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Thread: Harrassed by Chief of Police: Rallying the troops!

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    Harrassed by Chief of Police: Rallying the troops!

    Hey guys,

    I just had my first bad encounter with law enforcement open carrying my weapon. Here's what happened:

    I walked into the local convenience store, which is directly across the street from the police station. The police always walk across the street to this store. I've been open carrying this weapon since I got it the day after Christmas. I've carried all around town. I'm friends with the local store owners and employees. Pretty much everyone knows me and knows that I carry, and I've never had the slightest problem. Ever... I have a 100% clean record, and don't even have a parking ticket. I've never been to jail, and I've never been charged with a crime. Needless to say, I'm a law abiding citizen: by all means. But today was not a typical day. As I'm standing out the counter, next in line to check out, someone enters the store and I immediately sensed a problem. He was about 6' tall, approximately 200lbs, dark black skin, with a short buzz cut... He wasn't someone I recognized, despite this being a small town. As soon as he enters the store, I see him intently staring at me and my gun. It made me uncomfortable right off the bat, and my first fear was that he may have had his eye on trying to snatch my gun. He walked around to my left-hand side and and starts talking loudly and belligerently:

    "WHO YOU WORK FOR, BOY!?"
    "I'm self-employed... I work for myself..."
    "NO, WHERE YOU WORK!?"
    "I'm an individual day trader... I trade stocks, options, futures... I work at home."
    "WELL, YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT THEN!"
    "What are you talking about?"
    "You cannot carry that gun on you like that!"
    "Well, actually, I can. It's completely legal..."
    "NO IT AIN'T!!! YOU GOTTA HAVE A PERMIT!"
    "That's incorrect. Open carry is legal in Louisiana, man..."
    "YOU CANNOT COME INTO A STORE CARRYING THAT GUN IN THE OPEN!!!"
    "Yes, I can. I do it all the time..."
    "I'M THE CHIEF OF POLICE, BOY! If you ain't a police officer, peace officer, security guard or authorized by the police you can't have a gun!!! YOU GO PUT THAT GUN UP RIGHT NOW!!!"
    "Ok... I'm going to go put my weapon in the car and come back and talk to you. Not because I have to, but just as a peaceful gesture... I don't want to argue with my gun on my side anyway. Excuse me, please..."
    "PUT YOUR DRINK DOWN ON THE COUNTER AND GO, NOW!"
    That's what I'm trying to do...

    As I go outside to go put the weapon away, he follows me out of the store. And he starts up again, with the same loud, angry and belligerent talk. And it went as follows:

    "Yeah, boy, you can't carry no gun out in a public place! You crazy!?"
    "First of all, this is private property, sir... and the property owner does not prohibit it."
    "OH YEAH, WELL THE LAW DO!!!"
    "No, it does not."
    "YES IT DOES! YOU CANNOT BRANDISH A GUN IN PUBLIC!"
    "I am not 'brandishing' a gun. My weapon always stays in its holster. It's called *open carry*."
    "Just go put it up if you wanna talk to ME!"
    "Ok, that's what I was trying to do..."

    So I went back to the car and put my gun under the seat, and went back into the store. For just this sort of occasion, I carry a copy of the Louisiana State Constitutional amendment which permits open carry via the right to bear arms. The amendment reads as follows:

    §11. Right to Keep and Bear Arms

    Section 11. The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

    Anyone who can read and understand English at a high school graduate level can interpret this, as it's quite plain. It's basically saying "Each citizen's right to own and carry weapons cannot be violated, but the state may pass laws to regulate or ban carrying concealed weapons,". I presented him with a printed copy of Article I., Section 11 and asked him to read it. He reads it out loud, in a very loud voice, and his body language was very aggressive. And then he says:

    "Oh, you talkin about the American Constitution. The Second Amendment? Yeah, the Right to Bear Arms... But that don't matter!"
    "Actually, it does matter... But I'm talking about the *state* consitution of Louisiana, which is our state law... Here, please read this..."

