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Florida "Stand Your Ground" Law May Be Changed

Jack House

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
I80, USA
The funny thing is you were supposed to keep and bear arms to stop them from using illegal, unconstitutional commie legislation to control you, and none of you, NOT ONE, will ever do so. You will kick and scream, and in the end, they will "legislate" away your right to even own guns. They've played this game in a dozen countries already. If you fail to learn from history, and understand the REAL PURPOSE of having guns, then you have no reason to complain.
Take a good hard long look in the mirror, partner. I don't see you leading the charge in violent revolution, so really you have no room to talk.

As for me, when and if the time ever comes where the only recourse is armed revolution, I will in. But that time has not come, and it hopefully will not come. We are making ground on restoring rights. It may take a long time, but that is better than the alternative.


Posted using my HTCEvo via Tapatalk
 

Be Responsible

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
2
Location
fl
not a betting man - but i would bet on this

I'm still trying to figure out how SYG became the buzzword for this story in the media. From what I've read, despite following a stranger, we don't know how GZ came to be on the ground getting his ass kicked, but that is the point that he defended himself with deadly force. How exactly did he (AT THIS POINT) have even a window to retreat?

Let's assume GZ assaulted TM, maybe grabbing or pushing him, maybe worse. Next thing we do know is that TM had him on the ground getting beaten badly. Just as when we must shoot to STOP, not kill, when we shoot for defense, TM had a duty to stop hitting an attacker when the threat was over. If we were to assume GZ was the initial assaulter, TM continued any force well beyond self-defense, from what I have read.

I'm sorry that the witness left the scene while making the phone call and missed the turning point that provides all the details that really matter.

In the TM - GZ matter that has currently gained the national spotlight - a cherry picked event

I bet there is more witness testimony to come out -

I bet there is more information about TM & GZ that has yet to come out...... and will -

**********************
Watch what the public voice does as the facts unfold -

Although I prefer watching FNC - I was pleased to see how Anderson Cooper handled his interview with Black Panther Leader, Minister Mikhail Muhammad -

On that interview alone - I would consider giving Mr Cooper another opportunity to impress me by watching his program through the rest of this matter - especially if there is pressure on SYG

**********************

Our sitting President was so quick to get out of the gate in telling the world how if he had a son he would look like TM - was that responsible?

Interested to see if our President has any further comments as the facts unfold.

Be well
 
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jbone

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,230
Location
WA
Interested to see if our President has any further comments as the facts unfold.

I suppose inviting Zimmerman and Martin’s Mom to the WH for a Beer is in order. After all BHO again opened his mouth fueling racial tension before the facts of an investigation were known.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
Chris Smith said:
... is drafting new legislation to "drastically" change that law, which he said has increased deaths in the state due to "self-defense" by more than 250 percent.
..."We can't keep turning a blind eye to the number of lives this law has claimed," Smith said in a statement. "'Stand Your Ground' in its present form continues to endanger Floridians by not only giving someone the right to shoot first, but immunity for their actions, whether justified or not."
Sounds like the law is working as intended - protecting people who defend themselves from persecution by criminal or civil suits. If he wants to reduce the number of people killed, work to reduce the number of people attacking.

Sig229 said:
Following some kid around the neighborhood, no matter how menacing he looked is not a valid reason to use a firearm in self defense. Especially when dispatch tells you not to.
I agree that following someone is not a good reason to shoot them.
Getting my head bashed into the ground, & having my attacker trying to get my gun, is a good reason.
According to the police report, M was 6' tall & 160lb. He was athletic (played football).
Z was several inches shorter, appears to be heavier, & not quite 30yo, so more than half again M's age.

And the wishes of dispatchers are just that. The PDF by the police chief even says so:
The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow
They have no authority to order anyone to or from a course of action. How many 911 calls have we heard where the dispatcher tells the intended victim not to shoot the person who's breaking down their door? :mad:

MAC702 said:
Let's assume GZ assaulted TM, maybe grabbing or pushing him, maybe worse. Next thing we do know is that TM had him on the ground getting beaten badly. Just as when we must shoot to STOP, not kill, when we shoot for defense, TM had a duty to stop hitting an attacker when the threat was over. If we were to assume GZ was the initial assaulter, TM continued any force well beyond self-defense, from what I have read.
This.
If Z somehow made M fear for his life or well-being (which is debatable, since M followed Z as he walked back to his car) M was justified in stopping the threat.
When Z was on his back on the ground basically yelling "uncle!" he had clearly withdrawn from the conflict & regained his right to self-defense against M, who at that point became the attacker.

