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Thread: Trayvon shooting.

  1. #1
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    Trayvon shooting.

    Its terrible that this happened to Trayvon and my heart goes out to his parents and family, but I am worried that us law abiding gun owners and the 2nd Amendment will be under attack like we havent seen in a long time. What do you all think about this?

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...-like-trayvon/

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    Regular Member REDFIVE48's Avatar
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    There are other posts in General Discussion and in Florida about this topic. It's very sad and I concur that the anti's will seize upon this to attack gun rights and the Stand Your Ground law just passed here in NC. I wrote up some thoughts on this topic:


    I am sad to see people continue to convict others using the media and social networks, when they really don’t know much about the facts. I am not convinced that there was a crime committed, even without the Stand Your Ground law,( how could I, I don’t have all the facts the police do, and neither do any of the half a million people who signed a petition saying Zimmerman is guilty and needs to be arrested) I am not saying he is innocent either. My observations:

    Zimmerman called the police to report the suspicious person, and when seconds counted, the police were minutes away. People are talking about the 911 dispatcher suggesting Zimmerman didn’t need to pursue, but people are not required to abide by the suggestion of a 911 dispatcher, they are not police officers. Nobody would say anything if it turned out that he followed him until the police got there, and it turned out that he had just burglarized a home; at the point in time all the info was not available.

    People have already come to the conclusion that Trayvon was the one yelling for help, so Zimmerman must have attacked him. The only witness I have seen on a news interview has stated that it was Zimmerman who was yelling for help, and that also matches up with Zimmerman’s statement. The people on the phone only heard the yells, so how do they know who was actually yelling?

    Zimmerman’s statement is that he was attacked. The police (the same apparently incompetent ones who failed to arrest Zimmerman, yet according to the public are the only ones who can protect you, what irony), after investigating the scene and Zimmerman, believe that to be true based on his account of the events and the fact he had a bloody nose, injury to back side of the head, and grass on the back of his jacket. The witness on camera also stated he saw the man with the red jacket (Zimmerman) on the ground being beaten up. What would help here is if they would release any wounds Trayvon had besides the gunshot wound.

    So the only leg people are using is that the teenager was unarmed, or did I miss something? Being unarmed doesn’t mean you can’t be dangerous. Appearantly his girlfriend on the phone told him to run, which he did at one point, why not run all the way to the home he was visiting (he was only 70 yards away)?

    On to the neighbors, nothing bothers me more than that fact nobody else got involved. The eyewitness went inside his house, up to the second floor, and called the police instead of trying to break up the fight he saw happening in front of him. All the other callers of 911 didn’t get involved. It actually appears nobody went to check stuff out until after the shot! How backwards is that? Go help someone yelling for help instead of cowering in your house behind the phone. This is exactly what is wrong with this current society, no personal responsibility for your own safety or that of your neighbors.

    Now for the Justice Department, well, well, the POTUS has learned enough to keep his mouth shut since he doesn’t know the facts and he was already bitten by calling the race card incorrectly, but I guess Holder has to learn his lesson. Really, a federal civil rights investigation?

    If the report of him being 70 yards away from the house he was visiting is correct, how in the world did the parents not know what was happening in the neighborhood and only wait till the next morning to report him missing? Very strange to me, unrelated to anything, but still strange to me as a parent.

    Unrelated observation, the picture of Trayvon that is all over the news of him in a red shirt, how old is that picture? Did they pick a picture from his 8th grade yearbook as opposed to his junior year? Or did he really look that young? Of course in the dark, you don’t know who you are dealing with. I only mention this because if it is a few years old, then the family and news are purposely trying to sway viewers.
    Last edited by REDFIVE48; 03-23-2012 at 02:11 PM.

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    i have tried to ascertain where the young man was shot, frontal or in the back? i have heard conflicting reports from everyone...

    any bets on what great issue is going to catch the media's eye next...

    wabbit

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    I just hope they end up handling this case properly. I wasn't there, and the stories are so mixed that I can't even form much of an opinion about what happened, because it might be wrong. So, I just hope they figure out what happened for sure, and that he's either charged with what's necessary, or he's left alone for doing as he said, using self defense.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    there were 40 killings in Chicago last week by gang members. the youngest was 6. where are the protests of that?

    i also read an article that said, Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot

    http://www.examiner.com/charleston-c...#ixzz1pttk2GEJ
    Last edited by papa bear; 03-23-2012 at 09:13 PM.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    there were 40 killings in Chicago last week by gang members. the youngest was 6. where are the protests of that?

    i also read an article that said, Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot

    http://www.examiner.com/charleston-c...#ixzz1pttk2GEJ
    From what I gather, Zimmerman followed the kid after he was told NOT to. I will bet the kid was scared of Zimmerman.How would you feel if you were walking down the street and someone was following you, at night no less. I think this was a bad shooting,not on purpose, but Zimmerman was way out of line from what I heard,and caused the situation to escalate into a pile of sh%t. In my humble opinion Zimmerman was a dumb a$$.

