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Thread: Greenfield PD, concealed carry arrest.

  1. #1
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    Greenfield PD, concealed carry arrest.

    Hey all, long time no chat if anyone of you remember me. I would very much like some insight from you all.

    Although written in first person, story is not about me.

    My friend and I were driving through greenfield to go to another friend's house to enjoy the weather. I was in the front passenger seat. Suddenly, we are being pulled over. The officer walked over to my window on the passenger side (probably to stay out of traffic) said he stopped us because the driver was tailgating the car in front of us. He took our licenses, went back to his squad for a few minutes. When he walks back over to me asked what I was reaching for when he pulled us over, and why I was so nervous. (I reached for nothing, nor was I nervous.) I was laughing at my friend because I CONSTANTLY tell him not to tailgate. I thought my friend would just get a warning and we would be on our way. I was not nervous, as I had nothing to hide, and I know I wasn't reaching for anything. Anyways, he asks me to step out and if I have anything drugs, guns, weapons, or anything illegal he should know about. I told him I did not. So he asked for permission to pat me down for weapons. I comply, and he searches me completely, not just a weapon pat-down. while he is searching me he finds a box cutter. (I had been helping someone move furniture earlier that day, and had a box cutter for cutting tape) He immediately puts me in handcuffs, and has me sit down and cross my legs. I asked him why I was being detained, and he said it I'm not being detained, I am under arrest, because I didn't have a CCW permit. I told him I carry a pocket knife almost every day of my life, never had any trouble, and that it was in fact legal to have a blade, so long as it's under 3 inches or whatever. He said "I asked you specifically if you had any weapons and YOU LIED TO ME!" I told him, that I didn't really remember having the cutter on my person, and that it never even registered, because I don't consider it a weapon. He Was a DICK. Kept saying things like "Who were you gonna use that on? What are you up to that you need to carry a weapon"... Just treating me like I was some huge dirt-bag because I had a box cutter. He didn't want to hear anything I had to say. So they pulled out the driver, and brought a dog to search the car. He seemed to be sure we had a gun for some reason. So they search and search and find some drug paraphernalia that belonged to the driver. So they arrest us both, and take us to the GFPD station, and take 7 hours to book us, the entire time acting as if we were criminals and scumbags. This one officer especially, was acting like he stopped us from going to cut whoever I was gonna cut with the box cutter. So after humiliating us, wasting our day, writing us tickets, they cut us loose and tell us to "Stay out of trouble". EFFING-AYE! I am so sick of how pigs act towards citizens, and now I have a 400 dollar ticket, and will have a concealed carry violation on my record!

    So, a few questions.
    What do you guys think about this story in general?
    Is it really illegal to carry a pocket-knife?
    Should I fight this in court or just pay it?
    Will having this on my record affect me getting a concealed carry permit in the future?
    Any other advice or opinions y'all have would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob View Post
    Hey all, long time no chat if anyone of you remember me. I would very much like some insight from you all.

    Although written in first person, story is not about me.

    My friend and I were driving through greenfield to go to another friend's house to enjoy the weather. I was in the front passenger seat. Suddenly, we are being pulled over. The officer walked over to my window on the passenger side (probably to stay out of traffic) said he stopped us because the driver was tailgating the car in front of us. He took our licenses, went back to his squad for a few minutes. When he walks back over to me asked what I was reaching for when he pulled us over, and why I was so nervous. (I reached for nothing, nor was I nervous.) I was laughing at my friend because I CONSTANTLY tell him not to tailgate. I thought my friend would just get a warning and we would be on our way. I was not nervous, as I had nothing to hide, and I know I wasn't reaching for anything. Anyways, he asks me to step out and if I have anything drugs, guns, weapons, or anything illegal he should know about. I told him I did not. So he asked for permission to pat me down for weapons. I comply, and he searches me completely, not just a weapon pat-down. while he is searching me he finds a box cutter. (I had been helping someone move furniture earlier that day, and had a box cutter for cutting tape) He immediately puts me in handcuffs, and has me sit down and cross my legs. I asked him why I was being detained, and he said it I'm not being detained, I am under arrest, because I didn't have a CCW permit. I told him I carry a pocket knife almost every day of my life, never had any trouble, and that it was in fact legal to have a blade, so long as it's under 3 inches or whatever. He said "I asked you specifically if you had any weapons and YOU LIED TO ME!" I told him, that I didn't really remember having the cutter on my person, and that it never even registered, because I don't consider it a weapon. He Was a DICK. Kept saying things like "Who were you gonna use that on? What are you up to that you need to carry a weapon"... Just treating me like I was some huge dirt-bag because I had a box cutter. He didn't want to hear anything I had to say. So they pulled out the driver, and brought a dog to search the car. He seemed to be sure we had a gun for some reason. So they search and search and find some drug paraphernalia that belonged to the driver. So they arrest us both, and take us to the GFPD station, and take 7 hours to book us, the entire time acting as if we were criminals and scumbags. This one officer especially, was acting like he stopped us from going to cut whoever I was gonna cut with the box cutter. So after humiliating us, wasting our day, writing us tickets, they cut us loose and tell us to "Stay out of trouble". EFFING-AYE! I am so sick of how pigs act towards citizens, and now I have a 400 dollar ticket, and will have a concealed carry violation on my record!