Those PDFs are interesting...
[Z]was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the Sanford Police Department
So much for the vigilante & neighborhood watch connections... except that he happened to also be a volunteer.
 

Sky1

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
40
Location
Raleigh
This was the plan all along hence the reason to spin the story the way they did.
 

Sig229

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
926
Location
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
I agree that following someone is not a good reason to shoot them.
Getting my head bashed into the ground, & having my attacker trying to get my gun, is a good reason.
According to the police report, M was 6' tall & 160lb. He was athletic (played football).
Z was several inches shorter, appears to be heavier, & not quite 30yo, so more than half again M's age.

And the wishes of dispatchers are just that. The PDF by the police chief even says so:


I agree with you and I retract my original statement.
I made it before thoroughly research the hidden details about this case.
I say hidden because only a small few news organizations are actually reporting the facts of this case.
 

Potent Dagger

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
31
Location
Alabama
Well you certainly seem to have this all locked up in a nice neat little package. You are over 1 thousand miles from the crime scene, read the press accounts, hear some highly edited sound bites from some 911 recordings and jump to conclusions that may or perhaps most likely are inaccurate.

It has been over 30 years since I walked into my first homicide scene, but I remember it, there was one punch thrown, just a punch, the victim was 30 years old, in good health, but that one punch was all it took.

A simple battery is only a simple battery if the person on the receiving end of the beating survives.

Lets assume that Zimmerman is a racist, lets assume that he followed Martin because he was a young black male, dressed in a hoodie, lets forget that in the prior time leading up to this event, Zimmerman had called police on about 16 occasions, and in each of those occasions no guns were pulled and no one was shot, and in fact one thief was arrested based on his efforts. But lets still assume the worse, that Zimmerman did not have the most noble of motivations in following Martin. No matter how offended Martin was based on the situation, can you point to the statute or even the mainstream idea of the concept of "right and just outrage" that says that Zimmerman was obligated to take a beating.

Zimmerman was doing what many people advocate for, "looking out for his community and neighborhood".

Lets assume for a second that Travon Martin was not shot. Would his attack on Zimmerman resulted in charges that he attacked Zimmerman without legal justification,,,,you bet they would.

The standard for the use of deadly force is if in the mind of the person using the force, the force was necessary to prevent serious injury or death. And when an 6'3, 180 Lbs., 18 year old male, of any color, is standing over you, and you are on the ground, getting your head punched into the pavement, you can arrive at that decision fairly quickly and fairly reasonably.

The law on deadly force is not perfect, neither is the law on "stand your ground". and in fact both Martin and Zimmerman were neither doing anything illegal, nor were either the "aggressor" until the encounter turned violent, then at that point, it becomes obvious who the aggressor is.

Now I do not know the full circumstances of this case, I am not the investigator working the case, nor am I a witness to the events. There is a lot that goes into this type of investigation, including wounds of defense and offense on both Zimmerman and Martin, the position both men were in when the shot was fired, the wound path in Martin, gun powder and lead tattoo marks on Martin, blood splatter and misting, and a lot more.

I do not have 1/10 of the information necessary to determine if Zimmerman's actions were justified, and the whole point of this post is neither do you.



QUOTE=lockman;1726113]Why change it? Trevvon stood his ground, but his Stalker upped the stakes with a weapon. Even if Trevvon overstepped his response and became an aggressor, Zimmerman used deadly force in response to what amounted to a simple battery.

Mr. Zimmerman placed himself in a situation where he had to defend himself as a result of his own negligent actions. Voluntary manslaughter at best.

Chasing someone down and confronting them when no knowledge of a crime is present will pretty much gut any stand your ground defense.[/QUOTE]
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Well you certainly seem to have this all locked up in a nice neat little package. You are over 1 thousand miles from the crime scene, read the press accounts, hear some highly edited sound bites from some 911 recordings and jump to conclusions that may or perhaps most likely are inaccurate.

