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Sadly, it's official... VaTech...

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grylnsmn

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peter nap said:
Glad to hear it. You can test it for us now:lol:
Like I said earlier, I'll wait for User!
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Strictly speaking, I was the first one to mention user in this thread. :p As I said, he is more than welcome to correct me if needed.

It's an important distinction. Civil penalties are nothing to ignore, but there is a difference between a civil penalty and a criminal one. Criminal penalties are usually more severe.

From what I've seen of the various university regulations regarding carry, there are no provisions for punishment if they are violated. However, the question then becomes whether or not other laws would also make it a crime.

For example, 18.2-308 indicates that a concealed handgun permit does not permit a person to carry where otherwise prohibited by law (which, per Cuccinelli's July 2011 opinion, would include regulations in the VAC). Therefore, a person who violated the regulation while carrying concealed, even with a permit, could be charged with a violation of 18.2-308 because the permit is not valid where the VAC prohibits carry.

Similarly, a person who is OCing contrary to the regulation would still have to leave if requested or they could face charges for trespass under 18.2-119.

In both cases, the violation of the VAC itself is not a crime, but other actions related to that violation (concealing the firearm contrary to 18.2-308 or refusing to leave contrary to 18.2-119) could be charged as crimes.
 
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mk4

mk4

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peter nap

peter nap

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grylnsmn said:
Strictly speaking, I was the first one to mention user in this thread. :p As I said, he is more than welcome to correct me if needed.

It's an important distinction. Civil penalties are nothing to ignore, but there is a difference between a civil penalty and a criminal one. Criminal penalties are usually more severe.

From what I've seen of the various university regulations regarding carry, there are no provisions for punishment if they are violated. However, the question then becomes whether or not other laws would also make it a crime.

For example, 18.2-308 indicates that a concealed handgun permit does not permit a person to carry where otherwise prohibited by law (which, per Cuccinelli's July 2011 opinion, would include regulations in the VAC). Therefore, a person who violated the regulation while carrying concealed, even with a permit, could be charged with a violation of 18.2-308 because the permit is not valid where the VAC prohibits carry.

Similarly, a person who is OCing contrary to the regulation would still have to leave if requested or they could face charges for trespass under 18.2-119.

In both cases, the violation of the VAC itself is not a crime, but other actions related to that violation (concealing the firearm contrary to 18.2-308 or refusing to leave contrary to 18.2-119) could be charged as crimes.
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Do you do infomercials as a sideline?
 
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grylnsmn

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ocholsteroc said:
VAC? VA code? How do you know if a college is under VAC? I only seen School policy's like ODU etc.. how can you tell if VAC is enforced?
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VAC is the Virginia Administrative Code. It basically consists of all of the administrative rules for State agencies.

It is in contrast to the Code of Virginia (COV), which consists of all of the statutes passed by the GA and signed into law by the Governor.

Every regulation in the VAC requires statutory authority from the COV to be valid. Each regulation will have a section specifying its statutory authority. For example, this regulation at Longwood University regarding automobile registration cites this statute, granting general authority to the school's Board, as its authority for passing that regulation.
 
ocholsteroc

ocholsteroc

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grylnsmn said:
VAC is the Virginia Administrative Code. It basically consists of all of the administrative rules for State agencies.

It is in contrast to the Code of Virginia (COV), which consists of all of the statutes passed by the GA and signed into law by the Governor.

Every regulation in the VAC requires statutory authority from the COV to be valid. Each regulation will have a section specifying its statutory authority. For example, this regulation at Longwood University regarding automobile registration cites this statute, granting general authority to the school's Board, as its authority for passing that regulation.
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How do you know a college is under this VAC system? ODU etc..? Is there a quick look up?
 
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TFred

TFred

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grylnsmn said:
For example, 18.2-308 indicates that a concealed handgun permit does not permit a person to carry where otherwise prohibited by law (which, per Cuccinelli's July 2011 opinion, would include regulations in the VAC). Therefore, a person who violated the regulation while carrying concealed, even with a permit, could be charged with a violation of 18.2-308 because the permit is not valid where the VAC prohibits carry.
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I don't believe that at all. 18.2-308 simply states this:

"O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property."

