics, the misinformation advanced by anti-OC’ers and the anti-gun left has led to their success in eliminating OC in California and successfully defeating the effort to reestablish Open Carry in Florida.

    Our conclusion: anti-OC’ers who claim to support the 2nd Amendment, actually promote and provide ammunition to the Brady Campaign and the anti-gun left.
    Unfortunately, the argument has become Open Carry vs Concealed Carry, which it is not. We are devouring each other in an argument that should not be happening. We are brothers and sisters in the same battle to preserve our rights, and Open Carry is the beautiful, bold face of the 2nd Amendment.

    Anthropologist Charles Springwood described it correctly when he said that open carriers are trying to “naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent, and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood.”

    I would encourage all who support Open Carry to not get caught up in the silly anti-OC arguments. They will never listen to the facts and statistics. When you see an anti-OC argument, send them a brief response saying, “Opposition to Open Carry is an attack on the 2nd Amendment”, and, since they are supporting the anti-gun left, send them the link to the Brady Campaign.

    Tony@IdahoOpenCarry.org
    Open Carry is the Beautiful Bold Face of the 2nd Amendment
    Last edited by IdahoOpenCarry; 03-17-2012 at 04:02 PM.

  2. #2
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    Good post! I feel the same way. Ive seen people who claim to support the 2A only to never,ever even consider OC. The truth is that OC IS the 2A.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    To the OP: Really don't see it quite that way.

    California has a history of knee jerk over-reaction on many issues and a particularly well ingrained philosophy of guns are bad. There is also a major nanny state commitment that has virtually bankrupted the government. It is from this inner beliefs that IMO the restriction on rights emanates, but not from the Brady Campaign. All in all the Brady Campaign is a shell organization - hollow and empty of any extreme level of membership. Are funds made available to them? Perhaps through George Soros and a number of Hollywood antis, but not great, overwhelming popular movement.

    Look at other states. A vast majority have seen outstanding gains in recovering the RKBA and OC is growing - California is an enigma and an exception to the rule.

    When we hear anti OC rhetoric we can ill afford to let it pass unanswered. Logic and fact has been winning the battles and turning the tide of the war. More important is taking action before they attack - that we do by planning, lobbying and working with our respective legislatures - not by simply claiming its our right and surely not by sending them to the Brady Bunch.

    I do like and agree with your signature line:
    Open Carry is the Beautiful Bold Face of the 2nd Amendment
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Good Post

    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoOpenCarry View Post
    Anti-OC’ers and the Brady Campaign are successfully defeating Open Carry and the 2nd Amendment. Despite the evidence that every argument they have ever offered has been destroyed by facts and statistics, the misinformation advanced by anti-OC’ers and the anti-gun left has led to their success in eliminating OC in California and successfully defeating the effort to reestablish Open Carry in Florida.

    Our conclusion: anti-OC’ers who claim to support the 2nd Amendment, actually promote and provide ammunition to the Brady Campaign and the anti-gun left.
    Unfortunately, the argument has become Open Carry vs Concealed Carry, which it is not. We are devouring each other in an argument that should not be happening. We are brothers and sisters in the same battle to preserve our rights, and Open Carry is the beautiful, bold face of the 2nd Amendment.

    Anthropologist Charles Springwood described it correctly when he said that open carriers are trying to “naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent, and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood.”

    I would encourage all who support Open Carry to not get caught up in the silly anti-OC arguments. They will never listen to the facts and statistics. When you see an anti-OC argument, send them a brief response saying, “Opposition to Open Carry is an attack on the 2nd Amendment”, and, since they are supporting the anti-gun left, send them the link to the Brady Campaign.

    Tony@IdahoOpenCarry.org
    Open Carry is the Beautiful Bold Face of the 2nd Amendment
    I never understood the drive for OC until I read that quote from Springwood. Without looking up the context, I think he meant it as an insult, but for those of us with an interest in our foundational history, that statement really becomes a compliment.

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    new member in nm

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    To the OP: Really don't see it quite that way.

