The NRA, $$$, SB59 and why we should stop it.

Michigander · Mar 28, 2012

Q, You stated you helped write SB59 and I'm not calling you a liar, but it ******* WREAKS of being the NRAs idea. What we are talking here about here is, over time, MILLIONS of dollars going directly to the NRA from royalty fees from classes alone. Just like usual for the NRA, but this time with a freshly doubled market! It's really quite a devious plan. When you factor in the full cost, you are talking about taxing the people of Michigan tens of millions of dollars, and making them take an additional class, all for a constitutionally protected right! Please tell me you and a few law makers didn't come up with this yourselves!

It's fairly simple math. There are, if I remember right, hundreds of thousands of CPL holders already in Michigan. Even if we pretend that the NRA wouldn't get a big payout from this, and additionally make an unrealistically conservative estimate, say 100,000 people paying 100 dollars each over time, never mind the range and ammo fees, does that represent anyone striving for liberty? What in the hell gives us, the under dog freedom fighters, the right to tell the people of Michigan that they should have to spend multi millions for a constitutionally protected right? If you further consider that the NRA is a dedicated enemy of ours, having consistently fought very hard to stop the spread of open carry, and to instead promote licensed through them CC, this is perhaps the greatest mistake MOC has ever made.

If the NRA doesnt have it's dirty little mits in the mix here to push this through, that would shock the hell out of me because it stinks to high heaven of them attempting a power and money grab. If it passes, it will turn into just that regardless of who wrote it and why. No matter how much if any of it was their idea, I consider it an exceptional disgrace for MOC. I helped to found MOC to PREVENT this type of thing!

For Gods sake, we need to try to pull the plug on this trash!

Glock9mmOldStyle · Mar 28, 2012

The Q stated that he had to lie to the Senators, I think there was a lot of that going on at this hearing.
In an interview on the show off the record, senator Green talks about how this bill forces cc in pfz's etc.
His overall tone was not too pro 2A. See
http://www.wkar.org

Venator · Mar 28, 2012

Michigander said:
Q, You stated you helped write SB59 and I'm not calling you a liar, but it ******* WREAKS of being the NRAs idea. What we are talking here about here is, over time, MILLIONS of dollars going directly to the NRA from royalty fees from classes alone. Just like usual for the NRA, but this time with a freshly doubled market! It's really quite a devious plan. When you factor in the full cost, you are talking about taxing the people of Michigan tens of millions of dollars, and making them take an additional class, all for a constitutionally protected right! Please tell me you and a few law makers didn't come up with this yourselves!

It's fairly simple math. There are, if I remember right, hundreds of thousands of CPL holders already in Michigan. Even if we pretend that the NRA wouldn't get a big payout from this, and additionally make an unrealistically conservative estimate, say 100,000 people paying 100 dollars each over time, never mind the range and ammo fees, does that represent anyone striving for liberty? What in the hell gives us, the under dog freedom fighters, the right to tell the people of Michigan that they should have to spend multi millions for a constitutionally protected right? If you further consider that the NRA is a dedicated enemy of ours, having consistently fought very hard to stop the spread of open carry, and to instead promote licensed through them CC, this is perhaps the greatest mistake MOC has ever made.

If the NRA doesnt have it's dirty little mits in the mix here to push this through, that would shock the hell out of me because it stinks to high heaven of them attempting a power and money grab. If it passes, it will turn into just that regardless of who wrote it and why. No matter how much if any of it was their idea, I consider it an exceptional disgrace for MOC. I helped to found MOC to PREVENT this type of thing!

For Gods sake, we need to try to pull the plug on this trash!

MOC was involved, but I'm not aware of any official NRA person having a hand in it. Certainly NRA members were involved as were some NRA certified instructors, but no official NRA representation in it.

