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Thread: Handling police encounters in KY

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Handling police encounters in KY

    I just wanted to refresh my memory on how best to deal with a police encounter in Kentucky. I haven't had one yet. Here's what I know so far.

    If approached by LEO, ask "Am I being detained, or am I free to go." over and over again until the question is answered. If they refuse to answer and begin asking other unrelated questions, repeat "Am I being detained, or am I free to go." If being detained, say "I do not consent to any searches" and remain silent after that. If they state "free to go", go about your business and leave the scene.

    If asked to identify, give name and address only (or not? say nothing and remain silent?). I'm puzzled on this one. If asked for ID, I can simply state my name and address, or say nothing, and give no ID, since I am not driving a vehicle, nor concealing my weapon.

    A thread like this should remain sticky, as handling encounters is a common question and can be confusing when it actually happens.

    Added "Kentucky Officer/LEO Open Carry encounter flowchart". Please review and comment.
    Last edited by Statesman; 04-02-2012 at 03:31 PM.

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    They can approach you and begin a conversation, but you do not have to acknowledge them if you so wish. If someone called on you and you do not appear to be doing anything illegal, they can not detain you. You can ask if your being detained, and if they say no, walk off. If they say yes, tell them you wish to know why, that you will remain silent, and would like a lawyer. You can ask what statute you have violated, which you would know you haven't violated one, but I wouldn't say much more. If it ever came to this point, you could take them to court after the fact. I know of a supreme court ruling that stated you could resist unlawful arrest, however I can not recall the case, and I would not resist. You have no obligation to show I.D., or identify yourself. The only time you must produce your drivers license is when you are driving.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 03-27-2012 at 11:35 PM.

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    Regular Member rob31567's Avatar
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    Im glad someone finally asked this, because I was at the Cannonsburg Walmart purchasing ammo. I have just started to OC and thats one place that I actually feel comfortable doing so. Theres a few employees that I know and they have said that their store is pretty much open to the OCing issues. I was OCing the other day and I had a short dumpy guy asking me all kinds of questions about why I was carrying. After about a half an hour trying my best to ignore him, he finally told me that he was an off duty sheriff for boyd county. But just by reading some of the post on here has made me aware of what rights I have. After this guy left, the employee I know said that this guy was a sheriff and he sometimes does that to other people that OC's there. He told me not to worry about it too much because they have alot of Ashland police shop there while carrying. To make a long story short, the silent treatment does work, it aggravates them, but having someone that I do not know firing 500 questions at me does too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob31567 View Post
    Im glad someone finally asked this, because I was at the Cannonsburg Walmart purchasing ammo. I have just started to OC and thats one place that I actually feel comfortable doing so. Theres a few employees that I know and they have said that their store is pretty much open to the OCing issues. I was OCing the other day and I had a short dumpy guy asking me all kinds of questions about why I was carrying. After about a half an hour trying my best to ignore him, he finally told me that he was an off duty sheriff for boyd county. But just by reading some of the post on here has made me aware of what rights I have. After this guy left, the employee I know said that this guy was a sheriff and he sometimes does that to other people that OC's there. He told me not to worry about it too much because they have alot of Ashland police shop there while carrying. To make a long story short, the silent treatment does work, it aggravates them, but having someone that I do not know firing 500 questions at me does too.
    You catch his name? Was he an old gray haired guy with glasses? Go to the sherrif's department and file a complaint for being harassed by an off duty deputy who was using his authority to try and prove a point. Do not allow people to treat you like this. Next time tell them because it's your right as a FREE Kentuckian.

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    BTW, you should come to our next OC meet up at golden corral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    You catch his name? Was he an old gray haired guy with glasses? Go to the sherrif's department and file a complaint for being harassed by an off duty deputy who was using his authority to try and prove a point. Do not allow people to treat you like this. Next time tell them because it's your right as a FREE Kentuckian.

