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Thread: Cite Needed, No CPL for Sevicemen?

  1. #1
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    Cite Needed, No CPL for Sevicemen?

    My X/gf signed on to the National Guard, and she was upset because she had been told that people in active duty were forbidden under federal law from obtaining a CPL. She relayed to me, that a soldier could not even carry or get a license to do so, even in their homes off duty.

    Recently, there was a discussion about a law allowing servicemen to get a CPL below the normal age of 21.

    ETA she is a Tennessee resident.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 03-23-2012 at 01:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    i don't have a cite but this write up seems to make it clear that active military can get CCW. It even mentions that TN cut training time in 1/2 for military that can show previous proof of pistol training.

    http://www.legallyarmed.com/military.htm
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Thanks.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I think it only applies to official line of duty -- not sure.

    Ex: service guy driving his delivery truck with his sidearm.

    Any major involvement would violate Possie commitatus (sp) -- but Obama and GWB seem to be ok with that.
    Last edited by TheQ; 03-23-2012 at 02:42 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    found this article

    http://www.littlerock.af.mil/news/st...p?id=123195567 which stated that a military base is Federal property

    Which referenced this law

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—

    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    I'm sure that carrying while on duty is what the person was referring to, off duty however youre free to do basically as you please. I have a friend still in the AF who has his CPL and regularly carries with no problems.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I have about thirty-five years of military service and carried quite often. Off duty was OFF duty. Carry if its legal. On duty, the key was, if I needed a weapon I asked for it. When we would go on funeral detail , the rifle team had M16s. When we traveled, I was "given authorization" to protect the weapons. I carried an issue M9 Berretta, out of site, but ready. Personal weapons, on duty, were NOT authorized.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    I'm sure that carrying while on duty is what the person was referring to, off duty however youre free to do basically as you please. I have a friend still in the AF who has his CPL and regularly carries with no problems.

    No, she was told she couldnt do it off duty either. I told her BS, I'll find out.

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    Tell her to contact the legal offic on base, they can look it up for her.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    I was active duty Army for 10 years. I got my MI CPL while I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, KY (on the KY/TN border) in 2004. I carried everywhere OFF base while OFF duty. Carry on a base is at the discretion of the base commander, and to my knowledge there are 0 base commanders that have authorized it outright for everyone. There may be some individuals who they give exception to policy letters to to do it, but even MP's are not automatically exempt. As stated above, bases are federal property, and the base commander has practically limitless power to make and enforce rules in addition to federal law/UCMJ on the base. Having a CPL is not mentioned in any article of the UCMJ, and as long as you're not violating state/federal law, there is no article in the UCMJ that would be violated by having a CPL and carrying a weapon off base. That being said, when you're off base AND off duty, there is nothing preventing you from getting a license and carrying. In fact, part of the process to become a Special Forces Soldier involves getting a CPL (or whatever that state calls it).

  11. #11
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    10 USC 502(a), "orders of the officers appointed over me,"

    And then I looked into the UCMJ and regulations and found nothing in law preventing a commanding officers prohibition of personal firearms, or, indeed, requiring a soldier be allowed off base at all. So, turn the question around. What regulation prevents a CO from forbidding personal firearms? What regulation requires an enlisted off base privileges?

    Bear in mind that it wasn't too many years ago that enlisted living off base was an earned privilege.

    Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
    “I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

  12. #12
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    10 USC 1062 Public Law 111-383

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-...tII-chap53.pdf

    PROHIBITION ON INFRINGING ON THE INDIVIDUAL RIGHT TO LAWFULLY ACQUIRE, POSSESS, OWN, CARRY, AND OTHERWISE USE PRIVATELY OWNED FIREARMS, AMMUNITION, AND OTHER WEAPONS

    Pub. L. 111–383, div. A, title X, § 1062, Jan. 7, 2011, 124 Stat. 4363,
    provided that:
    ‘‘(a) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in subsection
    (c), the Secretary of Defense shall not prohibit, issue
    any requirement relating to, or collect or record any
    information relating to the otherwise lawful acquisition,
    possession, ownership, carrying, or other use of a
    privately owned firearm, privately owned ammunition,
    or another privately owned weapon by a member of the
    Armed Forces or civilian employee of the Department
    of Defense on property that is not—
    ‘‘(1) a military installation; or
    ‘‘(2) any other property that is owned or operated
    by the Department of Defense.
    ‘‘(b) EXISTING REGULATIONS AND RECORDS.—
    ‘‘(1) REGULATIONS.—Any regulation promulgated before
    the date of enactment of this Act [Jan. 7, 2011]
    shall have no force or effect to the extent that it requires
    conduct prohibited by this section.
    ‘‘(2) RECORDS.—Not later than 90 days after the date
    of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense
    shall destroy any record containing information described
    in subsection (a) that was collected before the
    date of enactment of this Act.
    ‘‘(c) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.—Subsection (a) shall not
    be construed to limit the authority of the Secretary of
    Defense to—
    ‘‘(1) create or maintain records relating to, or regulate
    the possession, carrying, or other use of a firearm,
    ammunition, or other weapon by a member of
    the Armed Forces or civilian employee of the Department
    of Defense while—
    ‘‘(A) engaged in official duties on behalf of the
    Department of Defense; or
    ‘‘(B) wearing the uniform of an Armed Force; or
    ‘‘(2) create or maintain records relating to an investigation,
    prosecution, or adjudication of an alleged
    violation of law (including regulations not prohibited
    under subsection (a)), including matters related to
    whether a member of the Armed Forces constitutes a
    threat to the member or others.
    ‘‘(d) REVIEW.—Not later than 180 days after the date
    of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense
    shall—
    ‘‘(1) conduct a comprehensive review of the privately
    owned weapons policy of the Department of
    Defense, including legal and policy issues regarding
    the regulation of privately owned firearms off of a
    military installation, as recommended by the Department
    of Defense Independent Review Related to Fort
    Hood; and
    ‘‘(2) submit to the Committee on Armed Services of
    the Senate and the Committee on Armed Services of
    the House of Representatives a report regarding the
    findings of and recommendations relating to the review
    conducted under paragraph (1), including any
    recommendations for adjustments to the requirements
    under this section.
    ‘‘(e) MILITARY INSTALLATION DEFINED.—In this section,
    the term ‘military installation’ has the meaning
    given that term under section 2687(e)(1) of title 10,
    United States Code.’’