Venator · Mar 28, 2012

Michigander said:
Q, You stated you helped write SB59 and I'm not calling you a liar, but it ******* WREAKS of being the NRAs idea. What we are talking here about here is, over time, MILLIONS of dollars going directly to the NRA from royalty fees from classes alone. Just like usual for the NRA, but this time with a freshly doubled market! It's really quite a devious plan. When you factor in the full cost, you are talking about taxing the people of Michigan tens of millions of dollars, and making them take an additional class, all for a constitutionally protected right! Please tell me you and a few law makers didn't come up with this yourselves!

It's fairly simple math. There are, if I remember right, hundreds of thousands of CPL holders already in Michigan. Even if we pretend that the NRA wouldn't get a big payout from this, and additionally make an unrealistically conservative estimate, say 100,000 people paying 100 dollars each over time, never mind the range and ammo fees, does that represent anyone striving for liberty? What in the hell gives us, the under dog freedom fighters, the right to tell the people of Michigan that they should have to spend multi millions for a constitutionally protected right? If you further consider that the NRA is a dedicated enemy of ours, having consistently fought very hard to stop the spread of open carry, and to instead promote licensed through them CC, this is perhaps the greatest mistake MOC has ever made.

If the NRA doesnt have it's dirty little mits in the mix here to push this through, that would shock the hell out of me because it stinks to high heaven of them attempting a power and money grab. If it passes, it will turn into just that regardless of who wrote it and why. No matter how much if any of it was their idea, I consider it an exceptional disgrace for MOC. I helped to found MOC to PREVENT this type of thing!

For Gods sake, we need to try to pull the plug on this trash!

And of course you are free to OC without a CPL in Michigan, I'm sure the same can be said for where you are now... While this law is not perfect, no law is, this will allow those who want to CC in PFZ to do so. No one is forcing them as they can still OC in those places with a CPL.

In time as the general population realize that people carrying in PFZ is not a problem, we can work for OCing without a CPL anywhere, and in a vehicle, and maybe go for con-carry.

detroit_fan · Mar 28, 2012

(12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.

dougwg · Mar 28, 2012

detroit_fan said:
(12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.

unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization

Sorry but you failed.

You tried to make a post and look all intelligent and act like a moderator and all you did is get egg on your face.

-1 point

Besides he wasn't bashing them, he's bashing SB59 which he has every right to do.

j4l · Mar 28, 2012

NRA had a fair amount of hands-on in helping our OC bill get rolled-up, lit on fire, and tossed into the toilet, here in Fla.
In FAVOR of, some silly wording to our gun laws just to allow folks the option of buying a rifle in another State..
When asked , wtf? they basically shrugged and said OC was NOT A PRIORITY for them right now..
They no longer get any of my funds..

detroit_fan · Mar 28, 2012

dougwg said:
unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization

Sorry but you failed.

You tried to make a post and look all intelligent and act like a moderator and all you did is get egg on your face.

-1 point

Besides he wasn't bashing them, he's bashing SB59 which he has every right to do.

WTF are you talking about? How is posting a site rule trying to look intelligent? He went out of his way to bash them and called them "dedicated enemy of ours". And this bill has absolutely ZERO affect on OC in MI, so how is the NRA OC position related to this bill? Of course he can bash the bill, but i will ask, what bill does he have to take it's place that has a chance in hell at passing? Is he just attempting to kill this bill and leave us where we are now, with nothing better to replace it? At least Q is getting out there and trying to get something done, which is better than all of you that just bitch about bills and never provide anything better.

detroit_fan · Mar 28, 2012

j4l said:
NRA had a fair amount of hands-on in helping our OC bill get rolled-up, lit on fire, and tossed into the toilet, here in Fla.
In FAVOR of, some silly wording to our gun laws just to allow folks the option of buying a rifle in another State..
When asked , wtf? they basically shrugged and said OC was NOT A PRIORITY for them right now..
They no longer get any of my funds..

Fair enough, I didn't renew my NRA membership either and gave the money to the MOC legal fund to fight the CADL case. When the NRA called and asked why I didn't renew I told them it was because they need to be more supportive of OC and that because they were not helping with our CADL case that the money would be going to a state org that is helping. I'm not an NRA fanboy, they do LOTS of stuff I don't agree with, but i do respect the owners of this site and try to follow their posting rules.