    So, a few questions.
    What do you guys think about this story in general?
    Is it really illegal to carry a pocket-knife?
    Should I fight this in court or just pay it?
    Will having this on my record affect me getting a concealed carry permit in the future?
    Any other advice or opinions y'all have would be greatly appreciated.

    This story is nothing new in Wisconsin. The police arrest people for just about anything on their person if the officer wants to say it was a "concealed weapon". This is why a year or so ago a judge in Wisconsin ruled that the concealed weapon violation law was unconstitutional. It is overly broad and allows just about anything to be construed as a weapon. There is a case in Wisconsin of a 10 y.o. being arrested for having a lock in one pocket of her coat and a shoe string in the other with the coat locked inside her school locker. It was overturned at the appeals court but the whole thing is ludicrous.

    I know one person who has two concealed carry convictions for a pocket knife and they weren't even in his pockets. One IIRC was in the console of his car and the other in a tool box IIRC in the trunk of his car.

    Keep in mind there are only three elements to this violation:

    1) It is hidden from normal view
    2) You know it is there
    3) It is within your reach

    So...as soon as you put your gun or bow or knife in a case you just broke the law. As soon as you put your gun in a gun safe and are within reach of it you just broke the law. The law is unconstitutional and should be repealed.

    To answer your question about fighting it...Absolutely! Don't let it go. Remember that politicians often create laws to make previous convictions have dire consequences in the future. If you plead guilty or no contest to this and a year or more down the road they make all misdemeanor convictions for concealed weapons a "Gun Free Zone" you will be barred for life from ever owning or touching a firearm.

    Remember: 1) Never talk to police...EVER
    2) Record EVERY interaction with the police on a video/audio recorder. Preferably have a DROID or something that transmits the video/audio as it is happening so they cannot take your evidence and destroy it.
    3) Know your rights. All of them.

    Good luck to you!
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  3. #3
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob
    What do you guys think about this story in general?
    I'd be tempted to say it sounds made up, but it's just wrong enough that it's probably true.
    Names, date, time, so a FOIA / open records request can be done?

    I was in the front passenger seat... The officer took our licenses...
    "You" weren't driving, why identify? You aren't even required to carry ID. So if you didn't have it you couldn't provide it, & what would the cop do then?

    asked what I was reaching for when he pulled us over, and why I was so nervous.
    Common tactic.
    "You're mistaken officer." Then SHUT UP.

    he asks me to step out and if I have anything drugs, guns, weapons, or anything illegal he should know about. I told him I did not. So he asked for permission to pat me down for weapons.
    If he had to ask, he didn't have RAS for a legal search! Never agree to their requests.
    And you honestly didn't have anything illegal, or anything he should know about. [ETA: after reading Nemo's reasoning, I can understand why there was supposedly a ticket issued for ccw.]

    now I have a 400 dollar ticket, and will have a concealed carry violation on my record!
    I don't know of any judge who would uphold either of those, or a DA who would press charges. (Then again, this is in Milwaukee County, so they might.)
    And that person won't have a ccw record until after a long drawn-out expensive process of hearings & a trial.
    DAMHIK.

    Is it really illegal to carry a pocket-knife?
    Depends on how bad a day the cop is having.

    Should I fight this in court or just pay it?
    Start with a lawyer & the DA's office. They might not even waste time pressing charges. (Then again, this is in Milwaukee County, so they might.) If you're interested in a referral, there's a link to contact info for my lawyer in my sig. They're experienced with WI cc laws.

