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Eric Holder's, and jutice for all..

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
More infomation keeps coming forward


Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman (big OOPS coming?)
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 ^ | 3/23/12


ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail
 

ccwinstructor

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Yuma, Arizona, USA
Everyone should read the Sanford City Manager's Statement before judging

I lived in the south when I was in the military, we have one daughter born in GA and another born in Alabama. My comment is, we'll see what happens as this unfolds. I do not want to see Holder's strong arm version of one-sided justice anymore that I want old fashioned one sided "southern justice". Neither are any good for anyone.

Yes, there are black people that are just as bad as any white in how negatively they view the other race. I've seen it, and in the military, I had to deal with it (60's and 70's), and that does not help true justice at all. I think we'll just have to wait and see.

Fellow Citizens:

There has been a lot of media attention to the recent incident where George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. This is indeed a tragic situation and has caused a flood of questions and strong emotions from within our community, the region and nation. On behalf of the employees of the City of Sanford, Our deepest sympathy and prayers go out to the family and friends of Trayvon Martin. As a father, I can only image the pain Trayvon’s family must be going though. In an effort to continue to be as responsive as possible to the public seeking information on the incident, I have asked Chief Lee to provide answers to some of the most frequently asked questions regarding this matter. Below are his responses. Please understand that since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what information it can publicly release.

The City of Sanford is committed to insuring that justice is served and, therefore, the City of Sanford has contacted the United States Attorney General’s Office for assistance in this matter.

The men and women of the Sanford Police Department extend our heartfelt sympathies to the Martin family. This is indeed a tragic situation. The death of anyone due to violence, especially a 17 year old young man, is morally appalling. As this incident has generated a lot of media attention, we wanted to provide answers to some of the most frequently asked questions.

Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?

When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

According to Florida Statute 776.032 : 776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

Why weren’t the 911 tapes initially released?

There are exemptions to the public records laws for active criminal intelligence and for ongoing investigations. In this instance, the 911 calls made by neighbors in the subdivision, and the non- emergency call made by Mr. Zimmerman are all key to the investigation by Sanford Police Department. In consultation with the Office of the State Attorney, the Sanford police department had decided not to release the audio recordings of the 911 calls due to the ongoing investigation. Many times, specific information is contained in those recordings which is vital to the integrity of the investigation. At the time, it was determined that if revealed, the information may compromise the integrity of the investigation prior to its completion. The 911 tapes have since been released.

Why did Mr. Zimmerman have a firearm in his possession while acting in the role of a neighborhood watch member?

Mr. Zimmerman holds a concealed weapon permit issued from the State of Florida. He is authorized to carry the weapon in a concealed manner wherever Florida Statute dictates. Neighborhood Watch programs are designed for members of a neighborhood to be “eyes and ears” for police and to watch out for their neighbors. They are not members of the Police Department nor are they vigilantes. Training provided by law enforcement agencies to Neighborhood Watch organizations stresses non-contact surveillance of suspicious situations and notifying police of those situations so that law enforcement can respond and take control of the situation.

Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred. He was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the Sanford Police Department.

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this investigation?

Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.

Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has a prior arrest history?

In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information. What about media reenactments of the shooting incident? Any media reenactments of the shooting incident are purely speculation. To date the Sanford Police Department has not released any rendition of the events of the evening to anyone other than the Office of the State Attorney. The renditions we have seen are not consistent with the evidence in this case.

The Sanford Police Department has conducted a complete and fair investigation of this incident. We have provided the results of our investigation to the Office of the State Attorney for their review and consideration for possible criminal prosecution.

Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me assure you we too feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically affected our community. Therefore, as we move forward and strive to answer the questions that are a point of controversy in the community, we ask for your patience, understanding and assistance in getting the correct information to the community.

Thank you,

Norton N. Bonaparte, Jr., ICMA-CM City Manager March 19, 2012

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2862657/posts
 

ccwinstructor

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I doubt that Zimmerman weighed 100 pound more. Martin was 6'3"

What is clear is that Zimmerman followed the child. Zimmerman had a flashlight and was patrolling the neighborhood. Zimmerman is not a police officer. Zimmerman had a firearm. The child was unarmed. The child is at least 100 pounds less weight than Zimmerman. The child (IMO) fought off a stalker (Zimmerman). Zimmerman pulls his gun and kills the child.

Fact: None of this would have happened had George Zimmerman not pursued the child and had let the police do their job. Now the nation has a huge "Race" issue once again which should have nothing to do with what happened.

