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Thread: Is the .22LR enough bullet?

  1. #1
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    Is the .22LR enough bullet?


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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Thumbs up It was once said; and debated, that death...

    ...could be caused with a "toothpick". That being said, I would take a .22 over a toothpick, and believe a .22 to be a good choice for a starter. This caliber pistol will impress a BG without intimidating it's shooter with recoil.

    As with anything, you get what you pay for. This is true with the reliability of the pistol, and the ammo. I own a Ruger MK II that was built in 1982. With proper care this pistol will fire 250 - 300 rounds in a hour before a stove pipe. The magazine must be released to clear the stovepipe and the release is at the base of the grip which is awkward. Once released, pull the slide back to clear the spent shell, it will drop out. I had a Torus PT .22 and it was junk. I don't know about the other Rugar models as I'm fine with the one I have. boar out.
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Personal choice...

    I would not carry a 22LR for self defense.

    ETA: ... Unless had absoulutley no other choice...

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 03-28-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    A .22Long Rifle is plenty good for self defense.... in the proper setting. Or, if you care about your neighbors, this one.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-28-2012 at 11:27 AM.

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    I was born with cerebral palsy on my right side, I'm 44 yrs old. i don't have the use of my right arm and i'm on a fixed income. i got a .22 cal revolver 9 shot when i was 13, which i will be ocing when mother nature decides it's spring instead of winter.. meaning it's cold here in idaho still. If i ever have to use my .22 cal revolver, which i hope i never have to, i'm sure i could slow down or even stop a bg if need be. plus a .22 cal is all i can afford.

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    boar is right, but what he says is true of any caliber handgun, quality comes at a price. I have a Ruger scope mounted slab side. I have fired probably 4000 rounds through it. I do clean it after each shooting session but I have never had a jam, stovepipe or misfire with it. I also have an Iver Johnson trailsman that has been 100% reliable. I have a new style Whitney Wolverine that is junk, I have a 1963 model Whitney Wolverine that is excellent. I have a Bersa T23 that is OK with the right ammo. My go to .22's are a pair of High Standard sentinel revolvers(that is when and if my ordered Ruger LCR22) ever arrives. I have never had a stovepipe with either of them. No jams either. But as Boar implies, do your research and buy the best gun you can afford. A cheap gun is better than no gun even if you have to use it as a club.

    As for the .22 as a self defense weapon. A smaller person that can shoot a .22 caliber handgun very well is a bigger threat to the bg than if he is shoolting a larger handgun with his eyes closed and teeth gritted, in spite of what the "experts" say.

    Any bullet that can completely penetrate 4 inches of beef roast wrapped in 8 layers of denim at 300 yards is no "pip-squeak" in my estimation.

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    - What da hay?

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    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    That there's funny; I don't care who ya are...

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    In general there are 6 types of people who will carry a .22 as their primary weapon for anti-personnel reasons:

    1) Someone who only has a .22
    2) Someone who can't handle anything more powerful than a .22
    3) Someone who is extremely skilled and has the ability and confidence to always place the round where it will be effective.
    4) Professionals involved in assassination, "wet work" or contract killings and who want a small, easily concealed and relatively quiet gun.
    5) Those who would prefer something more powerful but have a need to carry a very small gun in deep concealment (trading firepower for concealment.)
    6) Those who carry one simply because they can. This is, of course the worse reason for carrying a .22

    Probably the majority of .22 carriers fall under #1 and #2. #'s 3,4, & 5 would be rare individuals. There are probably more #6 people than I care to think about. I realize some will say they carry a .22 because it is small and lightweight (and some of them are) but there are more powerful guns nowadays that are comparably small and light-- rendering the "small and light .22" argument difficult to justify.
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    Shotgun:

    Sounds like 1 through 5 are positive reasons to carry a .22.
    #6 is the worst reason for carrying any caliber firearm.

    Heard a saying many years ago. "If you don't have water available and the only way you can put out the fire is to pee on it, then do it".

  11. #11
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Shotgun:

    Sounds like 1 through 5 are positive reasons to carry a .22.
    #6 is the worst reason for carrying any caliber firearm.