    [He then reads it out loud]

    "SEE! I just TOLD you it's only CONCEALED! You can carry it CONCEALED, but you gotta have a permit!!!"
    "No sir, that is not what it says."
    "YES IT DOES!!! SEE!!!?"
    "No, you're wildly misinterpretting this--"
    "OH NO I AIN'T!! What does that word say!? Does that say 'concealed'?! HUH?! DOES IT!?"
    "Please re-read the entire thing. You cannot just pick one word out of it --"
    "DOES THAT WORD SAY 'CONCEALED'?! ANSWER ME?! THAT WORD SAYS 'CONCEALED', RIGHT!?"
    "That particular word is 'concealed', but you obviously aren't understanding the entire amendment."
    "You gotta have a PERMIT to carry that gun, and only CONCEALED!"
    "That is not true. I only need a permit to carry it concealed, but I can open carry my weapon without a permit. It is the state law."
    "NO, YOU WRONG!!! THAT WORD SAY CONCEALED, SON!!!"
    "I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about... But I have thoroughly researched this."
    "OK THEN! Well how about this: Next time I see you carryin that gun around my town I'm gonna have whatever officer is on duty come and take that gun and ARREST you, and throw you in JAIL, then we'll see about that!!!"
    "You cannot legally do that, because I will not have broken any laws."
    "Ok, well you can fight it out in court then!"
    "Then I will... and I will win."
    "HA! OK!! WE'LL SEE! THAT'S THE END OF THIS DISCUSSION!"
    "Why do you refuse to listen to reason?"
    "THAT'S IT, OK!? I BETTER NOT SEE YOU OUT HERE CARRYIN THAT GUN AGAIN!!!"
    "..."

    ...and he storms out of the store angry. He was not on duty, obviously, because he was wearing pants and a red shirt, rather than a uniform. He also was not visibly armed, and was not displaying a badge. My friend, who was outside pumping gas, said that he drove away in a school bus (which I found odd). However, I'm positive that he is who he says he is: Police Chief Adrian Martin of St. Helena Parish, Louisiana. I found his picture online on the police department's website, and positively identified him: there's no mistaking it. So I was indeed harrassed and threatened by the local Chief of Police!

    I am absolutely infuriated now, as this was completely and totally uncalled for. The St Helena Sheriff's Department is completely out of control, and has been for years. Hardly even two months ago, my little brother was stopped by them for no reason; they illegally searched him, unlawfully detained and arrested him and seized my mother's truck (which he was driving) and impounded it. They claimed he was involved in a burgalary the previous night and that the truck was being impounded for "evidence"; and that everything inside was "stolen". They also claimed he had unpaid fines and warrants: completely untrue, and in fact I accompanied my brother on the day, a month before, when he paid all of his tickets. Come to find out, my brother did NOT have any warrants. The suspect they were looking for in the allegeded burgalary was a black male, and my brother is a white male. The vehicle they were looking for was a completely different make, model and color. So they said they were going to "just change it" to an "insurance hold", and released him, but still kept the vehicle and ticketed him! They then put him out on the street to walk. And this was not the first time. My little brother has been unlawfully arrested on bogus/fake charges multiple times when he did nothing wrong. My friend got punched in the face and attacked by another man a while back, and he was jailed and charged with second degree battery... for simply defending himself (and there were witnesses). They haven't arrested me, personally, before... but they've threatened to arrest me on an unlawful basis NUMEROUS times; once for merely trying to report to an officer what I saw as a witness. And this is only scratching the surface! Almost everyone I know who lives here has been severely mistreated by the police. They believe that they are not only above the law but can MAKE UP the law as they go. Today was yet another example of it.

    Office Martin simply does not know or understand the law, and seems to have trouble with reading comprehension. Either that, or he knows he is wrong but likes to abuse his power to lie to people and threaten them with unlawful and unjust arrest. I believe it may be a mixture of both. His behavior was very hostile and aggressive, and completely unprofessional. His attitude was belligerent and combative, and totally unreasonable. He attempted to directly violate my rights as both a citizen of the United States and of the state of Louisiana. Though I am not permitted for concealed carry, I have every right to openly carry my weapon, with or without a permit, according to both the federal and state constitution of the land in which I reside.

