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Thread: Sadly, it's official... VaTech...

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    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Sadly, it's official... VaTech...

    ...has become a criminal free-action zone.

    http://www.wdbj7.com/news/wdbj7-virg...,4274807.story

    BLACKSBURG; Va. — A heated gun debate is now settled at Virginia Tech. The University has passed a regulation restricting weapons of any kind in campus buildings and at campus events.
    Last edited by mk4; 03-26-2012 at 11:55 PM.
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    What a relief!

    Campus is safe again. I'll let the tooth Fairy know.


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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Let's hope that this is just the beginning of the end. Let the litigation commence.

    TFred

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Does this mean pocket knifes?

    ...has become a criminal free-action zone
    Wow so safe now. Watch out for pencil stabbing, fist fighting people.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I wish I had standing to sue Tech for depriving me of my rights, and offering nothing to defend my in their stead.

    I'd seriously love for my name to be among the plaintiffs in litigation against the school.

    Their warning system is a joke, btw. "Secure in place"? That worked out oh-so-well last time, didn't it?
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-27-2012 at 02:05 AM.

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    It shouldn't be effective yet. It won't become effective until after it is published. That could be a few months.

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    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    isn't publishing it just a formality without public comment possible? as i recall, uva got their regulation published to vac without a public hearing, correct?
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk4 View Post
    isn't publishing it just a formality without public comment possible? as i recall, uva got their regulation published to vac without a public hearing, correct?
    Yep!
    Done deal.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity, what's the difference between being in violation of school policy and the VAC?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what's the difference between being in violation of school policy and the VAC?
    School policy is only for staff and students and can only get you fired or kicked out.
    Violation of the VAC is a criminal charge.

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    Why not just post it a murder free zone? Or better yet a "no bad things ever happen here zone"?

    Same effect.

    What is with people believing that laws stop criminals?

    WHY IS THIS SO HARD? CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS!

    You would think people at a college would be smarter.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric in Richmond View Post
    Why not just post it a murder free zone? Or better yet a "no bad things ever happen here zone"?

    Same effect.

    What is with people believing that laws stop criminals?

    WHY IS THIS SO HARD? CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS!

    You would think people at a college would be smarter.
    Not quite. High school students are the second dumbest people because they think they know everything. College students are the dumbest because they KNOW they know everything.


    Yes I was once a college student, but I waited until I was well into adulthood before attending. And yes, I could definitely tell the difference between myself and some of the younger students.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 03-27-2012 at 07:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    School policy is only for staff and students and can only get you fired or kicked out.
    Violation of the VAC is a criminal charge.
    Not quite. IIRC (someone like user can correct me if they need to), only the GA can create criminal charges, and all criminal charges have to be in the Code of Virginia. State agencies (including universities) do not have that power, and the VAC does not contain criminal charges. It contains rules for state agencies, but the violation of those rules would lead to civil penalties, not criminal ones.

    Of course, violating a VAC rule against possession of a firearm in a university building could lead to criminal charges of trespass against you, but that isn't the same thing as saying that violation of the VAC is, in and of itself, a criminal charge.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric in Richmond View Post
    Why not just post it a murder free zone? Or better yet a "no bad things ever happen here zone"?

    Same effect.

    What is with people believing that laws stop criminals?

    WHY IS THIS SO HARD? CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS!

    You would think people at a college would be smarter.
    Perhaps Ric....that's natures way of cleaning up the gene pool. People who are not smart enough to know the difference between a "Criminal" and an honest person who deliberately breaks a law that is unjust or can get them killed, are only passing on M Genes!

    Think about it. If you were at a stop light that caused you to be across a train track...and a train was coming, would you run the light?

    Nuff said!

    And no Ed, I didn't break a board rule, I just asked a question.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Not quite. IIRC (someone like user can correct me if they need to), only the GA can create criminal charges, and all criminal charges have to be in the Code of Virginia. State agencies (including universities) do not have that power, and the VAC does not contain criminal charges. It contains rules for state agencies, but the violation of those rules would lead to civil penalties, not criminal ones.

    Of course, violating a VAC rule against possession of a firearm in a university building could lead to criminal charges of trespass against you, but that isn't the same thing as saying that violation of the VAC is, in and of itself, a criminal charge.
    I'll let User answer that because I don't have a cite, but my understanding is that violating a VAC provision was a Class 1 Misdemeanor.