    Heard a saying many years ago. "If you don't have water available and the only way you can put out the fire is to pee on it, then do it".
    Unless it is an electrical fire.
    A. Gold

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    I think the heart of the issue isn't whether or not .22 in any form is lethal...does it disable a criminal quickly enough? The smallest round I'd ever consider efficient enough for disabling is .380...and even then I'd be cringing my teeth. The fact of the matter is that 6 shots in the chest with .22 won't stop a BG nearly as often/quickly as 4-5 .38spl/9mm rounds placed in the same general area. I don't give a flying f**k whether or not I cause a BG fatal liver failure due to a tiny ass bullet if he's still ontop of my girlfriend with a knife...I care about him bleeding out to unconsciousness, oxygen lung obstruction, mobility obstruction due to muscle/joint damage, mobility obstruction due to possible spine/nerve damage, and the degree in which the load actually "blows an attacker back" (if at all).

    The .22 in any form (please don't argue endlessly about .22 magnum) simply does not perform these tasks as quickly and effectively for the average American defense shooter. A .22 may always beat a baseball bat, but chances are it won't beat the criminal who AT LEAST has a .22 (probably a .25/.380/9mm, let alone 9mm+).

    I personally dismiss these tiny mouse guns. The only people who benefit from carrying such a small caliber weapon are assassins and brandish-primary users. If you just want to wave it at the gangsters with the brass knuckles, then go to walmart and buy an air soft gun for 1/3 the price. Chances are it'll be more visible and you'll be able to replace it for less when the [insert any dense object here] wielding gang bangers high on cocaine/Oxycontin crack both your gun and your skull in half on the sidewalk.

    If you're going to carry, make it AT LEAST.380 in some sort of HP load. Small quick rounds that over penetrate only lead to conscious drugged up BG's still standing and injured bystanders in walmart... both of which make the 2nd Amendment community look mighty silly.

    TL;DR Get a single stack 9mm (or bigger) and be done with it

    Jake8x7
    Last edited by Jake8x7; 03-29-2012 at 05:31 PM.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake8x7 View Post

    I personally dismiss these tiny mouse guns. The only people who benefit from carrying such a small caliber weapon are assassins and brandish-primary users. If you just want to wave it at the gangsters with the brass knuckles, then go to walmart and buy an air soft gun for 1/3 the price.
    B*lllsh*t, b*llsh*t, and meaningless bravado.

    http://www.ajc.com/news/gwinnett/pol...me-942224.html
    "He forced her into her bedroom," Ritter said. "Once inside the bedroom, she retrieved a .22-caliber pistol and shot him several times." Ritter characterized the attack as an attempted sexual assault.

    The suspect ran outside the house and collapsed. He was taken to Gwinnett Medical Center, where he died.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake8x7 View Post
    The .22 in any form (please don't argue endlessly about .22 magnum) simply does not perform these tasks as quickly and effectively for the average American defense shooter.

    I personally dismiss these tiny mouse guns. The only people who benefit from carrying such a small caliber weapon are assassins and brandish-primary users.
    My 70-ish exMiL carried a Beretta Bobcat in .22LR and knew that it was a belly-gun.

    8x7 might be Jake's preferred round and 8 mm is large caliber but 8x7 is still underpowered.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Assuming freakishly good shot placement, a higher velocity cartridge, and a barrel long enough to allow enough combustion to get that little bullet going fast enough to penetrate the skull reliably, then yes, it is enough. Anything less than all of that, and no, the 22 is not enough.

    Yes any 22 may work through putting an attacker in fear, but if you're referring to a worst case scenario where you have seconds to kill or be killed, low velocity rounds and/or short barrels should be avoided at all costs with 22s.

    The shorties may score a kill shot, but it won't help if a felon kills you then expires at the hospital the next day. This sort of outcome is much more possible with the baby Brownings and similar sized pocket 22 and 25 handguns. The velocity just isn't as there for going through bones AND vital organs, statistically speaking.

    If you want a tiny baby browning sized package which is more capable than that, you either need more powder, such as with the 25 NAA, or need more lead and more powder, such as with the 32 or 380. And the same rules apply for these small rounds as with the big 22s, as in hit what your aiming at or expect failure.
    Last edited by Michigander; 03-29-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    B*lllsh*t, b*llsh*t, and meaningless bravado.
    It seems that you didn't add any evidence to support this. Jake said it didn't matter if you KILLED the assailant if they still have the ability to continue the attack. The guy in your quote easily could have killed the woman if he had any weapon at all.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    It seems that you didn't add any evidence to support this. Jake said it didn't matter if you KILLED the assailant if they still have the ability to continue the attack. The guy in your quote easily could have killed the woman if he had any weapon at all.
    Seriously?