    I'm asking everyone to show their support for the right to bear arms and educate this out-of-control police force about the law. The contact page for the St Helena Sheriff's Dept can be found here, or by using the following link:

    http://www.sthelenaso.org/Contact/tabid/59/Default.aspx

    Regards,

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    Keep us updated

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    Regular Member O2HeN2's Avatar
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    Does the store have a security camera (with audio) that you can get a copy of? Do you have a record feature on your phone? If so, next time start it.

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    The store does have security cameras. I'm unsure if they record audio, or if the owner would allow me a copy of the footage by request. But I can ask, and try to get it.

    I plan to go to the Sheriff's Department tomorrow, and try to have a sit-down meeting, in private, with Sheriff Nat Williams himself. At the bare minimum, I would like Chief Martin to be reprimanded for his conduct and be ordered to apologize, and be made to receive proper education and instruction. I'm not sure if I can reasonably hope for anything more than that. Is it possible to take it any further than this? In all honesty, I don't like the idea of him or anyone like him being out on the streets! He is little more than a parish-sponsored thug, as are several others. I've had a bone to pick with them for preying on my family and innocent people for a LOOOOONG time, and now I have the money and power to fight back.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    It is helpful to also realize that if you WERE breaking the law he would have had you arrested if not did it himself. I think if you were breaking the law and he didn't at least make an arrest (on something as serious as illegal possession of a firearm) then he could be reprimanded or something similar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    It is helpful to also realize that if you WERE breaking the law he would have had you arrested if not did it himself. I think if you were breaking the law and he didn't at least make an arrest (on something as serious as illegal possession of a firearm) then he could be reprimanded or something similar.
    Exactly! I already thought of that, but didn't mention it here. I figured that was a given. If I had walked in smoking a crack pipe, he wouldn't have asked me to go put it in my car -- he would have had me arrested on the spot. That's what leads me to believe that he DOES know open carry is legal, but was intentionally trying to bully me and coerce me into doing what he wanted.

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    Lightbulb Helpful suggestions (I hope)

    Hi - I am sorry you had this bad experience. From this point forward you may want to consider protecting your freedom by using video/audio recorders when you open carry in the future. Assuming it is legal for you to do so in your state. It sounds like the chief has a hard on for you now. This can mean future LEO contacts. I have enclosed a link from the MI forum where we recently went over recorders.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...order-Purchase

    Be safe - G9OS
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    I wish I'd had one, Glock... it's a very good idea. I bought a cheap $30 video camera at Walmart the other day. It's small, but a bit too big to carry on me all the time.

    If anyone decides to send a friendly reminder to the police dept that open carry is legal, please post what you say here. And it goes without saying to be professional and courteous, even if they are not!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetnsauer View Post
    I plan to go to the Sheriff's Department tomorrow, and try to have a sit-down meeting, in private, with Sheriff Nat Williams himself. At the bare minimum, I would like Chief Martin to be reprimanded for his conduct and be ordered to apologize, and be made to receive proper education and instruction. I'm not sure if I can reasonably hope for anything more than that. Is it possible to take it any further than this?
    Unfortunately, while the proper role of the sheriff is to interpose himself between any rights-violating officials and you, the citizen, he most likely will do nothing. The sheriff works for the parish, while the police chief is a town employee.

    It sounds like Chief Martin is just another typical member of the Louisiana thugocracy, making up the law as he goes along. I miss the state, but I sure don't miss that.
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    Honestly, you may be 100% right about that and he may well do nothing. However, Sheriff Williams is considered to be a somewhat reasonable man. I hope that I can at least establish: A) open carry IS legal B) I WILL be carrying my gun C) Martin was wrong, and the matter has been brought to the attention of others.

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    Do you mean Chief of Police of Greensburg La.? Greensburg is inside of St. Helena Parish and until this post, I 'd never heard of Greensburg La. despite the fact that I live within an hour's drive.

    It appears to me that you handled this properly... except for not being prepared to record(video or sound). Good job none-the-less.

    Do you live in Greensburg?