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    This is a train wreck and it's starting to look like everyone that was involved is culpable in the mess it has become. Trayvon probably should not have been where he was. Zimmerman should not have injected himself into the situation by following him. And the PD should have taken this much more seriously. I'm hoping they are capable to salvaging a decent investigation at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    there were 40 killings in Chicago last week by gang members. the youngest was 6. where are the protests of that?

    i also read an article that said, Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot

    http://www.examiner.com/charleston-c...#ixzz1pttk2GEJ
    I was asking some folks nearly that exact same question. Where is the out rage in that gang shooting or all of the incidents where innocent people that get caught in the cross fire of rival gangs gets killed? Is all the outrage because Zimmerman is half white?

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Witness backs up Self-Defense Claim

    There is a witness that has given a statement to the police that supports that Zimmerman was getting beaten up.

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    There is a witness that has given a statement to the police that supports that Zimmerman was getting beaten up.

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012
    Is it legal to claim self-defense if you are the one that initiated contact where no danger of loss of life was present prior to your contact?

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    Is it legal to claim self-defense if you are the one that initiated contact where no danger of loss of life was present prior to your contact?
    Having someone on your chest slamming your head in to the pavement is enough of a threat don't you think?

    I have no problem with someone following a potential burglar to report where they go before the police get there. The 911 call has exactly that happening when Treyvon turns and starts coming towards the neighborhood watch guy. The initial report in to 911 describes Treyvon as lurking around behind the houses and looking around, which can be burglar behavior. Considering that this neighborhood had seen a rash of burglaries, his behavior was suspicious.

    Using your logic, should we all just cower in fear and not lift a finger to stop crime in our neighborhoods?

    Another strange thing, this guy gets shot 70 yards from where he was staying, which was not his parents home, and no one from that home even knew he got shot? According to the coroner, it took them three days to track down his parents. Why was this? Sounds like the parents were not doing their job and now out of guilt and political motives have started screaming over this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    Having someone on your chest slamming your head in to the pavement is enough of a threat don't you think?
    I think Rotor was referring to what may have lead up to that. If someone follows me for 6 blocks I am eventually going to turn around and say wtf dude. It SEEMS doubtful that someone would simply turn around and tackle you JUST for following them, without any aggressive verbal exchange, but crazier things happen every day so who knows?

    To initiate aggressive contact with someone, even verbally, and then pull your gun when they jump on you is just stepping in a deep pile of manure in my opinion. Even if the physical attack by them, on you, is unwarranted in a legal sense. If a reasonable person concludes that without your precipitating role there would have been no tussle to begin with, that's no bueno.

    I'm just speaking in generalities here. I don't know much about this particular case so I'm certainly not accusing Zimmerman of doing anything other than following the guy.

    If I suspected someone walking down my street to be up to some SPECIFIC no good, then I would call the law and perhaps follow them for a short while, discreetly and at as great a distance as possible. After a couple of blocks, or once they took notice, I'm handing the responsibility over to the boys in blue. At that point they will probably steer clear of that area anyway since there are pesky, observant residents with cell phones there.

    Taking a picture of someone can also be a huge deterrent to present or future criminal activity in the area. I did that on a job site once when a guy attempting to hock clearly stolen power tools out of his trunk pulled up. He practically vanished!

    Bottom line, try not to be the guy that starts a fight. You may find yourself the subject of national news coverage if shtf.
    Last edited by Smith45acp; 03-25-2012 at 01:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    Is it legal to claim self-defense if you are the one that initiated contact where no danger of loss of life was present prior to your contact?
    Yes, but in common law, it's 'imperfect self defense'. That means an involuntary manslaughter charge unless the prosecution can show there was malice aforethought.

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    More info, better analysis

    Hey, Mods - Let's please use those forum tools and MERGE these threads so we're not repeating ourselves five time over, ok? Thanks!

    Onward...

    Article: Obama gets personal over killing of black Florida teenager

    What an immoral opportunist Obama must be! Here are some FACTS, directly from the police report, the media keeps either getting wrong or simply ignores:

    1. The pictures repeatedly displayed by the media are when the kid was 14. Trayvon isn't a kid. He was 17 when he attacked Zimmerman and no longer looked "sweet and innocent" as the media keeps deceptively portraying.

