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Thread: The NRA, $$$, SB59 and why we should stop it.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The NRA, $$$, SB59 and why we should stop it.

    Q, You stated you helped write SB59 and I'm not calling you a liar, but it ******* WREAKS of being the NRAs idea. What we are talking here about here is, over time, MILLIONS of dollars going directly to the NRA from royalty fees from classes alone. Just like usual for the NRA, but this time with a freshly doubled market! It's really quite a devious plan. When you factor in the full cost, you are talking about taxing the people of Michigan tens of millions of dollars, and making them take an additional class, all for a constitutionally protected right! Please tell me you and a few law makers didn't come up with this yourselves!

    It's fairly simple math. There are, if I remember right, hundreds of thousands of CPL holders already in Michigan. Even if we pretend that the NRA wouldn't get a big payout from this, and additionally make an unrealistically conservative estimate, say 100,000 people paying 100 dollars each over time, never mind the range and ammo fees, does that represent anyone striving for liberty? What in the hell gives us, the under dog freedom fighters, the right to tell the people of Michigan that they should have to spend multi millions for a constitutionally protected right? If you further consider that the NRA is a dedicated enemy of ours, having consistently fought very hard to stop the spread of open carry, and to instead promote licensed through them CC, this is perhaps the greatest mistake MOC has ever made.


    If the NRA doesnt have it's dirty little mits in the mix here to push this through, that would shock the hell out of me because it stinks to high heaven of them attempting a power and money grab. If it passes, it will turn into just that regardless of who wrote it and why. No matter how much if any of it was their idea, I consider it an exceptional disgrace for MOC. I helped to found MOC to PREVENT this type of thing!

    For Gods sake, we need to try to pull the plug on this trash!
    Last edited by Michigander; 03-28-2012 at 05:33 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Question

    The Q stated that he had to lie to the Senators, I think there was a lot of that going on at this hearing.
    In an interview on the show off the record, senator Green talks about how this bill forces cc in pfz's etc.
    His overall tone was not too pro 2A. See
    http://www.wkar.org
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  3. #3
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Q, You stated you helped write SB59 and I'm not calling you a liar, but it ******* WREAKS of being the NRAs idea. What we are talking here about here is, over time, MILLIONS of dollars going directly to the NRA from royalty fees from classes alone. Just like usual for the NRA, but this time with a freshly doubled market! It's really quite a devious plan. When you factor in the full cost, you are talking about taxing the people of Michigan tens of millions of dollars, and making them take an additional class, all for a constitutionally protected right! Please tell me you and a few law makers didn't come up with this yourselves!

    It's fairly simple math. There are, if I remember right, hundreds of thousands of CPL holders already in Michigan. Even if we pretend that the NRA wouldn't get a big payout from this, and additionally make an unrealistically conservative estimate, say 100,000 people paying 100 dollars each over time, never mind the range and ammo fees, does that represent anyone striving for liberty? What in the hell gives us, the under dog freedom fighters, the right to tell the people of Michigan that they should have to spend multi millions for a constitutionally protected right? If you further consider that the NRA is a dedicated enemy of ours, having consistently fought very hard to stop the spread of open carry, and to instead promote licensed through them CC, this is perhaps the greatest mistake MOC has ever made.


    If the NRA doesnt have it's dirty little mits in the mix here to push this through, that would shock the hell out of me because it stinks to high heaven of them attempting a power and money grab. If it passes, it will turn into just that regardless of who wrote it and why. No matter how much if any of it was their idea, I consider it an exceptional disgrace for MOC. I helped to found MOC to PREVENT this type of thing!

    For Gods sake, we need to try to pull the plug on this trash!
    MOC was involved, but I'm not aware of any official NRA person having a hand in it. Certainly NRA members were involved as were some NRA certified instructors, but no official NRA representation in it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Q, You stated you helped write SB59 and I'm not calling you a liar, but it ******* WREAKS of being the NRAs idea. What we are talking here about here is, over time, MILLIONS of dollars going directly to the NRA from royalty fees from classes alone. Just like usual for the NRA, but this time with a freshly doubled market! It's really quite a devious plan. When you factor in the full cost, you are talking about taxing the people of Michigan tens of millions of dollars, and making them take an additional class, all for a constitutionally protected right! Please tell me you and a few law makers didn't come up with this yourselves!

    It's fairly simple math. There are, if I remember right, hundreds of thousands of CPL holders already in Michigan. Even if we pretend that the NRA wouldn't get a big payout from this, and additionally make an unrealistically conservative estimate, say 100,000 people paying 100 dollars each over time, never mind the range and ammo fees, does that represent anyone striving for liberty? What in the hell gives us, the under dog freedom fighters, the right to tell the people of Michigan that they should have to spend multi millions for a constitutionally protected right? If you further consider that the NRA is a dedicated enemy of ours, having consistently fought very hard to stop the spread of open carry, and to instead promote licensed through them CC, this is perhaps the greatest mistake MOC has ever made.