    EDIT: You said "I found his picture online on the police department's website, and positively identified him: there's no mistaking it. "

    Please provide the link to this picture.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 03-22-2012 at 12:25 AM.

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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetnsauer View Post
    I wish I'd had one, Glock... it's a very good idea. I bought a cheap $30 video camera at Walmart the other day. It's small, but a bit too big to carry on me all the time.

    If anyone decides to send a friendly reminder to the police dept that open carry is legal, please post what you say here. And it goes without saying to be professional and courteous, even if they are not!
    What I do, & this is just me, is carry an obvious video camera like you have (Thin Jazz flip screen on lanyard around my neck uses 3AAA & SD..light & good battery life - $20 @ biglots). You want them to see this, as it may make them think twice about beating you or worse... Then I carry a very stealth video camera that can record on demand. Along with (2) stealth audio recorders - one of which streams live to a web-server. The idea is: if things go bad you catch them destroying evidence, when they smash the cheap video camera and any other abuses that follow like: assault/false imprisonment and falsifying reports/charges . Sadly some in LE are criminals, which is why these measures are needed IMHO.

    When it comes down to your word against theirs, you lose every time. Video with audio on the other hand = PRICELESS
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 03-22-2012 at 01:34 AM. Reason: fat fingers
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    I'm confused.
    You were harrassed by the Greensburg City Police Chief? But you are going to complain to the Sheriff? Have you approched the Mayor or City Council yet?
    LOCAL sent out mailers to hundreds of Law Enforcement agencies across the state informing them of the right to Open Carry.
    We even had 2 of us (LOCAL Members) went to Greensburg to stand before the St Helena Police Jury to ask them to change a law regarding the carry of firearms in the parish. Other LOCAL members were in the audiance.
    If there is a problem with a law enforcement offical not being up to speed on the law or who knows but is harrassing citizens over a legal activity WE WANT TO KNOW. I have friends who live in Greensburg and have no problem making a trip there again to address something like this.
    Good for you for having a copy of the State Constitution. Better yet, feel free to print off a copy of our trifold informational pamphlet which can be found on our webpage at www.laopencarry.org . Direct link is- http://www.laopencarry.org/images/local-trifold.pdf
    Frankly I would not have disarmed for anyone not presenting valid LE identification and not working for the business or carrying out the business owners wishes.
    He had no authority to tell you to not carry there and you need to follow up on this right away.
    Last edited by sraacke; 03-22-2012 at 12:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    I'm confused.
    You were harrassed by the Greensburg City Police Chief? But you are going to complain to the Sheriff? Have you approched the Mayor or City Council yet?
    LOCAL sent out mailers to hundreds of Law Enforcement agencies across the state informing them of the right to Open Carry.
    We even had 2 of us (LOCAL Members) stand before the St Helena Police Jury to ask them to change a law regarding the carry of firearms in the parish. Other LOCAL members were in the audiance.
    If there is a problem with a law enforcement offical not being up to speed on the law or who knows but is harrassing citizens over a legal activity WE WANT TO KNOW.
    Good for you for having a copy of the State Constitution. Better yet, feel free to print off a copy of our trifold informational pamphlet which can be found on our webpage at www.laopencarry.org .
    Frankly I would not have disarmed for anyone not presenting valid LE identification and not working for the business or carrying out the business owners wishes.
    He had no authority to tell you to not carry there and you need to follow up on this right away.
    Hang on Yale. I'm the one that suggested it was Greensburg. The OP said he found the officer's pic on the PD's website and I request that he give us a link so that we know exactly who he's talking about.

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Hang on Yale. I'm the one that suggested it was Greensburg. The OP said he found the officer's pic on the PD's website and I request that he give us a link so that we know exactly who he's talking about.
    It's nothing you said.
    The thread title is Harrassed by Chief of Police.
    Then this
    "I'M THE CHIEF OF POLICE, BOY!
    If the OP is talking about a Deputy or other employee of the Sheriff's Office which is headquartered in Greensburg but is typing Chief of Police then there will certainly be confusion. He mentioned finding a photo of the person who accosted him on a website but provided a different website. Just trying to straighten out things so we can understand things better.
    Did this happen at the Swifty's Food mart on the corner of Hwy 10 and Hwy 43 across from the SO?
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    Yes, Yale. This happened in the town of Greensburg, LA. The incident occurred at the convenience store formerly known as "Swifty's" (it has new owners and a new name now).

