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Thread: NRA: Protecting your right to protect yourself

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    NRA: Protecting your right to protect yourself

    I finished reading the Apr 2012 issue of American Rifleman today and noted that Chris Cox's (NRA-ILA Executive Director) multi-page Castle Doctrine article said in part:

    "Currently, the NRA is working to enact Castle Doctrine legislation in Iowa and Virginia, and for improvements to existing Castle Doctrine laws in Alaska, Nebraska and Washington. Just as we work toward the day when all states allow all good citizens of age to carry firearms for protection, we will work until all states fully protect the right of law-abiding people to use force in defense of themselves and one another, without fear of prison or bankruptcy. Decent people have a right to nothing less."
    Bolding mine.

    I'm hoping someone in a leadership position at VCDL is planning on penning a reader letter ("Readers Write") to set the record straight on why this year's NRA-backed proposals didn't pass muster and would have been a huge step backward for Virginians. Only a letter from the VCDL President or an ED has a prayer's chance of being published. I trust the opportunity will be seized.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911 Enthusiast View Post

    Only a letter from the VCDL President or an ED has a prayer's chance of being published.
    Congratulations ED! I missed your appointment to VCDL Leadership or do you mean an EM?
    Last edited by peter nap; 03-24-2012 at 08:28 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    I just read somewhere that the NRA supported the legislation that the Hughes Amendment was tacked on. That's 3 strikes for the NRA with me.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911 Enthusiast View Post
    I finished reading the Apr 2012 issue of American Rifleman today and noted that Chris Cox's (NRA-ILA Executive Director) multi-page Castle Doctrine article said in part:



    Bolding mine.

    I'm hoping someone in a leadership position at VCDL is planning on penning a reader letter ("Readers Write") to set the record straight on why this year's NRA-backed proposals didn't pass muster and would have been a huge step backward for Virginians. Only a letter from the VCDL President or an ED has a prayer's chance of being published. I trust the opportunity will be seized.

    Think back. Have you EVER seen the NRA print a letter that is even vaguely critical of their position? I'll wait.






    I thought not.

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911 Enthusiast View Post

    I'm hoping someone in a leadership position at VCDL is planning on penning a reader letter ("Readers Write") to set the record straight on why this year's NRA-backed proposals didn't pass muster and would have been a huge step backward for Virginians. Only a letter from the VCDL President or an ED has a prayer's chance of being published. I trust the opportunity will be seized.
    The NRA seldom (never?) publishes letters opposed to their agenda/goals no matter from whom they are received.

    VCDL's decision to oppose the Castle Doctrine bills before the GA this year was presented publicly and reported by numerous media outlets where VCDL president, Philip Van Cleave was quoted. This was also included in Va-Alert over PVC's signature.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Congratulations ED! I missed your appointment to VCDL Leadership or do you mean an EM?
    I don't know what an EM is but I'd suspect the OP was referring to the Executive Directors or the BoD as I guess they are known by...you know, Fenter, Jackson, O'Conner, etc.

    Agree w/Tess though, would have to be well crafted and lay out the cold facts w/o specifically challenging the NRA position to avoid disappearing into the circular file. That crowd has thin skin about ideas which don't originate in the Fairfax Hqs but I agree someone should try to get our position published for the tens of thousands of readers throughout the country who don't follow the forums nor, for that matter, even have a clue what VCDL is.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob1 View Post
    I don't know what an EM is but I'd suspect the OP was referring to the Executive Directors or the BoD as I guess they are known by...you know, Fenter, Jackson, O'Conner, etc.

    .
    Like many things Bob, it was a private joke only a handful of people understand
    (Not really important but Ed is an EM as is Tess and 60 or 70 others)

    A letter is fine but has no chance of being published. Unfortunately, the NRA is rapidly becoming the enemy of most gun owners.
    The letter will be seen by more if a CC is published in he Alerts. This is not a new problem and VCDL has had to respond to the NRA's tactics before.
    Last edited by peter nap; 03-25-2012 at 04:57 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob1 View Post
    I don't know what an EM is but I'd suspect the OP was referring to the Executive Directors or the BoD as I guess they are known by...you know, Fenter, Jackson, O'Conner, etc.
    --snip--
    EM = Executive Member of VCDL. Executive members have voting privileges on matters requiring such a vote.