TheQ · Mar 28, 2012

The NRA wasn't involved in the drafting of this bill.

Maybe we should just stop doing lobbying because one person who doesn't even live in Michigan anymore, barely post and I doubt is involved in reading everything that is going on is complain that we aren't doing it right?

TheQ · Mar 28, 2012

Here is Michigan open carry's philosophy on whether or not to support a bill: does the bill have a benefit for everyone that would leave them better off tomorrow than they were yesterday?

For the record, it wasn't just Q's choice to support the bill. The MOC board voted unanimously to support it.

Bronson · Mar 28, 2012

TheQ said:
Maybe we should just stop doing lobbying because one person who doesn't even live in Michigan anymore, barely post and I doubt is involved in reading everything that is going on is complain that we aren't doing it right?

Yeah, that's probably best.

Bronson

Glock9mmOldStyle · Mar 28, 2012

TheQ said:
The NRA wasn't involved in the drafting of this bill.

Maybe we should just stop doing lobbying because one person who doesn't even live in Michigan anymore, barely post and I doubt is involved in reading everything that is going on is complain that we aren't doing it right?

Q - rather than attacking him, maybe you should find out more info on what he finds wrong with the bill? Glen wrote a rather comprehensive book on MI gun laws. Can you say the same? Carry on.

TheQ · Mar 28, 2012

Glock9mmOldStyle said:
Q - rather than attacking him, maybe you should find out more info on what he finds wrong with the bill? Glen wrote a rather comprohensive book on MI gun laws. Can you say the same? Carry on.

It's obvious he doesn't like the training. Welcome to the club. It was a very hard sticking point in negotiations. I believe Mississippi recently passed a bill that does the same: eliminate PFZ for people who take more training.

detroit_fan · Mar 28, 2012

If you have time to whine and complain about something then you have the time to do something about it. -Anthony J. D’Angelo

Those of you that oppose this bill, what have you done to improve the PFZ issue? What bill have you drafted? What lawmakers have you been working with to get it passed? What progress have you made?

Glock9mmOldStyle · Mar 28, 2012

Before this thread devolves into a pi$$ing match, let us remember we want the same things. Critical thoughts are not attacks, they are just that (thought) & if possible we should use them when we can for a better out come for all, right?

stainless1911 · Mar 28, 2012

I too have distanced myself from the NRA. Thats the nicest way I know of to put it.

Im with you Michigander, but I have supported this bill for two reasons. If we dont get it, I dont see the current legislature doing anything else of any real value for the rest of the term, and secondly, it will allow people to be armed where they otherwise wouldnt be "allowed" to exercise a "right".

This is one step closer to constitutional carry.

detroit_fan · Mar 28, 2012

Glock9mmOldStyle said:
Q - rather than attacking him, maybe you should find out more info on what he finds wrong with the bill? Glen wrote a rather comprehensive book on MI gun laws. Can you say the same? Carry on.

I don't think it was an attack, I think it was a reply. The OP all but called him a liar, and basically called MOC a disgrace for supporting it.

What does being an author have to do with any of this? Is someone more qualified to be a 2A supporter if they write a book?

stainless1911 · Mar 28, 2012

glock9mmoldstyle said:
before this thread devolves into a pi$$ing match, let us remember we want the same things. Critical thoughts are not attacks, they are just that (thought) & if possible we should use them when we can for a better out come for all, right?

detroit_fan · Mar 28, 2012

Glock9mmOldStyle said:
Before this thread devolves into a pi$$ing match, let us remember we want the same things. Critical thoughts are not attacks, they are just that (thought) & if possible we should use them when we can for a better out come for all, right?

agreed, but people voicing critical thoughts should also offer solutions to those concerns.

The NRA, $$$, SB59 and why we should stop it.

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