    The policeman was indeed none other that Adrian Martin. Look at this page:

    http://www.sthelenaso.org/Crimestopp...2/Default.aspx

    He is the one to the far right. I also found another picture of him:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AdrianMartin.jpg 
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ID:	8191

    Maybe Sheriff Williams is the wrong person to complain to... you guys may be right about seeing the mayor or city council. Bear with me, as I'm 23 years old and a newbie to dealing with police.
    Last edited by sweetnsauer; 03-22-2012 at 01:08 AM.

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetnsauer View Post
    Yes, Yale. This happened in the town of Greensburg, LA. The incident occurred at the convenience store formerly known as "Swifty's" (it has new owners and a new name now).

    The policeman was indeed none other that Adrian Martin. Look at this page:

    http://www.sthelenaso.org/Crimestopp...2/Default.aspx

    He is the one to the far right. I also found another picture of him:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AdrianMartin.jpg 
Views:	124 
Size:	30.6 KB 
ID:	8191

    Maybe Sheriff Williams is the wrong person to complain to... you guys may be right about seeing the mayor or city council. Bear with me, as I'm 23 years old and a newbie to dealing with police.
    Thanks for the clarification.
    This is what happened the last time we had to visit Greensburg....
    Gun ordinance may be revised


    GREENSBURG ” The St. Helena Parish Police Jury has agreed to consider revising parish ordinances to clarify language dealing with unconcealed gun possession by residents.

    "We ask that the words "carry and possess" and "for any other purpose" be stricken from the ordinances, Steven Schwarer, of the Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League, told jurors Tuesday night.

    St. Helena Parish currently forbids the carrying, possession or discharge of loaded firearms within 500 feet of swimming or picnic areas; within 500 feet of buildings or structures where people are present, unless the owners of the structures permit weapons possession; and within 100 feet of the center line of any public street, road or highway.

    Schwarer said that if the law is read as written, it means even neighbors living in homes within 500 feet of each other cannot possess or carry a loaded gun without the permission of their neighbors.

    Steve Raacke, another spokesman for the open carry group, said parish law contradicts state law, which supports an individual's constitutional right to bear arms.

    Raacke said that if the intent is to protect people from the discharge of weapons, keep the wording that addresses when and where weapons can be fired.
    "It's the mere possession or carrying of a weapon that we are trying to change," he said.

    Raacke said that as a former corrections officer who carries a loaded, unconcealed weapon, he wants to know he would not be breaking the law by simply crossing into St. Helena Parish.

    Jury members directed attorney Clifton Speed to draft proposed amendments to parish gun laws for review in July.

    Juror Major Coleman asked Speed to retain language concerning gun possession in areas where public gatherings are conducted.
    and

    By JACQUELINE COCHRAN
    Special to The Advocate
    Published: Jun 24, 2010 - Page: 3B
    SNIP
    In other business, the jury agreed to consider an updated ordinance regulating when and under what circumstances firearms may be discharged within the parish.

    The new ordinance would allow people unobstructed use of firearms in self-defense.

    Copies of the proposed ordinance are available from the St. Helena Parish Police Jury Office.