    2. Trayvon was on a 5-day suspension from school for ...you guessed it... fighting.

    3. Trayvon was 6'2" and a high school football player, a stature and occupation even I would find physically intimidating.

    4. According to the police report, Zimmerman's back was sopping wet from where he'd been on his back, in the grass, as Trayvon pummeled his face with blows from his fists. Zimmerman's nose was bloodied, as was the back of his head, from where Trayvon had repeatedly slammed struck him in the face and slammed his head into the ground.

    5. Again, according to the police report, the eyewitness observed Trayvon sitting on top of Zimmerman, bludgeoning him repeatedly as Zimmerman screamed for help. The eyewitness headed inside to call 911, heard a gunshot, and looked out the window to see Trayvon lying on the ground, apparently dead.

    Conclusions, based on BEHAVIOR, rather than racism, very misleading media portrayals, and family bias:

    A. Whether Zimmerman initially approached Trayvon or not is immaterial.

    B. What's material is Trayvon's BEHAVIOR, namely, his aggravated assault against Zimmerman immediately prior to the shooting, and Zimmerman's firing of his weapon thus ending the assault.

    C. The police department hasn't pressed charges as this is clearly and undeniably (unless you're a racist idiot or member of the biased media) an act of justifiable homicide required as last resort means of self defense.

    Let's examine what would have happened if Zimmerman has NOT shot Trayvon:

    a. The athletic but violently out of control 17-year-old would have beaten Zimmerman into unconsciousness or even death.

    b. If he'd only beaten Zimmerman into unconsciousness, Trayvon could very well have taken Zimmerman's gun, at which point we would now have an armed felon running around, or Trayvon could have shot Zimmerman at which point we would have had a muderering armed felon running around.

    What DID NOT happen: Zimmerman did NOT chase Trayvon down and shoot him. If he had, he'd be behind bars and awaiting charges or at least a hearing.

    Here's what else IS true: Obama is a reprehensible opportunist praying on the black and minority communities in the midst of this tragedy to engender support for reelection.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    The link below has all of the 911 transcripts and some interesting commentary.

    http://motherjones.com/politics/2012...ned#transcript

    People are asking why Zimmerman followed Treyvon. If you listen to his 911 call, it appears he had lost sight of the guy. This is backed up by the girlfriend that said Treyvon thought he had lost Zimmerman.

    At this point, Zimmerman is still thinking that this guy was a potential burglar as he had seen Treyvon loitering behind the houses and there had been numerous burglaries in that neighborhood lately. Zimmerman was wanting to be able to tell the police where Treyvon was so he did follow.

    Treyvon's girlfriend further states that Treyvon thought he had lost him but then said that Zimmerman suddenly reappeared.

    What the girlfriend said and what Zimmerman said sounds like Zimmerman lost Treyvon and then went looking for him and suddenly came upon him. Zimmerman was trying to keep Treyvon in sight so he could tell the police where to find him.

    What exactly happened next is up for debate but somehow Treyvon ended up on top of Zimmerman beating him pretty bad.

    The media wants you to think that Zimmerman just drew his gun and shot Treyvon. That is not true. There is a witness that saw the fight and had to go in to his house to get his phone to call 911. His call sheds light on how long the fight went on.

    Other than the gunshot wound, it has been reported that Treyvon had no other injuries. Zimmerman had his face and back of his head bloodied from being pounded and slammed in to ground.

    I would be far less skeptical of the media's reporting if they quit posting that sweet innocent looking picture of Treyvon when he was 14. It is disgusting how they are playing to everyone's emotions. I would speculate that a more current picture of him exists but it does not convey the sweet and innocent look of the one at 14.

    The media wants to portray Zimmerman as a nut that called police all the time. They want to call him a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain as if that was a bad thing. Other neighbors have said that Zimmerman was looking out for all of them and few others would volunteer as the neighborhood was going downhill quickly.

    The police report that a previous 911 call from Zimmerman had resulted in burglars being caught in the act.

    This tells me that he saw problems in his neighborhood and tried to help out. There is nothing wrong with that.

    One thing is for sure, the people stirring this up are not doing it to help future Treyvon's. They are doing it to further a far different agenda.

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    b. If he'd only beaten Zimmerman into unconsciousness, Trayvon could very well have taken Zimmerman's gun, at which point we would now have an armed felon running around, or Trayvon could have shot Zimmerman at which point we would have had a muderering armed felon running around.
    So by your logic, if zimmerman attacked trayvon first, and trayvon had gotten a hold of zimmermans gun and shot him in self defense, trayvon would have been a murderer. But the situation in reverse was a good shoot?

