The NRA, $$$, SB59 and why we should stop it.

313 · Mar 30, 2012

313 said:
Why SB 59 is a bad thing for gun owners
My friends, after a long and drawn out battle over our domain name with another company our site is back and we have a VERY urgent message for you!

Currently there is a bill up for vote called SB59. Some of you may be aware of this bill and its contents, other may not. Recently, some of our members asked for our feedback on this bill. Several key topics are included in SB59, the main issue being allowing citizens who take an extra day of CPL training to carry in pistol free zones. This bill does nothing to restore our Constitutional Rights, nor does it bring us closer to our goal of Constitutional Carry. In fact the only thing this bill does is continue to dangle the carrot in front of lawful gun owners that if we want the "right" to carry in pistol free zones we need more training as mandated by the Government. Individuals will not be forced to take this additional training if they do not choose, but they will be forced to take it if they wish to exercise a right that they should have anyway. If I can open carry in a school or a bar with a valid CPL with no additional training that what I have already received, how does putting my shirt over my firearm make me less responsible therefore requiring me to take more training?

We always say that laws make no sense, this one is no different. The goal should be to repeal current legislation, not continue to layer it with more nonsensical bureaucratic red tape. Some will argue that you need to take "baby steps" to accomplish the overall goal, you can't get there in one leap, it takes time. In my opinion this is a cop out. If all firearm owners united and fought for Constitutional Carry the message to our elected officials would be overwhelming, but instead society has become accustom to taking bread crumbs we are given. Have we lost our way? Have we forgotten that WE are the people that our Constitution refers to? Have we become so indoctrinated that we grab the first thing thrown our way and call it a step in the right direction? I pray we have not gotten to that point. I believe that there is still fight in us to take back what is rightfully ours.

In short, CLSD can not support SB59 in its current form. This contradicts that very principles that I founded this organization on. On May 19th at the Constitutional Carry Rally I will deliver a speech on restoring our rights, if we supported this bill I would not even be able to look you all in the eye, how could I stand up there and say, "I support Constitutional Carry and the 2nd Amendment, BUT......". General Patton was quoted as saying "Anyone, in any walk of life who is content with mediocrity is untrue to himself and the American way."

I encourage all members to research this bill for yourselves and draw your own conclusions.

We will NOT compromise! We will not settle! Thank you for your time and consideration.

Carry on,

John Roshek
President / CEO, Citizens League For Self Defense, Inc.

http://www.johnroshek.com/2012/03/why-sb-59-is-bad-thing-for-gun-owners.html

At least Cross Pistols had the balls to turn in his CPL and start carrying an antique firearm.

If the CPL is so unconstitutional how about burning them John?

stainless1911 · Mar 30, 2012

your comment will appear after approval...hmmm

Those of us support the bill realize that our constitutional rights are long since dead, never to return, and we know that the only way to get by in this world is to play along with whatever is left of our so called rights. Take what they give you, take nothing, or take over. Since nobody wants to take over, there is only one viable option for the law abiding gun owner who wishes to defend him or herself.

313 · Mar 30, 2012

stainless1911 said:
Those of us support the bill realize that our constitutional rights are long since dead, never to return, and we know that the only way to get by in this world is to play along with whatever is left of our so called rights. Take what they give you, take nothing, or take over. Since nobody wants to take over, there is only one viable option for the law abiding gun owner who wishes to defend him or herself.

There were some that wanted to take over. They ended up quitting as soon as things got tough. The Founding quitters.. Venator, Warchild, GeneralDet.

NHCGRPR45 · Mar 30, 2012

Well has no one thought that with this proposed legislation that MOC is reaching across the table to the conceal carry license holders of this state? OC'ers are the minority here in this state and since this SB- 59 came out of an open carry group we may have made some pretty numerous allies? Or at least showed we are not one dimensional hard liners ?? This bill helps both groups of gun advocates, CC a little more than OC sure, but at least its going in the right direction for gun rights, more specifically people who carry guns for self defense.

There are of course things I like and don't like about this bill but once it passes, it will be easier to address those short comings than trying to ram a bill down the throats of people who are are only out for themselves. Baby steps people. Walk before you run, crawl before you walk.

I really like the training requirements, and I have always advocated training and taken heat for as well. Tuff more training make you a better gun handler.

Its true the NRA is less than excited about open carry, and as such my monetary contributions have slacked off. And I don't use the NRA for my classes for the MI CPL training requirement. And other training courses and training theories are better so I use those. I suppose my point is that sometimes we need to see beyond our diffrences and try to remember that we are all on the same side, trying to reach the same destination. We may take diffrent paths sure but if we all end up in the right place then whats the harm?

I suppose that since I have to add negative then I would like it (SB-59) to specifically state that with the CPL exempted box that it allows OC or CC and does not mandate one or the other. For instance I walk into to pick my daughter from school, and I have that box checked and for some reason a police officer has caught wind of the new law and thinks I must conceal. I would prefer it to be stated in the actual law so that there can be no confusion when/if it comes before a judge that OC or CC is O.K. .

xmanhockey7 · Mar 30, 2012

We should just try to make bills that we see as "perfect". No CPLs, no purchase permits, no PFZs, no age requirements get rid of them all. Sure the bill will go no where but who cares if we can't get everything let's not try to get anything.

TheQ · Mar 30, 2012

NHCGRPR45 said:
I really like the training requirements, and I have always advocated training and taken heat for as well. Tuff more training make you a better gun handler.

I advocate more training too. I don't like the government mandating more...but it's optional in order to get rid of PFZs for any individual who wants to take it.

stainless1911 · Mar 30, 2012

xmanhockey7 said:
We should just try to make bills that we see as "perfect". No CPLs, no purchase permits, no PFZs, no age requirements get rid of them all. Sure the bill will go no where but who cares if we can't get everything let's not try to get anything.