    Will having this on my record affect me getting a concealed carry permit in the future?
    Not in WI.
    Even if convicted of ccw it does not prohibit someone from getting a WI cc license.
    (Some other states it will.)

    Any other advice or opinions y'all have would be greatly appreciated.
    * Don't talk to cops.
    * Go over to the WI forum sticky thread titled "new to OC in WI? things you should know". That includes the Don't Talk to Cops videos.
    * Watch the videos (on YouTube or their site) from www.flexyourrights.org
    * Get a lawyer. If you're interested in a referral, there's a link to contact info for mine in my sig. They're experienced with WI cc laws.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 03-22-2012 at 11:43 AM.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Greenfield is among those several that have a reputation for harsh treatment and over reaching their authority. I would take my day in court.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  5. #5
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Don't miss this part!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob View Post
    Although written in first person, story is not about me.
    [ ... ]
    So, a few questions.
    What do you guys think about this story in general?
    Is it really illegal to carry a pocket-knife?
    Should I fight this in court or just pay it?
    Will having this on my record affect me getting a concealed carry permit in the future?
    Any other advice or opinions y'all have would be greatly appreciated.
    Don't miss this part!

    The road to hell is paved with hypotheticals.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-21-2012 at 04:42 PM.

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    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    If this story is true, the person charged did just about everything you can do wrong when having an encounter with the police. They would benefit greatly from some research and/or Youtube videos on how to assert your rights.

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    All knives in wisconsin are considered dangerous weapons. There is no state exception for blade length. Milwaukee county is the only county I have found that excepts knives with a blade 3 inches or shorter from the dangerous weapon statute. Technically you need a concealed weapon license to carry a swiss army knife in your pocket. You don't need a CWL to carry a Leatherman knife on your belt as long as it is visible. Are some of our laws stupid, or what? Nearly all criminal laws are written to preserve the police state.

    Cops and prosecutors thrive on the fact that most citizens have no idea what the laws are until they inadvertantly break them. Many laws lay dormant and are only enforced when they are to the benefit of law enforcement and prosecutors.

    Rcawdor57 gave good information when he said don't talk to the police. In fact you weren't even required to hand over your vehicle operator license being you were a passenger. All you were required to do was give your name and address. The second the officer ssid you were under arrest you should have clamed up and said you request a lawyer. Once you "lawyer up" they can't interview you without a lawyer present (at least that's how I understand it). Also the officer was required to read you your Miranda rights, before any questioning, if he stated you were under arrest. You didn't mention if he did or not. Second; All contacts with the cops should be recorded. In Wisconsin you have the legal right to record any police contact, contrary to what they will claim. Third: Know the law. It's all available and searchable on the web.

    Not knowing the law is what got you in your fix. Many people end up in the same situation.

    1. You weren't required by law to turn over your driver's license for identification.
    2. You were unknowingly carrying a dangerous weapon.
    3. You did have the weapon concealed.
    4. Not knowing that the boxcutter in your pocket was technically a dangerous and concealed weapon you did lie to the police. Cops can lie to you but you can't lie to them.
    5. You consented to a complete search of your person without a search warrant or evidence of criminal conduct. During a Terry stop the cops can only do a pat-down for weapons.
    6. Because you were arrested for carrying a concealed weapon it also allowed the cops to search your friends car without need for a search warrant.
    7. The fact the car search turned up drug paraphrenalia made you guilty by association, even if you didn't know it was there.

    And all because you were having an afternoon drive with a buddy after helping another buddy move furniture.

    Sucks don't it?

    A good lawyer may get the charges you describein your post dropped on the grounds they are frivilous, but that's not a gimme. r

    I am not a lawyer so this post is not to be taken as legal advice.

  8. #8
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    I am not a lawyer so this post is not to be taken as legal advice.
    But it is good advice.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otto Schreck View Post
    I do not believe Spongebob is telling the WHOLE story.
    Might want to read up on Spongbob's posts. He would seem to have established an annual pattern of reappearing and posting of unusual events without cites or documentation. Judge for yourself as to the credibility thereof.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  10. #10
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msteinhilber View Post
    If this story is true, the person charged did just about everything you can do wrong when having an encounter with the police. They would benefit greatly from some research and/or Youtube videos on how to assert your rights.
    I found this one again...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=uj0mtxXEGE8

  11. #11
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot
    He would seem to have established an annual pattern of reappearing and posting of unusual events without cites or documentation. Judge for yourself as to the credibility thereof.
    Hmmm... you're right.
    Shows up occasionally, usually posting about dramatic events, no name/date/time/place.
    Maybe he'll do something different this time & give info so someone can FOIA the PD report on the incident he's describing.