    What DID NOT happen: Zimmerman did NOT chase Trayvon down and shoot him. If he had, he'd be behind bars and awaiting charges or at least a hearing.
    Ummm, that's kinda exactly what happened... he didn't chase him down and tickle him to death...

    Would you instigate a confrontation and shoot someone cause they got the best of you trying to defend themselves?
    Cause I can guarantee one thing, trayvon didn't chase zimmerman down to attack him!

    1000 to 1 odds says Zimmerman wouldn't have followed if he didn't have that bit of steel courage on his side. And if he's willing to insert himself into a situation just because he's armed, he's carrying for the wrong reasons to begin with.


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    Last edited by J_Oliver; 03-25-2012 at 08:34 PM.
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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Oliver View Post
    So by your logic, if zimmerman attacked trayvon first, and trayvon had gotten a hold of zimmermans gun and shot him in self defense, trayvon would have been a murderer. But the situation in reverse was a good shoot?



    Ummm, that's kinda exactly what happened... he didn't chase him down and tickle him to death...

    Would you instigate a confrontation and shoot someone cause they got the best of you trying to defend themselves?
    Cause I can guarantee one thing, trayvon didn't chase zimmerman down to attack him!

    1000 to 1 odds says Zimmerman wouldn't have followed if he didn't have that bit of steel courage on his side. And if he's willing to insert himself into a situation just because he's armed, he's carrying for the wrong reasons to begin with.


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    I love your quote at the end of your post. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Is this your position only, and Mr. Zimmerman is ineligible for the same?
    Last edited by hotrod; 03-26-2012 at 09:48 AM.
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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Oliver View Post

    Would you instigate a confrontation and shoot someone cause they got the best of you trying to defend themselves?
    Cause I can guarantee one thing, trayvon didn't chase zimmerman down to attack him!


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    how do you know that Martin( using his last name) didn't pursue Zimmerman? in the reported evidence Martin was attacking Zimmerman. could he (Martin) have said, "i'm going to show this guy to follow me"
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    So exactly when/how does a fist fight (while you are armed) turn into a reason to pull the gun and shoot your adversary?

    I know it's kind of a loaded question.

    -On the one hand, I've had my ass kicked before and it's really not as bad as I thought it would be.
    -But every time I've ever been in a fight there have been other people around that I really don't think would have stood by and let my already unconscious skull get stomped into the pavement if it came to that.
    -But if we're talking about someone who I know has selected me for a purely criminal purpose like robbery, and there aren't other people around that I think would step in, why would I trust him to stop attacking me when I became incapacitated?

    If a weapon of pretty much any kind comes out then mine will too, I'm assuming the other person to be unarmed for this scenario as Trayvon was.

    Assume it's one on one, he appears unarmed, he's about your size, and there's no talking him out of the fight. What then?
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

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    Regular Member ArmySoldier22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Oliver View Post
    So by your logic, if zimmerman attacked trayvon first, and trayvon had gotten a hold of zimmermans gun and shot him in self defense, trayvon would have been a murderer. But the situation in reverse was a good shoot?



    Ummm, that's kinda exactly what happened... he didn't chase him down and tickle him to death...

    Would you instigate a confrontation and shoot someone cause they got the best of you trying to defend themselves?
    Cause I can guarantee one thing, trayvon didn't chase zimmerman down to attack him!

    1000 to 1 odds says Zimmerman wouldn't have followed if he didn't have that bit of steel courage on his side. And if he's willing to insert himself into a situation just because he's armed, he's carrying for the wrong reasons to begin with.


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    First of all.. I have no idea where you're logic even begins to come from, but here goes:

    That isn't even close to what he said. He elaborated on the situation that had happened, stating that if trayvon had beaten him into unconciousness "which he was well on his way to doing" that he could have taken Zimmerman's firearm away and used it against him. He made no mention at all of the hypothetical situation you're bringing up. TRAYVON WAS BEATING ZIMMERMAN, SLAMMING HIS HEAD INTO THE GROUND. A little excessive don't ya think? Having your head slammed into the ground is definitely a reason to fear for your life, and a very good reason to defend it.