It means that having a CHP does not override the wishes of a private property owner, or allow you to carry where otherwise prohibited by law. That paragraph has nothing at all to do with actually violating the provisions of 18.2-308 regarding the concealment of the gun.

TFred
 
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jmelvin

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ocholsteroc said:
How do you know a college is under this VAC system? ODU etc..? Is there a quick look up?
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Look at the link for the VAC. Look at the listings of applicable Titles and you can probably figure out which one has the regulations for colleges and universities. It could be gambling (especially since the schools like to gamble with student's lives), it could be agriculture (because these administrators are as dumb as cattle), it could be social services (since these colleges would like to turn over the society for the protection of criminals), but it's most likely under Education.
 
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Mayhem

Mayhem

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I think this is great news!! Now someone please tell ALL THE CRIMINALS so they will follow this rule too!!

I could swallow this if students were brining in weapons, with no intent to harm others, and students were getting hurt on a consistent basis. But this is not the case. It is the "feel good" policy that "somehow the students will be safe." Not only that... "Please do not sue us" since we did have a policy in place and the mass murderer did not follow it.
 
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jmelvin

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I have been advancing the arguments of the preciousness of human life and the concept that where human life is present, that possessor of that life has a right to life and a right to protect that life over on the Lynchburg News and Advance newspaper's Facebook page. Some over there have argued that it is acceptable for tens of thousands to be rendered defenseless and subject to death at the hands of a criminal in order to ensure that no person who would carry arms for personal protection can injure another innocent party. I suggest that those who wrecklessly harm another who does not need harming should be held accountable for their actions. Thus we have criminal penalties for those who injure or kill another with intent or with no intent.
 
skidmark

skidmark

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Breaking News - Va Tech misuses Va Administrative Code to ban concealed carry

Virginia Tech BOV acts to ban conceal carry weapons from campus buildings, major events

By Tonia Moxley | The Roanoke Times
The Virginia Tech Board of Visitors took action today to solidify a ban of conceal carry weapons from campus buildings and from major events.

The board, according to a ruling from the state Attorney General's office, was required to adopt a state regulation in order to ban legal conceal carry weapons. A simple existing university policy was not sufficient, according the attorney general's opinion.

The board today unanimously passed the resolution establishing the regulation - which pertains to all weapons.
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Why the VAC allows colleges/universities to enact VAC without a public comment period still baffles me.

Yes, we know they were going to do it no matter what was said. But at least we should have had an opportunity to state "for the record" why we object.

Perhaps an agenda item for next year's legislative session? Or am I just whistling in the wind?

stay safe.

Never mind - my breaking news source is just a day late and a dollar short. Story of my life!
 
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Mayhem

Mayhem

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It all comes down to the fact that some people would have us completely remove an item from society because they have no real need for it. They can live without it and therefore.. so should everyone else.

So in this case... guns!

They think that EVERYONE would give them up and we would all be safe. This makes no more sense than criminals following laws that prohibit murder, rape, or robbery.

We all know that criminals would have even greater power over a completely unarmed society. Just like they will at gun free school zones.
 
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jmelvin

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In the comment section I mentioned above one young lass, who has a terrible time trying to string a coherent thought together made it clear that she neither trusts the public, nor her fellow soldier (she says US Army) to behave competently with a firearm in defense of themselves or their fellow classmates. Further she promotes the idea that it is acceptable to limit one's right to life because there are some who act irresponsibly. Thus the protections provided by the US Constitution that she claims to have sworn to uphold are meaningless, because the legal system is not adequte to deal with irresponsible behavior fo some and all must be subject to criminal behavior.
 
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MamabearCali

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How very sad another free fire zone in VA. The first ban worked so well they went for a slightly more mean sounding ban....that will stop the criminals. :banghead: Another place I can't visit for fear of being killed by a madman.
 
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grylnsmn

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TFred said:
I don't believe that at all. 18.2-308 simply states this:

"O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property."

It means that having a CHP does not override the wishes of a private property owner, or allow you to carry where otherwise prohibited by law. That paragraph has nothing at all to do with actually violating the provisions of 18.2-308 regarding the concealment of the gun.

TFred
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Except it does.