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Hmmm... you're right.
    Shows up occasionally, usually posting about dramatic events, no name/date/time/place.
    Maybe he'll do something different this time & give info so someone can FOIA the PD report on the incident he's describing.
    Well maybe, would hope so.....but a reputation can be difficult to change. He should stand and deliver and it is a forum rule.


    Note the unchanging spots and this will effect our perception of him.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-22-2012 at 01:21 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Well maybe, would hope so.....but a reputation can be difficult to change. He should stand and deliver and it is a forum rule. [ ... ] Note the unchanging spots and this will effect our perception of him.
    That's an interesting turn of phrase among legally armed citizens
    As I was going over the far famed Kerry mountains
    I met with Captain Farrell and his money he was counting.
    I first produced my pistol, and then produced my rapier.
    Said stand and deliver, or the devil he may take ye

  14. #14
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I just called the Admin. Assistant for the Chiefs & she said that she'd need at least a name, preferably a date, in order to confirm if this story is true.

    So, "Bob"... put up or shut up. Since it supposedly didn't happen to you, who did it happen to? When?
    Rule #5.

    http://greenfieldpolice.org/

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    All knives in wisconsin are considered dangerous weapons.
    Cap'n I'd ask that your provide a citation in support of that assertion. I don't believe it is true.

    If you said "all firearms" it would be true, but there's nothing I've seen in the law that regards all knives as dangerous weapons. Aside from firearms, a dangerous weapon is something that is either a) designed as a weapon; or b) not designed as a weapon but actually used as one.

    Consequently, a baseball bat-- something not designed as a weapon-- may be considered one if you start bashing someone with it. Nor are Swiss army knives or a kitchen knives designed as a weapons and ought not to be considered weapons unless they are actually used as such.

    My cite? 939.22(10)
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    175.60(1)(j)

    (j) "Weapon" means a handgun, an electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a), a knife other than a switchblade knife under s. 941.24, or a billy club

    Note: Switchblade knives are excepted because it is unlawful to posses a switchblade knife under s 941.24. So all other knives are defined as weapons and require a CCL to be carried concealed. I can find no mention in Act 35 where the definition of knife size, style or use is clarified, except for switchblades and knives that open with the assist of a button or "flip of the wrist".

    The title of 175.60 is "License to carry a concealed weapon". It doesn't say license to carry a concealed handgun or firearm. As I commented before, Act 35 needs cleanup. Prior to Act35 and s.175.60 a knife was considered a weapon if and when it was used to inflict bodily harm or death. If 175.60 included all knives as weapons by intent or oversight is unknown. As I have previously commented, the present wording of 175.60 technically criminalizes any deer hunter that carries his/her hunting knife on their belt and covered by their outer jacket without benefit of a CCL. It criminalizes the carry of any knife that is hidden from view without benefit of a CCL. Would the courts consider such charges frivolous? maybe, but I have learned from studying case law that it is folly to try and second guess the Wisconsin judicial system. Most Wisconsin criminal law exists for the benefit of the self-centered interest of law enforcement, to be applied at the time that it best serves that interest.

    940.08
    Judicial Council Note, 1988: The definition of the offense is broadened to include highly negligent handling of fire, explosives and dangerous weapons in addition to firearm, airgun, knife or bow and arrow. See s. 939.22 (10). [Bill 191-S]
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 03-24-2012 at 07:11 AM.

  17. #17
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Well done. Well said. The 0424 edition was fine.

  18. #18
    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Might want to read up on Spongbob's posts. He would seem to have established an annual pattern of reappearing and posting of unusual events without cites or documentation. Judge for yourself as to the credibility thereof.
    Yep, calling on this.
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  19. #19
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    175.60(1)(j)

    (j) "Weapon" means a handgun, an electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a), a knife other than a switchblade knife under s. 941.24, or a billy club

    Note: Switchblade knives are excepted because it is unlawful to posses a switchblade knife under s 941.24. So all other knives are defined as weapons and require a CCL to be carried concealed. I can find no mention in Act 35 where the definition of knife size, style or use is clarified, except for switchblades and knives that open with the assist of a button or "flip of the wrist".