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    If they stop you from going off base (or going anywhere outside your duty area) that's called restriction. It's one of the punishments that they can apply to you if you get an Article 15. The simple fact is that there isn't enough housing on base for everyone. Since 2006 the Army's housing policy has allowed anyone E-6 or above to opt to live off base. Once you live off base, they cannot stop you from having a pistol in your residence. If you lived on base, you would have to register your weapon in accordance with the base policies, and then store it in your unit arms room. You would then need to check it out of the arms room whenever you wanted to use it. I don't know of a single commander who has ever even cared about whether their Soldiers owned firearms. I was enlisted for 10 years, and I was a senior NCO. I can count on one hand the amount of senior officers that I respect. I don't like saying nice things about officers. If a commander had some kind of policy about firearms, I would recommend going to the base legal office or IG about it. If that didn't get anywhere, find a civilian lawyer with UCMJ experience. With the way the military is now, I'm sure that a commander would have to have a good reason to have such a policy. The military can get away with a lot of restrictive policies, because of the contract that all service members signed and the oaths they swore, but usually off base activity unless subversive or CI related, or a violation of state/federal law is ignored.

    *edited typo with year Army's housing policy changed*
    Last edited by xarmy9; 03-24-2012 at 06:19 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xarmy9 View Post
    I was active duty Army for 10 years. I got my MI CPL while I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, KY (on the KY/TN border) in 2004. I carried everywhere OFF base while OFF duty. Carry on a base is at the discretion of the base commander, and to my knowledge there are 0 base commanders that have authorized it outright for everyone. There may be some individuals who they give exception to policy letters to to do it, but even MP's are not automatically exempt. As stated above, bases are federal property, and the base commander has practically limitless power to make and enforce rules in addition to federal law/UCMJ on the base. Having a CPL is not mentioned in any article of the UCMJ, and as long as you're not violating state/federal law, there is no article in the UCMJ that would be violated by having a CPL and carrying a weapon off base. That being said, when you're off base AND off duty, there is nothing preventing you from getting a license and carrying. In fact, part of the process to become a Special Forces Soldier involves getting a CPL (or whatever that state calls it).
    my brother and i were both in the marine corps and this was our experience as well. generally any behavior not regulated by the UCMJ is acceptable, especially when off duty/off base. i was required to "register" my firearms on base since i lived in the barracks. however, my choice was store them in the armory or somewhere off base. i rented a uhaul storage locker near the base to avoid having the armory personnel finger my weapons. firearm ownership was very common in the military especially among the married guys who lived off base in their own residence. carrying private firearms in uniform was never acceptable.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 03-24-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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    Thumbs up

    That is some really good info, thank you so much.

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    Alaska

    As I recall, a few years ago after a series of incidents in which soldiers off duty, off base defended themselves with persona handguns, the Commanding General of US Army Forces, Alaska, issued an order that soldiers could not carry handguns off base at all, even if they had a permit/license to do so. It backfired a bit when the wives of the soldiers started carrying the handguns instead. I'll try to dig up the info; I think it was on packing.org and KABA.

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    Here we go....

    http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch...?t-203721.html

    The policy has now been rescinded due to passage of the NDAA; soldiers are now governed by Alaska law when off-post & off-duty.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I think it only applies to official line of duty -- not sure.

    Ex: service guy driving his delivery truck with his sidearm.

    Any major involvement would violate Possie commitatus (sp) -- but Obama and GWB seem to be ok with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    No, she was told she couldnt do it off duty either. I told her BS, I'll find out.
    Is she MI NG? If so I would be interested in who gave her that info. Its just not true, and especially if she is off post. I got my CPL while enlisted, and stored my personal weapons at whatever armory at the base I was at. And even if she was stationed someplace else as long as her home of record was MI and shes old enough then I do not know of any restrictions that would out right ban her from a CPL. The person relating the info just probably had/has the wrong info.

    just noyiced you said TN, have her check local laws but there is no military UCMJ that would keep her from it.
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 03-25-2012 at 01:27 AM.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Warning: Slight digression from Michigan laws (since Federal code was mentioned)
    In Georgia, persons in the military service of the State or of the United States fall under the same provisions as Sheriff's, Deputies, Police Officers, Judges, Prosecutors, and many more; 16-11-130

    However.... you still must obey any military rules and regulations in regards to carry while in uniform, e.g. the Georgia State Defense Force prohibits members from carrying while in uniform.

    Would appear hard for there to be a Federal prohibition if that is the state law, wouldn't it?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-25-2012 at 08:31 AM.

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    I think too many posts have gone beyond the original point: She is in the National Guard. Even full time, she would not be living on a base. Only while on duty would she be restricted as to the carry of a firearm. Off duty, she is her own person and can carry as state/local law allows. Carry on the base is regulated by the military; normally absolutely no CC. TRANSPORT through the base, or to a designated place on place is usually allowed.

    As mentioned, the legal (AG) staff should provide the legal advice. The Provost Marshall office will have the regulation.
    Also, CC is normally restricted to the Army's CID agents, as they are usually in civilian attire.

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