18.2-308(A) makes the act of concealing a handgun on or about your person a crime. 18.2-308(B) and (C) then lay out exceptions to the prohibition listed in 18.2-308(A), of which a CHP is not one. Permits are not brought up until 18.2-308(D), at which point it never exempts permit holders from the prohibition in (A). Instead, a CHP can act as an affirmative defense to the charge of concealing a handgun.

However, as 18.2-308(O) states, it doesn't authorize you to carry where it is otherwise prohibited by law (which Cuccinelli's opinion stated includes the VAC). As such, if you carry concealed, even with a CHP, in a place where it is prohibited by law (even under the VAC), you could potentially be charged with a violation of 18.2-308(A), because your permit would not authorize carry where the VAC prohibited it. Without the authorization to carry concealed (and assuming one of the exemptions listed in 18.2-308(B) or (C) doesn't apply), carrying concealed would be a violation of 18.2-308(A), and could lead to criminal charges.
 
TFred

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O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

grylnsmn said:
Except it does.

18.2-308(A) makes the act of concealing a handgun on or about your person a crime. 18.2-308(B) and (C) then lay out exceptions to the prohibition listed in 18.2-308(A), of which a CHP is not one. Permits are not brought up until 18.2-308(D), at which point it never exempts permit holders from the prohibition in (A). Instead, a CHP can act as an affirmative defense to the charge of concealing a handgun.

However, as 18.2-308(O) states, it doesn't authorize you to carry where it is otherwise prohibited by law (which Cuccinelli's opinion stated includes the VAC). As such, if you carry concealed, even with a CHP, in a place where it is prohibited by law (even under the VAC), you could potentially be charged with a violation of 18.2-308(A), because your permit would not authorize carry where the VAC prohibited it. Without the authorization to carry concealed (and assuming one of the exemptions listed in 18.2-308(B) or (C) doesn't apply), carrying concealed would be a violation of 18.2-308(A), and could lead to criminal charges.
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I just don't think that is what it means, even though your winding logical path might seem to get there (at least for the unlawful places, not for the private property places, since it is generally not unlawful to "carry a gun" on such property, but rather a "trespass" to be there while doing so).

In reading the plain English, I think it simply means that having a CHP does not release you from these two conditions that would prohibit anyone else from carrying a gun.

I sincerely doubt there are any court cases that confirm your interpretation, and I would suggest that a lack of them would confirm mine. :p

If you can find one, I'll happily concede that you are right. ;)

TFred
 
marshaul

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So, is there really no motivation to use the rather impressive influence of the VCDL to do something about this issue?

I hate to be the harbinger of doom, but I would really hate to see this regulation get someone killed. Which I am afraid is exactly what's going to happen. The prior policy ought to have been on the top of our list, now it's just gotten absurd.

This is Virginia, folks. Not California.

I dunno, I used to think, no way it is likely to happen twice on the same campus. But, after spending a couple semesters at Tech, and experiencing the total lack of effort to actually prevent a future such occurrence, I'm getting more and more afraid that some copycat is going to do just that, feeling some kind of freakish connection or something like that, going to the same school and all.

But God forbid we can't buy more than one handgun per month. After all, I really need to buy two handguns each month in order to adequately defend myself. :rolleyes: (Not defending the one handgun per month rule, just questioning the priorities in VA of late. We're talking about lives here, not collections of toys. Or we should be.)
 
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ocholsteroc

ocholsteroc

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marshaul said:
So, is there really no motivation to use the rather impressive influence of the VCDL to do something about this issue?

I hate to be the harbinger of doom, but I would really hate to see this regulation get someone killed. Which I am afraid is exactly what's going to happen. The prior policy ought to have been on the top of our list, now it's just gotten absurd.

This is Virginia, folks. Not California.

I dunno, I used to think, no way it is likely to happen twice on the same campus. But, after spending a couple semesters at Tech, and experiencing the total lack of effort to actually prevent a future such occurrence, I'm getting more and more afraid that some copycat is going to do just that, feeling some kind of freakish connection or something like that, going to the same school and all.

But God forbid we can't buy more than one handgun per month. After all, I really need to buy two handguns each month in order to adequately defend myself. :rolleyes: (Not defending the one handgun per month rule, just questioning the priorities in VA of late. We're talking about lives here, not collections of toys. Or we should be.)
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I have switched to 100% online classes now, I boycott going to campus unless I have to pick up something. Which is like once so far.
 
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