    The title of 175.60 is "License to carry a concealed weapon". It doesn't say license to carry a concealed handgun or firearm. As I commented before, Act 35 needs cleanup. Prior to Act35 and s.175.60 a knife was considered a weapon if and when it was used to inflict bodily harm or death. If 175.60 included all knives as weapons by intent or oversight is unknown. As I have previously commented, the present wording of 175.60 technically criminalizes any deer hunter that carries his/her hunting knife on their belt and covered by their outer jacket without benefit of a CCL. It criminalizes the carry of any knife that is hidden from view without benefit of a CCL. Would the courts consider such charges frivolous? maybe, but I have learned from studying case law that it is folly to try and second guess the Wisconsin judicial system. Most Wisconsin criminal law exists for the benefit of the self-centered interest of law enforcement, to be applied at the time that it best serves that interest.

    940.08
    Judicial Council Note, 1988: The definition of the offense is broadened to include highly negligent handling of fire, explosives and dangerous weapons in addition to firearm, airgun, knife or bow and arrow. See s. 939.22 (10). [Bill 191-S]
    I disagree with your reasoning. 175.60 doesn't criminalize anything. It legalizes certain things, however. Your citation simply lists the things a person can carry by virtue of a CCL. A person with a concealed weapon is still charged under 941.23 and for the definition of what is considered a "dangerous weapon" they would look to the definition I cited from 939.22. That definition is unchanged: a dangerous weapon is any firearm, any instrument designed as a weapon or, anything actually used as a weapon. Again, Swiss knives and multi-tools such as a Leatherman and not designed as weapons. While they certainly can be used as weapons, so can a brick or a beer bottle.
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  20. #20
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    Shotgun,

    With all due respect, I have to disagree, somewhat.

    Here is the link to Wis. Statute 175.60: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...0?view=section

    While this section of the statutes, is primarily intended to describe the Concealed License applications, processing, requirements and such, it does have some prohibitions directly in it, as well as penalties, up to an H felony for an instructor who submits false documents.

    Subsection 16 PROHIBITED ACTIVITY has areas you are NOT allowed to carry: airport secured areas, courthouses, jails, police stations, secure mental health facility, etc.

    Subsection 17 PENALTIES

    ----------------------------------------------

    Here is what I find the most unusual subsection, because it spells out where a licensee MAY CARRY, whereas most statutes use a format of "you are prohibited from ..." followed by a list of exceptions to the prohibition "CCL licensees, Law Enforcement Officers, etc."


    175.60(2g) Carrying a concealed weapon; possession and display of license document or authorization.

    175.60(2g)(a) A licensee or an out-of-state licensee may carry a concealed weapon anywhere in this state except as provided under subs. (15m) and (16) and ss. 943.13 (1m) (c) and 948.605 (2) (b) 1r.
    ...
    If you open the below link, you will be able to click on the statute references, and view the four pieces of statute that are EXCEPTIONS to the above "A licensee may carry" paragraph 175.60(2g)(a)

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...es/175/60/2g/a
    Last edited by E6chevron; 03-26-2012 at 10:51 PM.
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  21. #21
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    Shotgun,

    With all due respect, I have to disagree, somewhat.

    Here is the link to Wis. Statute 175.60: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...0?view=section

    While this section of the statutes, is primarily intended to describe the Concealed License applications, processing, requirements and such, it does have some prohibitions directly in it, as well as penalties, up to an H felony for an instructor who submits false documents.

    Subsection 16 PROHIBITED ACTIVITY has areas you are NOT allowed to carry: airport secured areas, courthouses, jails, police stations, secure mental health facility, etc.

    Subsection 17 PENALTIES

    ----------------------------------------------

    Here is what I find the most unusual subsection, because it spells out where a licensee MAY CARRY, whereas most statutes use a format of "you are prohibited from ..." followed by a list of exceptions to the prohibition "CCL licensees, Law Enforcement Officers, etc."




    If you open the below link, you will be able to click on the statute references, and view the four pieces of statute that are EXCEPTIONS to the above "A licensee may carry" paragraph 175.60(2g)(a)

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...es/175/60/2g/a
    You're right about those other provisions, I should have made it clear that I was limiting my "doesn't criminalize" comment about what constitutes a weapon. By defining what is allowed to be carried concealed with a license, it does not entail that anything else that is carried is automatically illegal when concealed and one has no license.
    A. Gold

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