    Don't take this a cite because it may not cover the entire VAC..:

    13VAC5-63-150. Section 115 Violations.

    A. Section 115.1 Violation a misdemeanor; civil penalty. In accordance with § 36-106 of the Code of Virginia, it shall be unlawful for any owner or any other person, firm or corporation, on or after the effective date of any code provisions, to violate any such provisions. Any locality may adopt an ordinance that establishes a uniform schedule of civil penalties for violations of specified provisions of the code that are not abated or remedied promptly after receipt of a notice of violation from the local enforcement officer.

    Note: See the full text of § 36-106 of the Code of Virginia for additional requirements and criteria pertaining to legal action relative to violations of the code.
    Another reference to criminal violation of the VAC, this time ABC violations:

    VAC - These rules are primarily enforced by Virginia ABC special agents and are targeted at ABC licensees. The violation of these rules can be punishable by fines, probation or revocation of the ABC license. These codes represent the agency regulations that apply to the ABC Act in the Code of Virginia. 3 VAC-5-10-10 is the beginning of the ABC portion. (Administrative penalties)
    Last edited by peter nap; 03-27-2012 at 09:00 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Not quite. High school students are the second dumbest people because they think they know everything. College students are the dumbest because they KNOW they know everything.
    Just the other day I pointed out that Montgomery and Radford Counties went to Ron Paul in the Republican Primary, while Giles County (where I live, and right next door) went handily to Romney.

    Frankly, I think this speaks volumes. And within those volumes is the fact that you're wrong.

    Folks set in their ways after decades on mindless partisanship are just as capable of overestimating their own understanding.

    You'l note that it's the administration, i.e. a bunch of former college students, who enacting the regulation referred to in the post to which you're responding.

    As it happens, I'm beginning to think that mindlessly giving college kids the bad rap they haven't really earned is part and parcel of the process which ensures that Obomney is reelected time and time and time again.

    Better stifle independent thought before it takes root!
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-27-2012 at 11:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'll let User answer that because I don't have a cite, but my understanding is that violating a VAC provision was a Class 1 Misdemeanor.

    Don't take this a cite because it may not cover the entire VAC..:
    By what I see there, the VAC itself doesn't create the criminal charge, but 36-106 does. (Hence its saying "In accordance with § 36-106 of the Code of Virginia".) That would only apply to the specific charge (violating the building code) in 36-106.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Another reference to criminal violation of the VAC, this time ABC violations:
    I don't see anything in there indicating any criminal penalties. In fact, everything listed at your link is stated as a civil penalty. (The probation mentioned appears to be a probationary period for the license.)

    A civil penalty is very different from a criminal one. Criminal charges carry the potential for jail time. Civil penalties do not.

    EDIT: In fact, the page you seem to have quoted from specifically differentiates between the COV (Code of Virginia), which includes criminal sanctions, and the VAC.
    COV - Virginia ABC special agents, state police and local law enforcement enforce these laws. The violation of these laws is punishable as a criminal act with fines and/or jail time. 4.1-100 is the beginning section of the ABC Act of the Code of Virginia.
    Last edited by grylnsmn; 03-27-2012 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Added a little more
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    So in essence. . .just like Cho chained the doors to the buildings to keep his victims contained and make the environment more conducive to his murder spree, so too has VT administration symbolically chained the entire campus to provide an easier environment for murderers, rapists and robbers to operate.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    By what I see there, the VAC itself doesn't create the criminal charge, but 36-106 does. (Hence its saying "In accordance with § 36-106 of the Code of Virginia".) That would only apply to the specific charge (violating the building code) in 36-106.

    I don't see anything in there indicating any criminal penalties. In fact, everything listed at your link is stated as a civil penalty. (The probation mentioned appears to be a probationary period for the license.)

    A civil penalty is very different from a criminal one. Criminal charges carry the potential for jail time. Civil penalties do not.