    Zimmerman didn't chase him down, did you read anything? At all? He followed him from a distance AFTER talking with law enforcement, so that he could notify the officers arriving on the scene where Trayvon was at. Sounds like a good neighborhood watch to me. Especially since Zimmerman's reports have helped in the past with problems in the neighborhood. Trayvon wasn't just standing around, he was lurking behind houses. Very suspicious behavior and worth notice from a neighborhood watch. Zimmerman didn't chase anybody down, he followed from a distance and lost him, before abruptly coming upon him again. So in your mind, that makes it ok that Trayvon just attacked him and started beating him to death?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post
    So exactly when/how does a fist fight (while you are armed) turn into a reason to pull the gun and shoot your adversary?

    I know it's kind of a loaded question.

    -On the one hand, I've had my ass kicked before and it's really not as bad as I thought it would be.
    -But every time I've ever been in a fight there have been other people around that I really don't think would have stood by and let my already unconscious skull get stomped into the pavement if it came to that.
    -But if we're talking about someone who I know has selected me for a purely criminal purpose like robbery, and there aren't other people around that I think would step in, why would I trust him to stop attacking me when I became incapacitated?

    If a weapon of pretty much any kind comes out then mine will too, I'm assuming the other person to be unarmed for this scenario as Trayvon was.

    Assume it's one on one, he appears unarmed, he's about your size, and there's no talking him out of the fight. What then?
    When the fistfight turns into a fight for your life. Having your head repeatedly slammed into the ground definitely qualifies as a life threatening situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    I love your quote at the end of your post. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Is this your position only, and Mr. Zimmerman is ineligible for the same?
    Mr. Zimmerman and anyone else in this situation is entitled to the same.

    I'm not ignorant, I know the facts of the case. I'm playing devils advocate from the point of view of an outsider in an attempt to figure out how this has blown up into the media stir that it is. I believe in the same situation I would have fired the shot, I just wouldn't have gotten close enough to provoke the confrontation. I see the conflicting accounts of zimmerman on top of trayvon and the accounts of trayvon on top of zimmerman. By zimmerman's own testimony, trayvon reached for his gun during the struggle... that's enough for me to call it justified. Then there's the witness that stated zimmerman shot trayvon after trayvon went down...

    I draw my opinions from multiple sources, not just what I read on a forum. Or just one news source. I don't like the fact that because he was a young black man that Al Sharpton has stuck his nose in it and all of a sudden it's a race issue... don't get me started on that...

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    Last edited by J_Oliver; 03-26-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Oliver View Post
    Mr. Zimmerman and anyone else in this situation is entitled to the same.

    I'm not ignorant, I know the facts of the case. I'm playing devils advocate from the point of view of an outsider in an attempt to figure out how this has blown up into the media stir that it is. I believe in the same situation I would have fired the shot, I just wouldn't have gotten close enough to provoke the confrontation. I see the conflicting accounts of zimmerman on top of trayvon and the accounts of trayvon on top of zimmerman. By zimmerman's own testimony, trayvon reached for his gun during the struggle... that's enough for me to call it justified. Then there's the witness that stated zimmerman shot trayvon after trayvon went down...

    I draw my opinions from multiple sources, not just what I read on a forum. Or just one news source. I don't like the fact that because he was a young black man that Al Sharpton has stuck his nose in it and all of a sudden it's a race issue... don't get me started on that...

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    Then I apologize for the tone of my prior post. Your other one made it seem like you just hadn't paid any attention to what was going on. However, I can respect wanting to look at it from all sides. I think the family is a big reason why it turned into such a media issue. I receive emails from an organization that deals with a lot of petitions, and his family has a few of them going around.. with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of signatures. I think the media is just taking advantage of the whole situation in any way they can.
    Last edited by ArmySoldier22; 03-26-2012 at 06:04 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member J_Oliver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySoldier22 View Post
    Then I apologize for the tone of my prior post. Your other one made it seem like you just hadn't paid any attention to what was going on. However, I can respect wanting to look at it from all sides. I think the family is a big reason why it turned into such a media issue. I receive emails from an organization that deals with a lot of petitions, and his family has a few of them going around.. with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of signatures. I think the media is just taking advantage of the whole situation in any way they can.
    I probably should have stated my intentions to begin with. I have a scientists mindset in that I wanted true, unbiased responses from people. I agree 100% that the family refuses to believe their son could do any wrong. I have a 5 year old son and my response would have been: "What did he do." While trying to figure out what happened. I guess that's where my parenting differs from 99% of other parents...

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    Last edited by J_Oliver; 03-27-2012 at 12:00 AM.
    "I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six..."

    [ Kyd: "I think I'm gonna have "13 1/2" tattooed on my shoulder..."

    Me: "Why the hell would you do that?"

    Kyd: "Thats one judge, 12 jurors, and a half a chance I'm gonna get off..." ]

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