It has been over 30 years since I walked into my first homicide scene, but I remember it, there was one punch thrown, just a punch, the victim was 30 years old, in good health, but that one punch was all it took.

A simple battery is only a simple battery if the person on the receiving end of the beating survives.

Lets assume that Zimmerman is a racist, lets assume that he followed Martin because he was a young black male, dressed in a hoodie, lets forget that in the prior time leading up to this event, Zimmerman had called police on about 16 occasions, and in each of those occasions no guns were pulled and no one was shot, and in fact one thief was arrested based on his efforts. But lets still assume the worse, that Zimmerman did not have the most noble of motivations in following Martin. No matter how offended Martin was based on the situation, can you point to the statute or even the mainstream idea of the concept of "right and just outrage" that says that Zimmerman was obligated to take a beating.

Zimmerman was doing what many people advocate for, "looking out for his community and neighborhood".

Lets assume for a second that Travon Martin was not shot. Would his attack on Zimmerman resulted in charges that he attacked Zimmerman without legal justification,,,,you bet they would.

The standard for the use of deadly force is if in the mind of the person using the force, the force was necessary to prevent serious injury or death. And when an 6'3, 180 Lbs., 18 year old male, of any color, is standing over you, and you are on the ground, getting your head punched into the pavement, you can arrive at that decision fairly quickly and fairly reasonably.

The law on deadly force is not perfect, neither is the law on "stand your ground". and in fact both Martin and Zimmerman were neither doing anything illegal, nor were either the "aggressor" until the encounter turned violent, then at that point, it becomes obvious who the aggressor is.

Now I do not know the full circumstances of this case, I am not the investigator working the case, nor am I a witness to the events. There is a lot that goes into this type of investigation, including wounds of defense and offense on both Zimmerman and Martin, the position both men were in when the shot was fired, the wound path in Martin, gun powder and lead tattoo marks on Martin, blood splatter and misting, and a lot more.

I do not have 1/10 of the information necessary to determine if Zimmerman's actions were justified, and the whole point of this post is neither do you.



QUOTE=lockman;1726113]Why change it? Trevvon stood his ground, but his Stalker upped the stakes with a weapon. Even if Trevvon overstepped his response and became an aggressor, Zimmerman used deadly force in response to what amounted to a simple battery.

Mr. Zimmerman placed himself in a situation where he had to defend himself as a result of his own negligent actions. Voluntary manslaughter at best.

Chasing someone down and confronting them when no knowledge of a crime is present will pretty much gut any stand your ground defense.
[/QUOTE]


Well said, indeed.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Well said, indeed.

Agreed. "Simple battery" is a red herring.

A gentle shove is "simple battery".

I could just as easily say that hitting someone in the head with a baseball bat is "simple battery", provided the victim survives. The deadliness of a punch vs. a bat to the head, much less slamming the victim's head into the ground, is only a matter of degree, and one not nearly so great as believed by those who think that "simple battery", i.e. a punch to the head, can ever be acceptable, or does not carry an unacceptable risk of permeant disability or death.

As I've said before, I have a sneaking suspicion that those folks are the same who engage in, or have engaged in, such assault/battery, thinking it socially or morally acceptable to ever punch someone anywhere outside of clear self-defense.

For some reason, despite the rather advanced date we live in, some folks still subscribe to the archaic, barbaric notion that fistfights are "manly" and can ever be acceptable.

I can promise all here that I will never intentionally encourage such an altercation. Moreover, I can promise that if it is forced on me, my assailant will not be left standing. If that requires a seeming disparity of force, i.e. armed vs unarmed, to counter a prior disparity of force, i.e. size or fighting experience mismatch, then so be it.

Incidentally, I watched the recent clip on the "Bill O'Reilly of the Left" (i.e. Keith Olbermann) show, with some Constitutional law professor who is so caught up in his academic obsession with the statist notion that he has convinced himself that law dictates behavior (as opposed to merely reacting to it, appropriately or inappropriately). They were quite intent to advance the "unarmed" red herring as if it has the slightest merit. Evidently, despite their espousal of the pantywaist pseudo-liberal ideology, they too subscribe to the archaic, barbaric notion that battery by fist is manly and can ever be acceptable. The irony is obvious.
 