    The jury plans at its July 13 meeting to hold a public hearing on the proposed ordinance before putting it to a vote.
    Last edited by sraacke; 03-22-2012 at 01:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    Sheriff's Office which is headquartered in Greensburg
    I learn something new every day...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetnsauer View Post
    Maybe Sheriff Williams is the wrong person to complain to... you guys may be right about seeing the mayor or city council. Bear with me, as I'm 23 years old and a newbie to dealing with police.
    I don't know a thing about LA, other than it has a history of corruption and abuse of the law. In most jurisdictions the county Sheriff is the Chief LEO of that county, which means he can tell the local chiefs of police "how the cow chews the cabbage", though I don't know if LA's 'parish system' is set up the same way. The Mayor probably appointed the C.O.P., and any question of Chief Martin's competency may be seen by the Mayor as questioning his own competency in appointing him. If any action is taken, the Mayor's action may be limited to a 'wink and a nod'. I would caution you to be very careful as to how you approach any politician with a complaint over people s/he has placed in office. Keep in mind that the Sheriff is also a politician, but doesn't appoint C.O.P. - however LE does have it's 'good ole boys' club. Pax...
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    Your Mayor is Mr Burke Jones. I'd contact him. Your Police Jury meets every 2 weeks. You may want to address them with your concerns if Chief Martin seems unable to understand basic english. If you have a mailing address for the GPD get it to me so I can see about adding it to our (LOCAL's) list of LE agencies who need to receive a mailer from us. I just mailed one to the Chief of DeQuincy Police Dept on Monday. Chief Martin can get one in his mailbox too if he needs one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    Your Mayor is Mr Burke Jones. I'd contact him. Your Police Jury meets every 2 weeks. You may want to address them with your concerns if Chief Martin seems unable to understand basic english. If you have a mailing address for the GPD get it to me so I can see about adding it to our (LOCAL's) list of LE agencies who need to receive a mailer from us. I just mailed one to the Chief of DeQuincy Police Dept on Monday. Chief Martin can get one in his mailbox too if he needs one.
    Yes, at this point I was the police department to be receiving mail, emails, in-person visits and everything else to carry the message across. I don't want to go into town one day and have some idiot cop pull his gun on me. I also fear an non-uniformed or off duty policeman pulling a gun on me because I will have no way of knowing he/she is a LEO! And how do you react to a random person pulling a gun on you? ...not kindly! I want them ALL to know that OC is 100% legal. I don't want anything bad to happen or anyone to ever get hurt over the ignorance of St Helena cops. So please do send a "mailer" to Martin, and the rest of the crew. I would also like to become active in town and pass out flyers or whatever other media LOCAL prescribes (btw, I've joined LOCAL).

    Good idea. I will definitely bring Chief Martin's linguistic deficiencies (evident inability to comprehend basic English) to the attention of city council. I don't know if it will be helpful, but my mother is good friend's with Ken Carter, former mayor of Greensburg. I do not know Mayor Jones, but perhaps a meeting is in order.

    But please help me! While I may be intelligent and educated in the matter of my rights and certain portions of the law, I'm a newbie to dealing with police and local government in this way. I don't know the CoC (Chain of Command) and only vaguely understand some of the procedures and protocols I need to follow here.

    And what if they actually DO arrest me? I would not be surprised, because I've watched my brother and other innocent people be awaken by a knock at the door and drug off to jail for nothing. I'm not afraid of being arrested itself, but some other things worry me... like an expensive bail, how long I might be there, etc. And I'm supposing that IF they do, then I have grounds for a big stinky lawsuit I could use to make positive changes for the right to bear arms...

    EDIT: I've also contrived what I think may be a better response to that old "do you have a permit" BS line... We all seem to respond, basically: "I don't need one". But that answer seems to acknowledge that such a thing actually exists! The better response, me thinks, would be: "There is no such thing as an 'open carry permit' in this state".
    Last edited by sweetnsauer; 03-22-2012 at 04:13 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    I think you guys are completely missing the point here.

    There are some circumstances that you can not 'combat' using legal means, words, 'telling on the person' or trying to lock horns.

    To me there are only two alternatives:

    1. Make friends with this guy, join some kind of police 'helper' league and getting on his good side be the exception to his (hinky) rule. (a long shot)
    2. Move the freak away from this place pronto.

    Seriously, you're saying 'I've got this 800 lb monster who won't listen to reason and who wants to arrest me, how can I reason with him?' It's ridiculous. You can't.

    Even if the PtB try to rein him in, he'll find a way to 'get you', imo.