    If the NRA doesnt have it's dirty little mits in the mix here to push this through, that would shock the hell out of me because it stinks to high heaven of them attempting a power and money grab. If it passes, it will turn into just that regardless of who wrote it and why. No matter how much if any of it was their idea, I consider it an exceptional disgrace for MOC. I helped to found MOC to PREVENT this type of thing!

    For Gods sake, we need to try to pull the plug on this trash!
    And of course you are free to OC without a CPL in Michigan, I'm sure the same can be said for where you are now... While this law is not perfect, no law is, this will allow those who want to CC in PFZ to do so. No one is forcing them as they can still OC in those places with a CPL.

    In time as the general population realize that people carrying in PFZ is not a problem, we can work for OCing without a CPL anywhere, and in a vehicle, and maybe go for con-carry.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    Last edited by detroit_fan; 03-28-2012 at 12:06 PM.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  6. #6
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
    unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization

    Sorry but you failed.

    You tried to make a post and look all intelligent and act like a moderator and all you did is get egg on your face.

    -1 point

    Besides he wasn't bashing them, he's bashing SB59 which he has every right to do.

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    NRA had a fair amount of hands-on in helping our OC bill get rolled-up, lit on fire, and tossed into the toilet, here in Fla.
    In FAVOR of, some silly wording to our gun laws just to allow folks the option of buying a rifle in another State..
    When asked , wtf? they basically shrugged and said OC was NOT A PRIORITY for them right now..
    They no longer get any of my funds..

  8. #8
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization

    Sorry but you failed.

    You tried to make a post and look all intelligent and act like a moderator and all you did is get egg on your face.

    -1 point

    Besides he wasn't bashing them, he's bashing SB59 which he has every right to do.
    WTF are you talking about? How is posting a site rule trying to look intelligent? He went out of his way to bash them and called them "dedicated enemy of ours". And this bill has absolutely ZERO affect on OC in MI, so how is the NRA OC position related to this bill? Of course he can bash the bill, but i will ask, what bill does he have to take it's place that has a chance in hell at passing? Is he just attempting to kill this bill and leave us where we are now, with nothing better to replace it? At least Q is getting out there and trying to get something done, which is better than all of you that just bitch about bills and never provide anything better.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    NRA had a fair amount of hands-on in helping our OC bill get rolled-up, lit on fire, and tossed into the toilet, here in Fla.
    In FAVOR of, some silly wording to our gun laws just to allow folks the option of buying a rifle in another State..
    When asked , wtf? they basically shrugged and said OC was NOT A PRIORITY for them right now..
    They no longer get any of my funds..
    Fair enough, I didn't renew my NRA membership either and gave the money to the MOC legal fund to fight the CADL case. When the NRA called and asked why I didn't renew I told them it was because they need to be more supportive of OC and that because they were not helping with our CADL case that the money would be going to a state org that is helping. I'm not an NRA fanboy, they do LOTS of stuff I don't agree with, but i do respect the owners of this site and try to follow their posting rules.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    The NRA wasn't involved in the drafting of this bill.

    Maybe we should just stop doing lobbying because one person who doesn't even live in Michigan anymore, barely post and I doubt is involved in reading everything that is going on is complain that we aren't doing it right?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Here is Michigan open carry's philosophy on whether or not to support a bill: does the bill have a benefit for everyone that would leave them better off tomorrow than they were yesterday?

    For the record, it wasn't just Q's choice to support the bill. The MOC board voted unanimously to support it.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Maybe we should just stop doing lobbying because one person who doesn't even live in Michigan anymore, barely post and I doubt is involved in reading everything that is going on is complain that we aren't doing it right?
    Yeah, that's probably best.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    The NRA wasn't involved in the drafting of this bill.