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HankT

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Messages
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Great. More of the same, now involving the national reciprocity law.


<shakes head>

How could just one measly goof with a gun cause so much darn trouble for us???

Just one!!!

It's truly amazing.

Copy of an e-mail I received this afternoon:

Brady Brings Your Voice to Congress

Dear Hank,

On Tuesday, Brady President Dan Gross took you to Congress with him. He testified at a forum held by House Judiciary Committee Democrats and expressed your outrage that an unarmed teenager — Trayvon Martin — lost his life as a direct result of the gun lobby's "guns everywhere" agenda.

After giving our sympathies and support to the parents of Trayvon Martin, Dan reminded our nation's leaders that if George Zimmerman had not had a gun with him, Trayvon Martin would still be alive today. And the only reason Zimmerman had a gun is because of Florida's horrendous gun laws.

Dan's stirring call to action earned spontaneous applause from members of Congress and the audience.


Watch the highlights from Dan's Testimony, or listen to the whole thing!

Since this tragedy came to light, Brady has been working non-stop: issuing statements and responding to questions from the media, the public and Capitol Hill about national gun laws and Florida's laws; working with our activists to speak up and out; and coordinating with other gun violence prevention groups to shed light on the role of the gun in Trayvon's shooting.

We are also maintaining constant contact with our allies on the Hill. Why? Because many of our elected leaders are close to passing legislation to allow George Zimmerman — and thousands of other dangerous people like him — to carry loaded guns into practically every neighborhood in America.

That’s right! Our elected officials want to make it easier for "George Zimmermans" to carry a loaded hidden gun around America!

I have seen many outrageous acts of Congress over the years but this one is beyond belief. I urge you to support our fight against this insanity with a special gift today.

We promise you that the voice of the American people will be heard. We will force the politicians who work against the public safety interests of the American people to face real consequences for their actions. In his testimony, Dan spoke for you, me and millions of Americans — your gift will make that voice even louder.

Sincerely,

Sarah Brady, Chair
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence
 

77zach

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Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
It's sad and funny that the anti-rights crowd has any credibility left. In a rational society, their rants would actually help the pro-freedom side. The level of brainwashing in statism is beyond comprehension. Throughout the country, with great frequency, the police kill people in more questionable circumstances than Zimmerman. No big deal. An educated person knows what every single U.S. and foreign death in Iraq, Af-Pak, Egypt, and Libya (and soon to be Iran) is- it's a murder. Ain't no self defense or "freedom fightin" going on over there. Yet because of this incident, which we still don't know everything about, the government needs to take away our guns and right to self defense. Truly incredible. I have to give props to the social engineers.
 
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j4l

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Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
It's sad and funny that the anti-rights crowd has any credibility left. In a rational society, their rants would actually help the pro-freedom side. The level of brainwashing in statism is beyond comprehension. Throughout the country, with great frequency, the police kill people in more questionable circumstances than Zimmerman. No big deal. An educated person knows what every single U.S. and foreign death in Iraq, Af-Pak, Egypt, and Libya (and soon to be Iran) is- it's a murder. Ain't no self defense or "freedom fightin" going on over there. Yet because of this incident, which we still don't know everything about, the government needs to take away our guns and right to self defense. Truly incredible. I have to give props to the social engineers.

Indeed.BUT, it's by no means limited (this mindset) to un-educated folks. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the sheer number of highly-experienced, well-educated (Master's Degree +), mature adults who can look history, documented-facts, and reality, straight in the eye, and still try to debate it, or hold an opposing opinion of it.

I personally know a Professor of History at a University with a few doctorates in hand. To hear this man speak politics or social issues of any sort, simply leaves you scratching your head, thinking "if THIS guy does'nt/cant/wont GET IT, what hope do we have?"
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Great. More of the same, now involving the national reciprocity law.


<shakes head>

How could just one measly goof with a gun cause so much darn trouble for us???