    But...good luck.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  23. #23
    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetnsauer View Post
    (btw, I've joined LOCAL).
    Cool. I havn't received a membership application from anyone in Greensburg but as soon as it goes through and the internet spits it out to us we will make sure to get your membership card and such in the mail to you. Sometimes the membership form or Paypal link hangs up or throws an error code for some random reason. It ususally clears up quickly though. Glad to have you on board.
    If you havn't gone to the LOCAL forum you should check in there too. We have lots of discussions there. You will be able to read in the Members section as soon as we get your membership processed too.

    And what if they actually DO arrest me?
    Who is your lawyer? I'll bet that you probably havn't thought about needing to have one, right? Think about this. Anyone who carries a gun for protection should train with it and know the laws regarding carrying it and use of force. Part of that involves running scenerios. What Ifs.
    Like....
    What if I'm in this store and some guy walks in and starts waving a gun around yelling to get on the floor...
    What if I'm at this gas pump and some dude drives by and gives me the evil eye then does a Uturn in the road and heads back this way....
    What if I'm getting out of my car and someone runs up to the door....
    One of the What If's that we all should go over is....What if I have to shoot that guy over there who's looking all freaked out?
    What do I say to the 911 dispatcher?
    What do i say to the police?
    If I'm arrested and my gun is seized, who will take my case?
    Do I know a lawyer who can speak for me?
    Now is the time to be finding a lawyer, not after you shoot someone or are arrested while carrying a gun.
    Marty Hayes, Director of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network made this point in an interview he did for the Practical Defense Network podcast. If you want to hear the interview go to http://www.alexhaddox.com/practicaldefense.shtml and scroll down to "Practical Defense 201 - Legal Aftermath with Marty Hayes". If you don't have a lawyer on speed dial already, you havn't done your job. Get one.
    Personally I chose Morgan Allison and the La Armed Citizen Plan he offers- http://www.louisianaarmedcitizens.com/ .
    Last edited by sraacke; 03-22-2012 at 05:46 AM.
    President/ Founding Member
    Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League
    www.laopencarry.org

  24. #24
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Civil rights violations.
    Federal crimes.
    Get a lawyer.

    For the department as a whole, or if 2 officers work together to harass/threaten/intimidate someone:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/241
    Conspiracy against rights
    If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State... in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same...
    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both...
    For what the Chief did, or if any single officer does something similar:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/242
    Deprivation of rights under color of law
    Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State... to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States...
    shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both...
    Here's the federal law saying you can sue & collect damages:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983
    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State... subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States... to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress...
    Part B here says you recover attorney's fees when you win.

    This is a PDF of the initial complaint for a civil rights case I was involved in, which included several illegal search/seizures, unreasonable force, lack of due process, & RKBA.
    Contact info for the attorney (in GA) is on the last 2 pages (7&8... it's a short & easy read, though it has been known to raise people's blood pressure).
    Last edited by MKEgal; 03-22-2012 at 01:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
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    Hey guys,

    Sheriff Williams called me this morning and arranged a meeting for 3:30pm. If anything, I want to let him know what's going on and ask him to make all of his officers aware that OC is 100% legal in the state, is not reasonable suspicion for a detention, not probable cause for a search/seizure and should not be regarded as "suspicious" in the least. If you guys have any input or advice for me, let's hear it.

    @Yale: In fact, I do have "a lawyer on speed dial". However, I'm thinking about getting a new one. I also have reviewed pretty much all of those "what if" scenarios before. And basically, it comes down to this: I cannot use my gun unless A) my life is in danger B) an innocent person's life is in danger C) the aforementioned are in danger of bodily harm D) to prevent the forcible and unlawful entry of my home or vehicle. I know that in Louisiana, there is no "duty to retreat" -- we have a "stand your ground" statute.

    I'm not new to using a weapon in self-defense, and think I've handled myself appropriately thus far. In my first encounter, I declined to shoot because the assailants fled when the gun was leveled against them. And shooting fleeing persons is not self-defense, it's just wrong (with very few exceptions) -- however mad you may be at them for trying to hurt you only seconds before. And I sincerely hope I never have to use my gun to save my life or an innocent person's life again. That's not something a man should want. But I do hope, however, that if I'm ever around when something bad happens that my actions can save lives.

    @MKEgal: Bingo! Excellent post! I can definitely use this!

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