    The Directors (BoD) are EMs that have been selected to lead VCDL and to collectively make day to day decisions.
    There are 7 members of the BoD - those plus the Treasurer compromise "leadership".

    There is no "Executive Director" designation.

    Philip Van Cleave is our president and the only person authorized to speak for VCDL.

    Hope this helps.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    I have about had it with the Negotiate Rights Away behemouth.

    Next time the NRA Bozos screw with gun rights in Virginia, I will start an open carry picket in front of NRA headquarters. Hand out SAF and VGOF pamphlets as well.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Have you EVER seen the NRA print a letter that is even vaguely critical of their position?
    Well put.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    The NRA is going out on a limb on this one


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    I've pretty much come to a similar conclusion. I'm an NRA certified instructor, as well as a member, but I'm going to let all that expire. I've become convinced that the NRA has become worse than irrelevant. And it is my opinion that the people working in the ILA are just not smart enough to deal with real legal issues. Or maybe they're just bureaucrats who, while smart enough, are not diligent enough, or not intellectually honest enough, or something. For whatever reason, they're worse than ineffective, they've demonstrated pretty conclusively that they are a threat to the citizens' right of personal defense. I'm not going to be supporting them in the future, and I'm not going to any more "Friends" dinners.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Thumbs down NRA: Protecting your right to protect yourself......

    NRA Protecting your right to protect yourself
    They can claim this, as Wayne LaPierre joined VCDL.
    Imho, he did this so the NRA can claim they are protecting and are working to advance 2A rights here in VA, they just aren't going to be up front about who's really doing the work... Clue not NRA members.




    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Snip~ I've become convinced that the NRA has become worse than irrelevant. And it is my opinion that the people working in the ILA are just not smart enough to deal with real legal issues. Or maybe they're just bureaucrats who, while smart enough, are not diligent enough, or not intellectually honest enough, or something. For whatever reason, they're worse than ineffective, they've demonstrated pretty conclusively that they are a threat to the citizens' right of personal defense. I'm not going to be supporting them in the future, and I'm not going to any more "Friends" dinners.
    1+

    We also have NRA instructors here in VA that are dumb founded by 18.2-308 and 15.2-915, I debated one on VAGT and tried to educate another at the Fisherville GS.
    Last edited by Marco; 03-27-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    NRA: Protecting your right to protect yourself
    The only thing the NRA is interested in protecting is their revenue stream...

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  15. #15
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by hlh View Post
    Hey, I've got an idea... Why not change the NRA? It's been done before.
    When and by whom, please? Specify the membership cost and status prerequisite to NRA enfranchisement.

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    The NRA? <yawn> "What have you done for me lately?"

    All of the true, 2A activism (not merely "let's lobby legislators to make things easier for those who kiss the State's ring for a permit") I have seen in recent years has come from grassroots groups. The NRA is also closely-tied to the mainstream establishment of the Republican party, which is another group of people deserving of public scorn. Have you noticed all the "OBAMA IS GOING TO BAN GUNS IN 2ND TERM!!!" scare propaganda the NRA has put out recently in an attempt to help Mitt "Gun Grabbin' and Flip Floppin' Romney?
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hlh View Post
    It's not at all different than changing the Republican Party through elections.
    Yeah, because that's working so well...I mean, true conservatives like Mitt Romney, Chris Christie, and all the other neo-con stars pushed by Limbaugh, Hannity, and other longtime opinion-makers are so much different than what we've had for years...

    /sarcasm
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by hlh View Post
    I hear ya, so what's the solution?
    Idealistically: create alternative organizations and educate the public on why the original organization is no longer effective or relevant.

    Realistically: Stock up on God, guns, and groceries, wait for the system to collapse under its own weight, enjoy the fireworks, try not to get killed.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Does anyone besides the NRA offer any instructor certification?

    As much dissent as there is to the NRA, if they have no competitor in that area of the business, there would seem to be an opportunity.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Does anyone besides the NRA offer any instructor certification?

    As much dissent as there is to the NRA, if they have no competitor in that area of the business, there would seem to be an opportunity.

    TFred
    Why offer instructor certification? Most of the market for instructors is the result of unconstitutional requirements to get government-approved training to get a government permission slip to exercise the 2A.