Just one!!!

It's truly amazing.

Copy of an e-mail I received this afternoon:

Brady Brings Your Voice to Congress

Dear Hank,

On Tuesday, Brady President Dan Gross took you to Congress with him. He testified at a forum held by House Judiciary Committee Democrats and expressed your outrage that an unarmed teenager — Trayvon Martin — lost his life as a direct result of the gun lobby's "guns everywhere" agenda.

After giving our sympathies and support to the parents of Trayvon Martin, Dan reminded our nation's leaders that if George Zimmerman had not had a gun with him, Trayvon Martin would still be alive today. And the only reason Zimmerman had a gun is because of Florida's horrendous gun laws.

Dan's stirring call to action earned spontaneous applause from members of Congress and the audience.


Watch the highlights from Dan's Testimony, or listen to the whole thing!

Since this tragedy came to light, Brady has been working non-stop: issuing statements and responding to questions from the media, the public and Capitol Hill about national gun laws and Florida's laws; working with our activists to speak up and out; and coordinating with other gun violence prevention groups to shed light on the role of the gun in Trayvon's shooting.

We are also maintaining constant contact with our allies on the Hill. Why? Because many of our elected leaders are close to passing legislation to allow George Zimmerman — and thousands of other dangerous people like him — to carry loaded guns into practically every neighborhood in America.

That’s right! Our elected officials want to make it easier for "George Zimmermans" to carry a loaded hidden gun around America!

I have seen many outrageous acts of Congress over the years but this one is beyond belief. I urge you to support our fight against this insanity with a special gift today.

We promise you that the voice of the American people will be heard. We will force the politicians who work against the public safety interests of the American people to face real consequences for their actions. In his testimony, Dan spoke for you, me and millions of Americans — your gift will make that voice even louder.

Sincerely,

Sarah Brady, Chair
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

So how much did you give, Hank?
 

HankT

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Messages
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Invisible Mode
So how much did you give, Hank?

I didn't give them anything. I cannot support the Brady Campaign (although the full name is fine).

The problem is that Brady Campaign pretty much strictly believes in the LGGMGB position. This is a pathetically simplistic position. And it's a hopelessly futile philosophy. So, I cannot support a hopeless (hoplophobic) effort.

I support the NRA and share a lot of the values of all pro-gun orgs (BFA, VCDL, OCDO, etc.). Although, it is increasingly apparent that the pro-gun organizations' reliance on the MGGLGB position is pretty stupid too. It's simplistic, and although it's been HUGELY effective in the last 30 years or so, it's increasingly clunky and too rigid to deal well with issues like "reasonable regulation" of ownership, carry and use.

The two polarized efforts are a big problem for our society. And it will cause more grief for both the pros and the antis. Avoidable grief, really.

The answers to this problem are in something I was working on back in the days when I had more time. It's called:

HankT's Theory Of Inverse Firearm Requirements[suP]©[/suP] (HTIFR[suP]©[/suP]).

Too lengthy to describe in this thread. I wrote a blurb about it in prior thread:

http://forums.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?74686


Needs work, I know. But I'm on the right track . . .

In the meantime, I'm stuck in the uhm, traditional, pro-gun camp. It's not as ridiculous at the extremes as the anti-gun camp, IMO, although I could be wrong about that.
 

Potent Dagger

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
31
Location
Alabama
Hi HankT,

I read your post, and read the link to the whole "HankT's Theory Of Inverse Firearm Requirements".

I agree with your assertion that the Brandy Campaign is hopelessly entrenched in the idea that a total ban on guns is the way to go. And to a certain extent I also agree that the NRA's position has become all to predicable, but when your rights are under constant attack, it gets pretty easy to fall into that kind of rut of "just vote no".

But in your post I quote below, I saw a term used that goes to the core of the issue. The term used in Heller, and McDonald, that being "Reasonable Regulation". In Heller, the term "reasonable regulation" was used and now will become the lynch pin of the Constitutionality of every gun regulation and law that sees the light of day in this nation.

But the whole problem of the concept of "Reasonable Regulation" is that it addresses one side of the equation. That equation being lawfully armed citizens on one side, and armed criminals on the other. "Reasonable Regulation" has the effect of unbalancing the equation.