    He was a younger guy, maybe mid thirties, dirty blonde hair, bout 240lbs. Biggest thing that got me was there was no badge present, he was carrying though. Didnt catch his name, I never indulged myself to ask, figure if he was on the up and up he would have identified himself and showed me a badge. Anybody can say that there law enforcement, I just kinda stood there and smiled the whole time he was talking. The walmart employee would talk to me and then this guy would repeat his question expecting me to answer, it was interesting. Ill check with my friend to see if I can get this guys name, kind of a headsup for you guys. As for the meet and greet, ill be there, im right up the road from there.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob31567 View Post
    Im glad someone finally asked this, because I was at the Cannonsburg Walmart purchasing ammo.
    Is this the Wal MArt that's off the Cannonsburg exit of 64, on the same raod as Border's?
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Is this the Wal MArt that's off the Cannonsburg exit of 64, on the same raod as Border's?
    Yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Is this the Wal MArt that's off the Cannonsburg exit of 64, on the same raod as Border's?
    Ran into a guy up there that was OCing, by chance was that you brother? lol Whoever it was brought out his phone and and cited the Rules per the Walmart corp. to a manager. Great job though.......

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    They can approach you and begin a conversation, but you do not have to acknowledge them if you so wish. If someone called on you and you do not appear to be doing anything illegal, they can not detain you. You can ask if your being detained, and if they say no, walk off. If they say yes, tell them you wish to know why, that you will remain silent, and would like a lawyer. You can ask what statute you have violated, which you would know you haven't violated one, but I wouldn't say much more. If it ever came to this point, you could take them to court after the fact. I know of a supreme court ruling that stated you could resist unlawful arrest, however I can not recall the case, and I would not resist. You have no obligation to show I.D., or identify yourself. The only time you must produce your drivers license is when you are driving.
    If the officer refuses to answer the question "Am I being detained, or am I free to go?", and I walk off, and he stops me, do I automatically assume I am being detained? Then I can ask what law I am in violation of that I am being detained for. Get the officers name and badge number, and file a complaint.

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    In my own personal experience its been better to take an equal stance with them vs a "mother may i" stance.

    But this also requires you be well versed in the law, can recite krs and case law by memory or at the least have a hardcopy.

    It throws them off to encounter a citizen as well versed (if not better) in the law.

    I would ask, "why are you illegally detaining me?" Now they will be compelled to answer if they are detaining you. If they say nothing walk off. If they stop you, ask what their RAS is. Remind them that detainment without RAS is a constitutional violation that they will be held responsible for in federal court. Throw the ol 42USC1983 at them. If they dont know what that is, explain it to them.

    Personally i wont and havent put up with that treatment. I am an American and this is not and never will be a police state. But im not afraid to be illegally arrested to prove my point in a court of law, so that may be the key difference in my position vs others.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    My stance is, if I am being detained and they want my ID, I will ask them to write me a citation for law I have broken and I will supply my ID. That usually stops it quick if they are just trying to push you around.

    Any illegal detention requires a complaint at the officers place of work...That is how you stop the problem.

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnfetteredMight View Post
    Remind them that detainment without RAS is a constitutional violation that they will be held responsible for in federal court. Throw the ol 42USC1983 at them. If they dont know what that is, explain it to them.
    I've been looking for this recently. Thanks! Why is detainment without RAS (Reasonable Articulable Suspicion) a constitutional violation?

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983

    42 USC § 1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights

    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob31567 View Post
    Ran into a guy up there that was OCing, by chance was that you brother? lol Whoever it was brought out his phone and and cited the Rules per the Walmart corp. to a manager. Great job though.......
    What did the walmart manager say?

    You have the right idea in how to deal with an Leo. Take unfettered's advice as well, however I doubt you will ever be detained by an Leo. Not that you will not be harassed, but most are smart enough, and realize detaining you for something that is not a violation of law is a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Statesman View Post
    I've been looking for this recently. Thanks! Why is detainment without RAS (Reasonable Articulable Suspicion) a constitutional violation?

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983

    42 USC § 1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights

    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the
    deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless
    a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

    Because without RAS, they have no right to stop you, and would be violating your 4th amendment rights, as well as protected rights under the Ky constitution. I suggest researching the difference between RAS and probable cause. Read krs chapters 237, 503, 527, 65.870, and some of 67 that has to do with malfeasance and such. 237, 503, and 527 are firearm statutes and self defense law. Read the opinion of the supreme court of Ky in the "holland v. Commonwealth" case. Memorize all of this, and be prepared to educate folks.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 03-28-2012 at 11:09 PM.

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    Regular Member rob31567's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    What did the walmart manager say?