If you want those things you will have to move.

xmanhockey7 · Mar 30, 2012

stainless1911 said:
If you want those things you will have to move.

Yeah looking at the fact Arizona can't get campus carry passed let alone all their PFZs I don't see us being able to do it without adding something like optional training. I was using sarcasm btw for anyone who couldn't tell.

NHCGRPR45 · Mar 30, 2012

xmanhockey7 said:
We should just try to make bills that we see as "perfect". No CPLs, no purchase permits, no PFZs, no age requirements get rid of them all. Sure the bill will go no where but who cares if we can't get everything let's not try to get anything.

Help me here, are you advocating running with a plan you KNOW WILL FAIL?NOT WORK?? And making that YOUR PRIMARY/ONLY PLAN??

NHCGRPR45 · Mar 30, 2012

TheQ said:
I advocate more training too. I don't like the government mandating more...but it's optional in order to get rid of PFZs for any individual who wants to take it.

Yes, mandating training isn't the best option however it is a workable one.

xmanhockey7 · Mar 30, 2012

NHCGRPR45 said:
Help me here, are you advocating running with a plan you KNOW WILL FAIL?NOT WORK?? And making that YOUR PRIMARY/ONLY PLAN??

It seems that's what a lot of people want to do. They won't support any bill that doesn't eliminate PFZs, con carry, etc. Do I was all those things? YES!!!! But I realize that we need to do things to get bills passed. One of which may be having to do additional training to be exempt from 28.425o. Personally I'd rather have the option to do it by taking an extra class than not be able to do it at all.

NHCGRPR45 · Mar 30, 2012

PDinDetroit said:
And scot623 (Rob) and I (Paul) would be there opposing such efforts, right there with you.

And NHCGRPR45 Shaun M. will be there as well.

NHCGRPR45 · Mar 30, 2012

xmanhockey7 said:
It seems that's what a lot of people want to do. They won't support any bill that doesn't eliminate PFZs, con carry, etc. Do I was all those things? YES!!!! But I realize that we need to do things to get bills passed. One of which may be having to do additional training to be exempt from 28.425o. Personally I'd rather have the option to do it by taking an extra class than not be able to do it at all.

I believe that is the case, you don't have to take the additional training if you don't want to. And if you decided you did want the training then you could take it later and get the exemption on your license.

313 · Mar 30, 2012

PDinDetroit said:
And scot623 (Rob) and I (Paul) would be there opposing such efforts, right there with you.

And me too (insert current username here)!!!

313 · Mar 30, 2012

xmanhockey7 said:
It seems that's what a lot of people want to do. They won't support any bill that doesn't eliminate PFZs, con carry, etc. Do I was all those things? YES!!!! But I realize that we need to do things to get bills passed. One of which may be having to do additional training to be exempt from 28.425o. Personally I'd rather have the option to do it by taking an extra class than not be able to do it at all.

Most people I know that carry on a regular basis take additional training. And I don't mean range time. I train several times a year with professional trainers. Training that I am certain would pass the requirements of the exemption.

The only people that don't do this are the ones that end up shooting themselves.

Any ideas on who that might be? :wink:

Venator · Mar 30, 2012

NHCGRPR45 said:
Well has no one thought that with this proposed legislation that MOC is reaching across the table to the conceal carry license holders of this state? OC'ers are the minority here in this state and since this SB- 59 came out of an open carry group we may have made some pretty numerous allies? Or at least showed we are not one dimensional hard liners ?? This bill helps both groups of gun advocates, CC a little more than OC sure, but at least its going in the right direction for gun rights, more specifically people who carry guns for self defense.

There are of course things I like and don't like about this bill but once it passes, it will be easier to address those short comings than trying to ram a bill down the throats of people who are are only out for themselves. Baby steps people. Walk before you run, crawl before you walk.

I really like the training requirements, and I have always advocated training and taken heat for as well. Tuff more training make you a better gun handler.

Its true the NRA is less than excited about open carry, and as such my monetary contributions have slacked off. And I don't use the NRA for my classes for the MI CPL training requirement. And other training courses and training theories are better so I use those. I suppose my point is that sometimes we need to see beyond our diffrences and try to remember that we are all on the same side, trying to reach the same destination. We may take diffrent paths sure but if we all end up in the right place then whats the harm?

I suppose that since I have to add negative then I would like it (SB-59) to specifically state that with the CPL exempted box that it allows OC or CC and does not mandate one or the other. For instance I walk into to pick my daughter from school, and I have that box checked and for some reason a police officer has caught wind of the new law and thinks I must conceal. I would prefer it to be stated in the actual law so that there can be no confusion when/if it comes before a judge that OC or CC is O.K. .

On Training, Steven Dulan mentioned to the Senate Committee that John Lott did some research on training and found no statistical return on safety with increased training. I'll see if he can link the study.

SpringerXDacp · Mar 30, 2012

Venator said:
On Training, Steven Dulan mentioned to the Senate Committee that John Lott did some research on training and found no statistical return on safety with increased training. I'll see if he can link the study.

I suspect Lee Paige had a lot of training.

WilDChilD · Mar 30, 2012

313 said:
And me too (insert current username here)!!!

I am having a problem keeping up.

scot623 · Mar 30, 2012

313 said:
Most people I know that carry on a regular basis take additional training. And I don't mean range time. I train several times a year with professional trainers. Training that I am certain would pass the requirements of the exemption.

The only people that don't do this are the ones that end up shooting themselves.

Any ideas on who that might be? :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTGmTrQXrwg

Best video evar

313 · Mar 30, 2012

WilDChilD said:
I am having a problem keeping up.

Then take notes.:banana:

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