Did you know that Trayvon Martin was 6'3" tall? I doubt that he weighed only 140 pounds. Zimmerman is 5'9". Trayvon overtoped him by half a foot.

Trayvon Martin was a high school football player. George Zimmerman appears to be an out of shape, overweight young man.

I can easily see Trayvon Martin seeing George Zimmerman, and thinking, "I can take this guy".
 
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rcawdor57

Campaign Veteran
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Messages
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Location
Wisconsin, USA
There is no doubt that Zimmerman "defended" himself. That I don't doubt at all. The point is Zimmerman is the cause of this entire ordeal. He had no business trailing anyone. Zimmerman was told not to follow. He continued to follow Trayvon. What the kid should have done is called 911 and gone to a safe location while waiting for the police. But, Trayvon was a young man of 17 who I'm sure never thought to call the police. I think Trayvon decided his life was in danger and acted to protect himself from Zimmerman. Trayvon is the one who legally used the Castle Doctrine. Zimmerman caused this entire event and turned it into a killing situation. Zimmerman should be charged and arrested for murder.
 

Otto Schreck

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Mar 3, 2012
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Berlin
There is no doubt that Zimmerman "defended" himself. That I don't doubt at all. The point is Zimmerman is the cause of this entire ordeal. He had no business trailing anyone. Zimmerman was told not to follow. He continued to follow Trayvon. What the kid should have done is called 911 and gone to a safe location while waiting for the police. But, Trayvon was a young man of 17 who I'm sure never thought to call the police. I think Trayvon decided his life was in danger and acted to protect himself from Zimmerman. Trayvon is the one who legally used the Castle Doctrine. Zimmerman caused this entire event and turned it into a killing situation. Zimmerman should be charged and arrested for murder.

Yah, that would be your theory. No one will know the facts until the grand jury opens the file. Yah.
 

rcawdor57

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Police Report For Zimmerman

Link: https://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

I think it is missing information but it's a start. Link about Zimmerman: http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323,0,6326075.story

The 911 tapes reveal nothing about racism.

The facts: A recent series of break ins in the gated community inspired Zimmerman (who has been out of work, is Hispanic, and has black relatives) to take an active role in patrolling the neighborhood in a "neighborhood watch" type role. Martin was a 17 year old boy who was visiting family in the gated community and he had gone to a corner store to purchase snacks and a beverage (tea).

Zimmerman had called in 46 times in recent months to the police about break ins, mostly after-the-fact, and had done so for his black neighbors as well as his white and Hispanic neighbors. He saw Martin who Zimmerman didn't recognize (being a visitor to the gated community). Martin, not being familiar with the neighborhood was looking around as he entered and walked down the street. Zimmerman thought he was suspicious and started following Martin. Martin became spooked by Zimmerman following him (not knowing in what capacity Zimmerman was following him with), and took off running. Zimmerman followed Martin and eventually caught up, where the two had a physical altercation that ended with Zimmerman shooting Martin and Martin died from the gun shot wound.

In this instance Zimmerman has the legal onus upon him because he was a licensed concealed weapon carrier and because he was taking on the role of a neighborhood watch official and because he chose not only to pursue Martin but to confront Martin. Martin would have been justified in either fleeing or attacking Zimmerman considering the situation. Because of Zimmerman's criminal negligence, at the very least Zimmerman is guilty of Manslaughter, as the "Stand Your Ground" law is not applicable in this case (with Zimmerman being the pursuer). If upon further investigation it is proved that Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation with Martin, then Zimmerman is guilty of 3rd Degree Murder.

All of this hinges upon a trial-by-jury's decision however, as all persons are innocent until proven guilty. Yet, given the facts as known, Zimmerman certainly should be charged and jailed (or released on bail).

The travesty of all of this is that the entire black community of the United States is being rail roaded and they're being victimized on a national level yet again, mostly by their own cultural leaders along with the media persons participating in this blatant case of exploitative "journalism". And it is an injustice that Zimmerman is free while Martin is dead. It seems that the Sanford police are ironically perpetrating the injustice of letting Zimmerman off the hook for the sake of not wanting to set a potential tricky precedent for honest (competent) neighborhood watch participants.

Zimmerman is not a racist. There is no evidence of racism. He made a bad decision that ended the life of an unarmed youth and he deserves to face the legal consequences of that decision. That's it. And the media should universally be ashamed for exploiting the racial divide in this country the way they have.
 