Lawfully Armed Citizens >/= Armed Criminals

Lawfully Armed Citizens < Armed Criminals
Reasonable Regulation

If Reasonable Regulation says I can not carry a gun, then in any confrontation with a violent criminal, that "reasonable regulation" has placed me in danger of being a defenseless victim, which is not "Constitutionally Reasonable Regulation" since it defeats the purpose of the right.

If the concept of the 2nd Amendment, as stated in Heller, is the individuals right to a means of self defense, how does the concept of "Reasonable Regulation" work when the result of the "Reasonable Regulation" is to then take that means of self defense away from me, but not the criminal.

IMHO one of the unfortunate outcomes of Heller and McDonald, is that for the next three to five decades, we will be battling in the courts, and in the court of public opinion, what constitutes "reasonable regulation".

Equally unfortunate is that during the years to come, cases such as the Zimmerman/Martin case will move
public opinion, and effect public policy, resulting in legislation that may or may not reach the Constitutional outcome of delivering "Reasonable Regulation". It is not the clear cut cases of self defense, with or without, a "stand your ground" aspect that will drive the conversation, but those imperfect cases, where even reasonable men can view the same circumstances, and arrive at different outcomes.

In a perfect world, Zimmerman/Martin would be judged based on the facts of the case, and justice would demand that each case be judged based on the evidence, not emotion, or political posturing, but this is not a perfect world, and what should be a call for justice in the Zimmerman/Martin tragedy, has become a demand for revenge by mob mentality, and the wheels of political outcomes to satisfy mob mentality are already in motion.

Right or wrong in his actions, how is Zimmerman to be expected to receive a fair trial, predicated on the presumption of innocence, by a jury who has been contaminated by media and press accounts, public pronouncements of his guilt by elected officials, and the biased narrative of a media that awards, and rewards itself for getting it wrong, more often than they get it right.

In a perfect world, George Zimmerman, would face the judgment of a grand jury, his actions being judged by people who knew nothing of the case before the facts were presented to them, and they would determine if his actions were lawful, or unlawful. But that will not happen in this case. A grand jury will never hear this case, and Zimmerman will be charged, not because of his guilt, but because it has become necessary and politically expedient to place him on trial, to prevent the mob mentality from prevailing resulting in riots and civil unrest throughout this nation.

But what will happen if that trial results in an outcome the mob does not like, such as in the Rodney King case, Zimmerman may go free, based on the evidence, or a mistrial may result based on a pool of people who view the circumstances of the case and arrive at different outcomes.

What will the mob do then, as if it is not a forgone conclusion ,,,,,,and at that point many of us will find safety in the only means we have at our disposal, our right to carry weapons for self defense,,,,unless of course those "Reasonable Regulations" prevent us from having them.



I didn't give them anything. I cannot support the Brady Campaign (although the full name is fine).

The problem is that Brady Campaign pretty much strictly believes in the LGGMGB position. This is a pathetically simplistic position. And it's a hopelessly futile philosophy. So, I cannot support a hopeless (hoplophobic) effort.

I support the NRA and share a lot of the values of all pro-gun orgs (BFA, VCDL, OCDO, etc.). Although, it is increasingly apparent that the pro-gun organizations' reliance on the MGGLGB position is pretty stupid too. It's simplistic, and although it's been HUGELY effective in the last 30 years or so, it's increasingly clunky and too rigid to deal well with issues like "reasonable regulation" of ownership, carry and use.

The two polarized efforts are a big problem for our society. And it will cause more grief for both the pros and the antis. Avoidable grief, really.

The answers to this problem are in something I was working on back in the days when I had more time. It's called:

HankT's Theory Of Inverse Firearm Requirements[suP]©[/suP] (HTIFR[suP]©[/suP]).

Too lengthy to describe in this thread. I wrote a blurb about it in prior thread:

http://forums.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?74686


Needs work, I know. But I'm on the right track . . .

In the meantime, I'm stuck in the uhm, traditional, pro-gun camp. It's not as ridiculous at the extremes as the anti-gun camp, IMO, although I could be wrong about that.
 
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