    I see this as part of the problem: the NRA has a vested interest in the "mother may I?" system.

    There are plenty of businesses that offer training to citizens who desire to pay for it, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, offering certification to those who participate in an unconstitutional permit system is not something I want my 2A advocacy organization involved in.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

  21. #21
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Why offer instructor certification? Most of the market for instructors is the result of unconstitutional requirements to get government-approved training to get a government permission slip to exercise the 2A.

    I see this as part of the problem: the NRA has a vested interest in the "mother may I?" system.

    There are plenty of businesses that offer training to citizens who desire to pay for it, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, offering certification to those who participate in an unconstitutional permit system is not something I want my 2A advocacy organization involved in.
    Who said anything about permits?

    As long as there are guns, there will be the need for instruction in how to safely operate them. A certification of curriculum (a "label", if you will) is needed to ensure that the curriculum is adequate, consistent, and rigorous enough so that when you have completed some particular course of instruction, everyone will know exactly what that means.

    That is the point of my question. To the best of my knowledge, the NRA is the only organization who has developed a broad curriculum of gun related courses. If there is indeed nobody else doing that, it would take some effort, but it's not exactly rocket science either, to develop a competing curriculum. Why should the NRA have a monopoly? We have all seen what that means, the NRA is referenced throughout the Code of Virginia, and I would venture to guess many other states as well. This only reinforces their monopoly, and ensures that they will never be replaced as the "go to" organization for gun rights, in the perception of the general public.

    A competing curriculum would be the first step. Having states recognize it as equal to the NRA's curriculum would be a HUGE step. Can you even imagine the lobbying effort the NRA would throw up against an effort to have a state legislature recognize another source for gun safety instruction?

    Maybe you don't like the permit system, I don't really care. The fact is, that is where the NRA gains much of their credibility, through government endorsement of their "tried and true" curriculum. If you can't equal that with a competing curriculum, you would never get off the ground.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Maybe you don't like the permit system, I don't really care. The fact is, that is where the NRA gains much of their credibility, through government endorsement of their "tried and true" curriculum. If you can't equal that with a competing curriculum, you would never get off the ground.
    I disagree. Having a government endorsement gives it no credibility from people who understand the concepts of the constitutional role of government or individual rights protected by law. As for antis, they could care less and will blame "gun-crazy legislators."

    The point is that firearm instruction is not the province of government, and it is not necessary for a successful advocacy organization. It is a good endeavor for private, for-profit businesses to get involved in, but as I said, most of the market would go away if constitutional carry were enacted everywhere, which should be our ultimate goal.

    Why participate in the same permit system that you are trying to do away with? Seems like a conflict of interest, no?
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    I disagree. Having a government endorsement gives it no credibility from people who understand the concepts of the constitutional role of government or individual rights protected by law. As for antis, they could care less and will blame "gun-crazy legislators."

    The point is that firearm instruction is not the province of government, and it is not necessary for a successful advocacy organization. It is a good endeavor for private, for-profit businesses to get involved in, but as I said, most of the market would go away if constitutional carry were enacted everywhere, which should be our ultimate goal.

    Why participate in the same permit system that you are trying to do away with? Seems like a conflict of interest, no?
    The flaw in your thinking is that not enough of the general population that would be required for you to succeed think this way (the bold part in your quote). Sure, we do, but the general population, no.

    The fact remains that the government has endorsed the NRA curriculum. If you aren't willing to equal that, you will never have a chance to equal them, much less replace them in that role.

    If you can't understand the significance of that role, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I won't be investing in your new training company. And I'm not inclined to start one myself either.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 03-27-2012 at 02:54 PM. Reason: ETA: Slight reword.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Does anyone besides the NRA offer any instructor certification?

    As much dissent as there is to the NRA, if they have no competitor in that area of the business, there would seem to be an opportunity.

    TFred
    That is an extremely GOOD idea TFred!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

  25. #25
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    As long as there are guns, there will be the need for instruction in how to safely operate them. ... TFred
    Sure, as long as his premise is stipulated. I don't. The US went for a long time without gun control and without notable difficulties. That was at the heart of Bellesiles' lie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arming...al_Gun_Culture
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-27-2012 at 03:06 PM.

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