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H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
Yah, that would be your theory. No one will know the facts until the grand jury opens the file. Yah.
No. A Grand Jury does not determine or judge the facts, but only whether probable cause is sustained, then a true bill of indictment is handed down. The stories of 'runaway grand juries' are interesting.
 

wild boar

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
445
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wisconsin
"if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

Obama did no good by making this national statement, it showed bias. Where is Zimmerman going to find justice, in what state? The new Black Panthers have offered a 10,000 reward for the delivery of Zimmerman to justice. CNN had a hour special last night covering the concerned community's perspective on this case. boar out.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
"if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

If he had a son, he' look some like son's grammaw, Obama's mother. Or maybe he does have a son, but that looks juust like FLOTUS, we'll have to wait on Grrls Gone Wild 2012. Eeww.
 

HandyHamlet

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Messages
2,772
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Terra, Sol
Where is Zimmerman going to find justice, in what state?

Nowhere if he exited his car to pursue.

Innocent of instigation?


As for the rest? We already know the Tyrant and his pets are despicable. Don't let them get to you. No really, not figuratively. Don't let them get to you.
 

wild boar

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Messages
445
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wisconsin
Handy, it's sad time in...

...the history of the U.S. They have continued their pursuit to "get to us" which has resulted in them getting at us. The Government has it's finger on the pulse of the nation; not to monitor, but, to apply pressure as needed to control the flow of life source.

Changes have been made that we will never see the end of in our lifetime, as well as our children's. The cherry picking political Justice of this PC nation has to revert to reality. As unrealistic as it is, FTW. It's time to care for the Red, White, and Blue. boar out.
 

E6chevron

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Oct 8, 2011
Messages
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Milwaukee Wisconsin
The LA times article: http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323,0,6326075.story

States that Zimmerman had made at least 46 phone calls to the police in the 8 years or more he had worked for the neighborhood watch group. That calculates to about 6 calls per year, 1 call every 2 months. Doing neighborhood watch duty, that does not seem excessive at all.

The actual physical size of 17 year old Trayvon Martin, seems elusive, although one would think it should be available. In the case of the intruder in Slinger, Wisconsin, the pictures circulated to and thru the media, showed a much younger and slimmer person than the month old mug shots of the intruder.
 

Preferred Customer

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Greenfield, Wi
If we are all writing about Trayvon Martin then I agree. Mr. Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged with 1st degree intentional homicide. I've researched this incident quite a bit and Mr. Zimmerman broke every rule for someone who carries a firearm legally. Zimmerman followed the kid as he walked to a local store to buy Skittles and a Coke (IIRC) and the kid noticed him (good awareness on his part). Zimmerman continued to follow him while carrying a large flashlight and talking on his cell phone to 911 dispatch. 911 told him to STOP following the kid. He didn't stop. Finally the kid encounters Zimmerman and (apparently) kicks the crap out of him. Trayvon is the one who was using the Castle Doctrine of Florida legally. Not Zimmerman. Zimmerman instigated this event and stalked this boy at night through a neighborhood the kid was not familiar with. Trayvon did run to get away from Zimmerman but somehow Zimmerman caught up with him and that is when Trayvon defended himself...with his fists. Zimmerman then pulls out his handgun and kills Trayvon. Clear cut murder in my opinion.

Zimmerman has made around 60 calls to 911 over the last year or two. He thinks he is some kind of vigilante ring leader who can do what he wants. It's terrible that the local police did not investigate this thoroughly and charge and arrest Zimmerman for at least 2nd degree murder.

Here is a link to the 911 calls that night: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnItpb-NQ64

Decide for yourself. As for the feds getting involved that I believe is the only option left to the family of Trayvon since the police are not charging Zimmerman with a crime. It isn't about black VS white. It's about justice for a murdered child.

Do you still think Trayvon was murdered?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/27/new-claims-cast-trayvon-martin-as-aggressor/?test=latestnews

"A slain Florida teenager and the neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed him exchanged words before the teen punched him in the nose and began banging the man's head on the ground, according to the watch captain's account of the confrontation that led to the shooting."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/2...-slammed-his-head-into-ground/?intcmp=related

"The Sentinel said much of Zimmerman's account had been corroborated by witnesses, according to authorities."
 
