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Thread: Permanent rules proposal

  1. #1
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Permanent rules proposal

    So... the DOJ has proposed the permanent rules.

    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...rules-2012.pdf

    The biggest issue I see so far is that they want to limit class size to 50.

    We have until April 9th to give feedback.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    The biggest issue I see so far is that they want to limit class size to 50.
    We can name that the "WCI rule" .

    Something tells me that for-profit trainers/agency's have been rubbed the wrong way by the free training.

    Funny how hunters safety with a course that doesn't have much to do about self defense and carry laws, taken when you were a wee lad is OK but filling a room with more then 50 people and teaching nothing but self-defense and carry laws is bad.

    Looks like we will need to certify more instructors then . We usually have a bunch of members answering questions anyways.
    Last edited by Jason in WI; 03-26-2012 at 11:17 PM.

  3. #3
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    To me, the most significant area of these new proposed permanent Rules, has to do with the training course, and how it is to be conducted:

    Jus 17.03 Definitions.
    ...
    (7) “Firearms safety or training course” means a course of instructor-led training that provides a certificate or affidavit of successful completion satisfying the content requirements of s. Jus 17.05(2)(a) and that, at a minimum, instructs on, and practices the student’s comprehension of, firearm safety rules; safe firearm and ammunition use, handling, transport, and storage; legally permissible possession, transportation, and use of firearms, including use of deadly force; and techniques for avoiding and controlling violent confrontations.

    (8) “Instructor-led” means training that is conducted face-to-face individually or in groups with an instructor-student ratio that does not exceed 50 students per instructor and in which instructors actively guide students through each lesson, answer questions, facilitate discussion, and provide feedback on activities and/or assignments. Learner-led or self-directed learning—the delivery of learning experiences to independent learners who lead and manage their own experience, delivered via web pages, multimedia presentations, computer applications, online presentations, or similar methods—is not instructor-led.
    Take a close look at the changes in documentation of a training course that an applicant has taken:

    Jus 17.05 Training and documentation requirements.
    ...

    (2)(a) Except as otherwise provided in sub. (1), for purposes of satisfying the requirements of sub. (1)(b), (c), (d), (e), (f), or (g), a certificate or affidavit supplied by the instructor or organization providing a firearms safety or training course documenting that the applicant has successfully completed a firearms safety or training course must include all of the following information:

    1. The applicant’s name.
    2. The name of the firearms safety or training course.
    3. The date on which the applicant completed the firearms safety or training course.
    4. The name of the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant and the name of the agency or organization that certified the instructor.

    (b) In addition to a certificate or affidavit meeting the requirements of par. (a), the documentation of training submitted by an applicant must include evidence sufficient to establish that the course completed by the applicant met the minimal instructional requirements described in s. Jus. 17.03(7). Evidence sufficient to establish that the course satisfied the requirements of s. Jus. 17.03(7) shall include one of the following:

    1. A signed statement by the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant affirming that the course completed by the applicant was a firearms safety and training course as defined in s. Jus. 17.03(7);

    2. Information on the certificate or affidavit described in sub. (2)(a) indicating that the firearms safety and training course included instruction required by s. Jus. 17.03(7); or

    3. A signed statement by the applicant as part of the application affirming that the applicant successfully completed a firearms safety or training course and describing the scope and contents of that course in a manner sufficient to determine whether the course included instruction required by s. Jus. 17.03(7).
    Note that there are now 3 ways to document the content of the training course: (1) signed instructor statement, (2) certificate or affidavit, (3) signed applicant statement. So now, an applicant is not dependent on gettting a certificate or affidavit from an instructor for a previously taken course.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 03-28-2012 at 04:42 AM.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

  4. #4
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    A local cop is charging $100 per capita for the DoJ material.

    Friday I had a gun-nut inform me that I could not carry in a grocery store for it being within 1000 feet of a preschool. The town hall is well posted, with the tackiest possible no-guns signs, despite sharing the school campus. The garbage dump is not posted.

    I am sure the cop is emphasizing the prohibitions and not even mentioning the legal possibilities. I asked if I could sit in and was told no, that he is "charging for his time," and not for the certification.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    A local cop is charging $100 per capita for the DoJ material.

    Friday I had a gun-nut inform me that I could not carry in a grocery store for it being within 1000 feet of a preschool. The town hall is well posted, with the tackiest possible no-guns signs, despite sharing the school campus. The garbage dump is not posted.

    I am sure the cop is emphasizing the prohibitions and not even mentioning the legal possibilities. I asked if I could sit in and was told no, that he is "charging for his time," and not for the certification.
    Yes, because one extra person is going to over-exert him. Sounds like a Grade A Tool.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  6. #6
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    So... the DOJ has proposed the permanent rules.

    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...rules-2012.pdf

    The biggest issue I see so far is that they want to limit class size to 50.

    We have until April 9th to give feedback.
    They extended the comment period to May 4th.

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