    California has a history of knee jerk over-reaction on many issues and a particularly well ingrained philosophy of guns are bad. There is also a major nanny state commitment that has virtually bankrupted the government. It is from this inner beliefs that IMO the restriction on rights emanates, but not from the Brady Campaign. All in all the Brady Campaign is a shell organization - hollow and empty of any extreme level of membership. Are funds made available to them? Perhaps through George Soros and a number of Hollywood antis, but not great, overwhelming popular movement.

    Look at other states. A vast majority have seen outstanding gains in recovering the RKBA and OC is growing - California is an enigma and an exception to the rule.

    When we hear anti OC rhetoric we can ill afford to let it pass unanswered. Logic and fact has been winning the battles and turning the tide of the war. More important is taking action before they attack - that we do by planning, lobbying and working with our respective legislatures - not by simply claiming its our right and surely not by sending them to the Brady Bunch.

    I do like and agree with your signature line:
    Open Carry is the Beautiful Bold Face of the 2nd Amendment
    I like what was said about the reaction in ca.... here in nm most think guns are bad and only for police. I disagree
    Last edited by chevy427; 03-28-2012 at 12:29 AM. Reason: spelling

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevy427 View Post
    I like what was said about the reaction in ca.... here in nm most think guns are bad and only for police. I disagree
    Welcome to OCDO chevy427.

    New Mexico has a strong tradition in self-reliance and of taking responsibility for one self.

    BTW - the ZL1 was to die for.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoOpenCarry View Post
    Anti-OC’ers and the Brady Campaign are successfully defeating Open Carry and the 2nd Amendment. Despite the evidence that every argument they have ever offered has been destroyed by facts and statistics, the misinformation advanced by anti-OC’ers and the anti-gun left has led to their success in eliminating OC in California and successfully defeating the effort to reestablish Open Carry in Florida.

    Our conclusion: anti-OC’ers who claim to support the 2nd Amendment, actually promote and provide ammunition to the Brady Campaign and the anti-gun left.
    Unfortunately, the argument has become Open Carry vs Concealed Carry, which it is not. We are devouring each other in an argument that should not be happening. We are brothers and sisters in the same battle to preserve our rights, and Open Carry is the beautiful, bold face of the 2nd Amendment.

    Anthropologist Charles Springwood described it correctly when he said that open carriers are trying to “naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent, and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood.”

    I would encourage all who support Open Carry to not get caught up in the silly anti-OC arguments. They will never listen to the facts and statistics. When you see an anti-OC argument, send them a brief response saying, “Opposition to Open Carry is an attack on the 2nd Amendment”, and, since they are supporting the anti-gun left, send them the link to the Brady Campaign.

    Tony@IdahoOpenCarry.org
    Open Carry is the Beautiful Bold Face of the 2nd Amendment
    The Brady Bunch is anti-gun. The anti-OC crowd is not necessarily anti-gun. You do more harm to the 'cause' by associating the pro-2A CC-only crowd with the Brady Bunch. Anti-OC is not the issue, anti-gun is the issue.

    I don't use the ignore function, but I seriously considered using it for you.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The Brady Bunch is anti-gun. The anti-OC crowd is not necessarily anti-gun. You do more harm to the 'cause' by associating the pro-2A CC-only crowd with the Brady Bunch. Anti-OC is not the issue, anti-gun is the issue.

    I don't use the ignore function, but I seriously considered using it for you.
    How is he "wrong" on this, exactly? It's pretty much what it amounts to: helping our enemies, by so vocally, and forcefully opposing our efforts at OC.
    It's a debate that SHOULDNT be happening, indeed.
    OC and/or CC should not have to be exclusive to one or the other. We should be able to carry-period. Whether our personal preference/choice in the matter is to do so OC or CC.