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Dobb

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34
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Milwaukee
Do you still think Trayvon was murdered?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/27/new-claims-cast-trayvon-martin-as-aggressor/?test=latestnews

"A slain Florida teenager and the neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed him exchanged words before the teen punched him in the nose and began banging the man's head on the ground, according to the watch captain's account of the confrontation that led to the shooting."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/2...-slammed-his-head-into-ground/?intcmp=related

"The Sentinel said much of Zimmerman's account had been corroborated by witnesses, according to authorities."

Don't you ?

―A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.‖ Wis. Stat. § 939.48(2)(c).
 
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H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
―A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.‖ Wis. Stat. § 939.48(2)(c).
What about Wis. Stat. § 939.48(2)(b), the next previous paragraph? Did you not read it, or think we're not smart enough to read all of the statute, or were just cherrypicking the law to your rhetorical advantage?

(b) The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate notice thereof to his or her assailant.
 

Stanley

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Reston, VA
What about Wis. Stat. § 939.48(2)(b), the next previous paragraph? Did you not read it, or think we're not smart enough to read all of the statute, or were just cherrypicking the law to your rhetorical advantage?

(b) The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate notice thereof to his or her assailant.


You assume good faith, adequate notice and may regain...

A) I'll stipulate good notice. Witness said they guy was "crying/begging for help"

B) How long exactly WAS he crying for help? 2 seconds? A minute? 5 Minutes? What exactly is adequate notice during a fight?

C) Even if A and B are satisfied the "may regain" implies that he also may not regain...
 

rcawdor57

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Wisconsin, USA
The LA times article: http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323,0,6326075.story

States that Zimmerman had made at least 46 phone calls to the police in the 8 years or more he had worked for the neighborhood watch group. That calculates to about 6 calls per year, 1 call every 2 months. Doing neighborhood watch duty, that does not seem excessive at all.

The actual physical size of 17 year old Trayvon Martin, seems elusive, although one would think it should be available. In the case of the intruder in Slinger, Wisconsin, the pictures circulated to and thru the media, showed a much younger and slimmer person than the month old mug shots of the intruder.

Zimmerman made 46 calls in the last 12 months, not the last 8 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Neighborhood_watch

snip: "According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman had placed 46 of those calls since the beginning of 2011, "to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents; nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious".[32]

Yes, the media are only showing a very young Trayvon Martin....they should be ashamed of themselves for distorting what he looked like.
 

rcawdor57

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Messages
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Do you still think Trayvon was murdered?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/27/new-claims-cast-trayvon-martin-as-aggressor/?test=latestnews

"A slain Florida teenager and the neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed him exchanged words before the teen punched him in the nose and began banging the man's head on the ground, according to the watch captain's account of the confrontation that led to the shooting."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/2...-slammed-his-head-into-ground/?intcmp=related

"The Sentinel said much of Zimmerman's account had been corroborated by witnesses, according to authorities."

Yes I do. Martin was definitely murdered in my opinion by Zimmerman.
Link: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/08/2684419/shooting-mystery-miami-dade-teen.html

Snip: "Moments later, several calls were made to 911, telling police two men were fighting and shots were fired.

When officer T. Smith arrived at the scene moments later, he found Martin’s body lying face down on the grass about 70 yards from the family’s home, bleeding from a chest wound. He had $22, candy and a can of iced tea in his pockets.

Zimmerman gave police a statement that he stepped out of his car and he and Martin fought. He said he was “yelling for someone to help, but no one would help me.”

Zimmerman had a bloody nose, wet grass stains on his red jacket and was bleeding head wound. Martin was pronounced dead at 7:30 p.m.

“We don’t know what led up to that fight,’’ Lee said."


Let's see if I get this correct...assume I am a neighborhood watch guy and I see a "suspicious person" in my neighborhood at 7 p.m. walking on the sidewalk. I decide to call the police and follow this person. Hmm....the guy that I'm following sees me following him and doesn't know my intent or who I am. The person I'm following decides to defend himself when I get out of my vehicle to confront him (correct use of Florida's Castle Doctrine by Martin) and then I decide to "defend myself" from the event I created by shooting the guy I was following.

George Zimmerman was not innocent of instigation. He started this entire ordeal and he killed a young man in the process. Zimmerman is not a police officer, Zimmerman has no arrest authority, Zimmerman started this entire ordeal, Zimmerman got out of his truck and confronted Martin, Zimmerman killed Martin. You can't claim self defense if you started it. That is Florida law and that is the law in every state I can think of.
 
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