    You have the right idea in how to deal with an Leo. Take unfettered's advice as well, however I doubt you will ever be detained by an Leo. Not that you will not be harassed, but most are smart enough, and realize detaining you for something that is not a violation of law is a mistake.
    She was well aware of Walmarts Policy on OCing. She even commented that these topics are brought up within manager meetings on a weekly basis. And my friend said that they have had only one incident where a manager said something to a person OCing due to a customer complained about it. The female manager said that that incident was promptly discussed in the next meeting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob31567 View Post
    She was well aware of Walmarts Policy on OCing. She even commented that these topics are brought up within manager meetings on a weekly basis. And my friend said that they have had only one incident where a manager said something to a person OCing due to a customer complained about it. The female manager said that that incident was promptly discussed in the next meeting.
    Well that is good news. I was in cannonsburg walmart one day and there were 5 other men and myself carrying. None of them post on this forum either, so word is getting out about the legality of OC. If you ever see someone OCing, inform them of this forum if you can, I always try to do so if I am not in a hurry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    I know of a supreme court ruling that stated you could resist unlawful arrest, however I can not recall the case, and I would not resist. You have no obligation to show I.D., or identify yourself. The only time you must produce your drivers license is when you are driving.
    That's good. Because resisting arrest NEVER works out well in the short term, and only occasionally comes out ok in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amaixner View Post
    That's good. Because resisting arrest NEVER works out well in the short term, and only occasionally comes out ok in the end.
    Right. You don't resist anything an officer does, period, with the exception of staying silent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob31567 View Post
    Im glad someone finally asked this, because I was at the Cannonsburg Walmart purchasing ammo. I have just started to OC and thats one place that I actually feel comfortable doing so. Theres a few employees that I know and they have said that their store is pretty much open to the OCing issues. I was OCing the other day and I had a short dumpy guy asking me all kinds of questions about why I was carrying. After about a half an hour trying my best to ignore him, he finally told me that he was an off duty sheriff for boyd county. But just by reading some of the post on here has made me aware of what rights I have. After this guy left, the employee I know said that this guy was a sheriff and he sometimes does that to other people that OC's there. He told me not to worry about it too much because they have alot of Ashland police shop there while carrying. To make a long story short, the silent treatment does work, it aggravates them, but having someone that I do not know firing 500 questions at me does too.
    "I'm sorry.... You're the Sheriff of Boyd County?
    Did you mean you're a Sheriff like Andy Taylor,"



    "...or did you mean a Deputy like Barney Fife?"
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-30-2012 at 10:10 AM.

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Can someone cite the court case that says open carry is not Disorderly Conduct, or inciting alarm, and is a legitimate purpose?

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    Regular Member rob31567's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    "I'm sorry.... You're the Sheriff of Boyd County?
    Did you mean you're a Sheriff like Andy Taylor,"



    "...or did you mean a Deputy like Barney Fife?"
    Sorry for the mis info, sheriffs deputy........Needless to say, really wasnt sure what to make him out to be, my theory, just smile alot..that leaves them confused.

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statesman View Post
    Can someone cite the court case that says open carry is not Disorderly Conduct, or inciting alarm, and is a legitimate purpose?
    Here is what I was looking for. Does this apply?

    Simmons v. United States, 390 U.S. 377 (1968)

    Summary: "The claim and exercise of a Constitution right cannot
    be converted into a crime."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Statesman View Post
    Can someone cite the court case that says open carry is not Disorderly Conduct, or inciting alarm, and is a legitimate purpose?
    Holland v. Commonwealth states, "No one may question our right to openly carry a firearm as long a it's worn outside the shirt for all to see." This helps, but most importantly the constitution is what makes open carry legal. These acts are not considered disorderly conduct because of these two reasons, but mainly because openly carrying a firearm is not even mentioned in disorderly conduct statutes. There is nothing in the first or second degree that could even be construed to apply to carrying a firearm. Inciting alarm or panic do not exist in Ky state statutes.

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Kentucky Officer/LEO Open Carry encounter flowchart

    I've come up with a draft version of a flowchart on how to handle police encounters in Kentucky, based on the comments and understanding I've received on these forums. Comments and suggestions appreciated.

    This flowchart is not legal advice, and I am not responsible for its use. Consult your own attorney before using this flowchart.
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