  9. #9
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    How is he "wrong" on this, exactly? It's pretty much what it amounts to: helping our enemies, by so vocally, and forcefully opposing our efforts at OC.
    It's a debate that SHOULDNT be happening, indeed.
    OC and/or CC should not have to be exclusive to one or the other. We should be able to carry-period. Whether our personal preference/choice in the matter is to do so OC or CC.
    He is wrong to associate the anti-OC crowd who are, "or claim to be", pro-2A with the Brady Bunch. We here on OCDO can debate OC vs. CC all day long, good debate to have, but telling our fellow 2A supports they are no better than the Brady Bunch because they are anti-OC is wrong. The vast majority of pro-2A folks do not carry at all. They being lumped in with the Brady Bunch because they disagree with OC is not how we get 'those' anti-OC folks to support regaining our unfettered 2A right.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    It seems with every cause anybody wants to stand up for, nobody these days can all get together and stand up in numbers for bickering of details. CC, OC, NC, doesn't matter. If the 2A is infringed upon (last I checked, it shall not be, but whatever) none of us will have it. If I had a dime for everyone I've told this to I'd be rich, but if we want to make a difference, all pro-2A people should fight for what they agree upon, which is being pro-2A. Once we are secure and happy with our God given rights, and sure they aren't taken, then we can pointlessly bicker over things like this.

    If we went out like the OP, and told everyone who didn't support OC they couldn't be truly pro-2A, any OC'ers are going to be looked down upon as "those crazies who think we all have to show our guns to be pro-2A" and won't even sympathize with us, regardless if what we are doing is pro-2A like they are or not.

    If someone is willing to help you for one cause, don't burn your bridges with them over another.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coltman151 View Post
    It seems with every cause anybody wants to stand up for, nobody these days can all get together and stand up in numbers for bickering of details. CC, OC, NC, doesn't matter. If the 2A is infringed upon (last I checked, it shall not be, but whatever) none of us will have it. If I had a dime for everyone I've told this to I'd be rich, but if we want to make a difference, all pro-2A people should fight for what they agree upon, which is being pro-2A. Once we are secure and happy with our God given rights, and sure they aren't taken, then we can pointlessly bicker over things like this.

    If we went out like the OP, and told everyone who didn't support OC they couldn't be truly pro-2A, any OC'ers are going to be looked down upon as "those crazies who think we all have to show our guns to be pro-2A" and won't even sympathize with us, regardless if what we are doing is pro-2A like they are or not.

    If someone is willing to help you for one cause, don't burn your bridges with them over another.
    My take, not speaking for John or Mike -

    While OCDO is primarily focused on open carry (oc), one of the principal rules is that we not criticize other gun rights organizations, excepting as to their refusal or inability to accept OC. That has somewhat been extended to individuals posting here, but not to stifle legitimate dialog/exchange of information. Any concern requiring moderation is directed at the occasional poster that either attacks or insults blatantly w/o required courtesy. Central to our standards is accepting others right to make individual, personal choices as to whether to OC, CC, or even noC - paramount is the defense of that right to choose. Respect is very much a two-way street; however, responsibility rests with each one of us.

    Embrace all that you can and educate from a positive position of friendship, courtesy and respect. In case someone hasn't noticed, we are succeeding - admirably so.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    My take, not speaking for John or Mike -

    While OCDO is primarily focused on open carry (oc), one of the principal rules is that we not criticize other gun rights organizations, excepting as to their refusal or inability to accept OC. That has somewhat been extended to individuals posting here, but not to stifle legitimate dialog/exchange of information. Any concern requiring moderation is directed at the occasional poster that either attacks or insults blatantly w/o required courtesy. Central to our standards is accepting others right to make individual, personal choices as to whether to OC, CC, or even noC - paramount is the defense of that right to choose. Respect is very much a two-way street; however, responsibility rests with each one of us.

    Embrace all that you can and educate from a positive position of friendship, courtesy and respect. In case someone hasn't noticed, we are succeeding - admirably so.
    And its because of the knowledge and persistence, not the name calling and twisting of facts, that has made this site and its cause successful. Without a doubt one of the most noticeable things about this site is its member's knowledge.

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