    Maybe we should just stop doing lobbying because one person who doesn't even live in Michigan anymore, barely post and I doubt is involved in reading everything that is going on is complain that we aren't doing it right?
    Q - rather than attacking him, maybe you should find out more info on what he finds wrong with the bill? Glen wrote a rather comprehensive book on MI gun laws. Can you say the same? Carry on.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 03-28-2012 at 01:21 PM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Q - rather than attacking him, maybe you should find out more info on what he finds wrong with the bill? Glen wrote a rather comprohensive book on MI gun laws. Can you say the same? Carry on.
    It's obvious he doesn't like the training. Welcome to the club. It was a very hard sticking point in negotiations. I believe Mississippi recently passed a bill that does the same: eliminate PFZ for people who take more training.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    If you have time to whine and complain about something then you have the time to do something about it. -Anthony J. D’Angelo

    Those of you that oppose this bill, what have you done to improve the PFZ issue? What bill have you drafted? What lawmakers have you been working with to get it passed? What progress have you made?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Before this thread devolves into a pi$$ing match, let us remember we want the same things. Critical thoughts are not attacks, they are just that (thought) & if possible we should use them when we can for a better out come for all, right?
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    I too have distanced myself from the NRA. Thats the nicest way I know of to put it.

    Im with you Michigander, but I have supported this bill for two reasons. If we dont get it, I dont see the current legislature doing anything else of any real value for the rest of the term, and secondly, it will allow people to be armed where they otherwise wouldnt be "allowed" to exercise a "right".

    This is one step closer to constitutional carry.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Q - rather than attacking him, maybe you should find out more info on what he finds wrong with the bill? Glen wrote a rather comprehensive book on MI gun laws. Can you say the same? Carry on.
    I don't think it was an attack, I think it was a reply. The OP all but called him a liar, and basically called MOC a disgrace for supporting it.

    What does being an author have to do with any of this? Is someone more qualified to be a 2A supporter if they write a book?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Quote Originally Posted by glock9mmoldstyle View Post
    before this thread devolves into a pi$$ing match, let us remember we want the same things. Critical thoughts are not attacks, they are just that (thought) & if possible we should use them when we can for a better out come for all, right?
    Last edited by stainless1911; 03-28-2012 at 01:35 PM.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Before this thread devolves into a pi$$ing match, let us remember we want the same things. Critical thoughts are not attacks, they are just that (thought) & if possible we should use them when we can for a better out come for all, right?
    agreed, but people voicing critical thoughts should also offer solutions to those concerns.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    It's obvious he doesn't like the training. Welcome to the club. It was a very hard sticking point in negotiations. I believe Mississippi recently passed a bill that does the same: eliminate PFZ for people who take more training.
    When I met with my rep, I got the same type of response. The legislature wants people to have to qualify to use a right. Eileen told me that she wouild feel more comfortable with OC if we could prove some sort of training.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    When I met with my rep, I got the same type of response. The legislature wants people to have to qualify to use a right. Eileen told me that she wouild feel more comfortable with OC if we could prove some sort of training.
    I think we all agree that the training is bad and most if not all of us believe it should not be necessary to exercise a right. There are 3 reasons I support this bill even though it maintains the training requirement.

    1-elimination of gun boards. this is long overdue and they need to be abolished asap.

    2-it maintains the status quo, so if you don't want the extra training or costs you don't have to do it, and you retain your OC in PFZ with standard CPL option.

    3-it will show the public that carrying in PFZ's is not a big deal. it also will encourage MANY more people to carry in the PFZ's. a lot of people do not want to have to OC in some of these places because of the attention it causes, and the potential BS that may come from it. (guy who carried to school to vote lost his job over the bad PR).

    This bill gives us more options without eliminating any of our current options, and I think that is a good thing. jmo
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    I don't think it was an attack, I think it was a reply. The OP all but called him a liar, and basically called MOC a disgrace for supporting it.

    What does being an author have to do with any of this? Is someone more qualified to be a 2A supporter if they write a book?
    I think the OP has voiced legitimate concerns.He has a better understanding of our gun laws than most here. Do I suport this bill? Yes, but after the passage we should work on tweaking it. Thanks to Q & MOC as something is better than nothing & that's what we would of got from this legislature
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone here "loves" this legislation and yes, I feel it definitely has aspects which seem to me to be strong indicators that the NRA is involved. I also find it interesting that the class that is referenced to is still in the earliest stages of development. This means that if we wanted to take this class today, we couldn't as it doesn't exist.
    All of this notwithstanding, the realities of the legislative process is one of incrementalism and being able to negotiate for the future good of all. What I see is that this bill, if passed, will at least dispel the notion that non-LEOs have no need to carry in the PFZz. I think that after a few years of this nonsense we can change the law to further the idea that CPL holders are law-abiding citizens. At that point we will have eliminated some opposition to the whole notion that we need places where one may not carry a firearm. This is only a first step.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Agreed. I dont "love" this law either, but its a step in the right direction, partly for the reasons DF listed. And G9 is right, Michigander knows whats up. I see this bill as a happy medium between our, and the states interests. Things will have to be done incrementally.

    Personally, for my needs, I want to see OC/Transportation passed, but I will still actively support bills that promote gun rights, regardless of who those rights are going to be extended to.

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