    EDIT: In fact, the page you seem to have quoted from specifically differentiates between the COV (Code of Virginia), which includes criminal sanctions, and the VAC.
    Glad to hear it. You can test it for us now
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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    School policy is only for staff and students and can only get you fired or kicked out.
    Violation of the VAC is a criminal charge.
    VAC? VA code? How do you know if a college is under VAC? I only seen School policy's like ODU etc.. how can you tell if VAC is enforced?
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Glad to hear it. You can test it for us now
    Like I said earlier, I'll wait for User!
    Strictly speaking, I was the first one to mention user in this thread. As I said, he is more than welcome to correct me if needed.

    It's an important distinction. Civil penalties are nothing to ignore, but there is a difference between a civil penalty and a criminal one. Criminal penalties are usually more severe.

    From what I've seen of the various university regulations regarding carry, there are no provisions for punishment if they are violated. However, the question then becomes whether or not other laws would also make it a crime.

    For example, 18.2-308 indicates that a concealed handgun permit does not permit a person to carry where otherwise prohibited by law (which, per Cuccinelli's July 2011 opinion, would include regulations in the VAC). Therefore, a person who violated the regulation while carrying concealed, even with a permit, could be charged with a violation of 18.2-308 because the permit is not valid where the VAC prohibits carry.

    Similarly, a person who is OCing contrary to the regulation would still have to leave if requested or they could face charges for trespass under 18.2-119.

    In both cases, the violation of the VAC itself is not a crime, but other actions related to that violation (concealing the firearm contrary to 18.2-308 or refusing to leave contrary to 18.2-119) could be charged as crimes.
    Last edited by grylnsmn; 03-27-2012 at 03:11 PM.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

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    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    VAC? VA code? How do you know if a college is under VAC? I only seen School policy's like ODU etc.. how can you tell if VAC is enforced?
    vac = va administrative code.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+men+SRR
    i'm not seeing anything published yet, but i don't know how often that occurs.

    eta: grylnsmn post below links a more comprehensive vac site: http://lis.virginia.gov/000/reg/TOC.HTM
    Last edited by mk4; 03-27-2012 at 03:31 PM.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Strictly speaking, I was the first one to mention user in this thread. As I said, he is more than welcome to correct me if needed.

    It's an important distinction. Civil penalties are nothing to ignore, but there is a difference between a civil penalty and a criminal one. Criminal penalties are usually more severe.

    From what I've seen of the various university regulations regarding carry, there are no provisions for punishment if they are violated. However, the question then becomes whether or not other laws would also make it a crime.

    For example, 18.2-308 indicates that a concealed handgun permit does not permit a person to carry where otherwise prohibited by law (which, per Cuccinelli's July 2011 opinion, would include regulations in the VAC). Therefore, a person who violated the regulation while carrying concealed, even with a permit, could be charged with a violation of 18.2-308 because the permit is not valid where the VAC prohibits carry.

    Similarly, a person who is OCing contrary to the regulation would still have to leave if requested or they could face charges for trespass under 18.2-119.

    In both cases, the violation of the VAC itself is not a crime, but other actions related to that violation (concealing the firearm contrary to 18.2-308 or refusing to leave contrary to 18.2-119) could be charged as crimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    VAC? VA code? How do you know if a college is under VAC? I only seen School policy's like ODU etc.. how can you tell if VAC is enforced?
    VAC is the Virginia Administrative Code. It basically consists of all of the administrative rules for State agencies.

    It is in contrast to the Code of Virginia (COV), which consists of all of the statutes passed by the GA and signed into law by the Governor.

    Every regulation in the VAC requires statutory authority from the COV to be valid. Each regulation will have a section specifying its statutory authority. For example, this regulation at Longwood University regarding automobile registration cites this statute, granting general authority to the school's Board, as its authority for passing that regulation.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

  25. #25
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    VAC is the Virginia Administrative Code. It basically consists of all of the administrative rules for State agencies.

    It is in contrast to the Code of Virginia (COV), which consists of all of the statutes passed by the GA and signed into law by the Governor.

    Every regulation in the VAC requires statutory authority from the COV to be valid. Each regulation will have a section specifying its statutory authority. For example, this regulation at Longwood University regarding automobile registration cites this statute, granting general authority to the school's Board, as its authority for passing that regulation.
    How do you know a college is under this VAC system? ODU etc..? Is there a quick look up?
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 03-27-2012 at 04:58 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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