    WTF.

    The guy in my quote could have easily been a Space T-Rex piloting a giant meteor made of gold and armed with ICBMs raining terror down from the heavens too.

    Fact is he wasn't. He is dead. Killed by a .22 which stopped the attack. She is alive. Saved by her .22.

    End of story.


    Let the caliber queens pontificate! I can do this all day.

    From The Armed Citizen Archives
    March 1975: Aroused at 5 a.m., Mrs. Estelle Beavan, 61, a Seattle widow, found a young man "tearing up the whole front of the house." She telephoned police. BUt when the man, after ripping off a storm door, bashed through a thick double-locked door, Mrs. Beavan fired one shot at about 10 ft. with a small .22 handgun that she had bought on the advice of a "relative in law enforcement." A bullet in the chest halted the intruder. Police said he was crazed by drugs. (The Seattle Times, Seattle, Wash.)
    http://www.americanrifleman.org/blog...-march-29-2012
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 03-29-2012 at 11:52 PM.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I am talking in facts that YOU brought up so I am somehow stupid or crazy? If he would have been determined he easily could have killed/hurt the home owner, he had enough time and life left in him to do that. I am not saying that a .22 isn't enough to kill someone, it has proven time and again to be adequate. BUT what good is it going to do to kill someone who is trying to take your life if it happens AFTER they do. How about you google how many times people have been shot by a .22 and lived at least long enough to accomplish any deeds? You'll find a lot.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  19. #19
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    If he would have been determined he easily could have killed/hurt the home owner, he had enough time and life left in him to do that.
    And if Unicorns roamed the world we could live in peace and harmony. By drinking their magical blood.

    You can play the shoulda, coulda, woulda all you want. It won't change the fact that people protect themselves with .22s. People die from .22s. It's funny elderly ladies have no trouble defending themselves with .22s but the sheepdogs can't.

    A man shot and killed what police say was an intruder who forced his way into a couple's home on Shinglehouse Slough Road early Thursday morning.

    Allen Wayne Saunders, 38, was killed by a single shot from a .22 caliber rifle, said Coos County District Attorney Paul Frasier at a Thursday morning news conference.

    Read more: http://theworldlink.com/news/local/a...#ixzz1qZIz3kOJ
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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  20. #20
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    And if Unicorns roamed the world we could live in peace and harmony. By drinking their magical blood.

    You can play the shoulda, coulda, woulda all you want. It won't change the fact that people protect themselves with .22s. People die from .22s. It's funny elderly ladies have no trouble defending themselves with .22s but the sheepdogs can't.
    Can you not have a grown up debate? If you are over the age of 12, please act like it. Do you understand how to debate? You make a response, I acknowledge it and make a rebuttal. Then you are suppose to make a logical response to either support your initial stance, to reduce or disprove mine or make a new stance in the light of things brought to your attention after your initial statement.

    This childish game reflects poorly on you.

    I never said that people don't protect themselves with a .22, I never said that .22 isn't capable of producing death. I merely asserted that many times the .22 does not immediately incapacitate the person and in that time the threat remains.
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 03-30-2012 at 12:07 AM.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Yes, a .22 can kill. If your lucky, it will kill before the attacker gets you or someone else. Whether you trust it enough to carry, is totally up to you. But I never would. I have a .380 as a backup gun and even then I'm kind of worried if it will be enough even with good shot placement, simply b/c it does not penetrate as deep as your more common carry rounds. I just don't see the need to carry a .22 when they make pistols nearly as small as a .22 now days in a bigger caliber.
    The M4...serving scum the laws of terminal ballistics at 2,900FPS

  22. #22
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Can you not have a grown up debate?
    Why yes I can if the occasion arises. This however is not a debate. This is just the same old "My penis is the biggest so do what I say" schtick. I have offered you three REAL LIFE examples of people defending themselves successfully with .22s. And where the bad guy ended up dead. You ignore them. So there is nothing to debate.


    If you are over the age of 12, please act like it. Do you understand how to debate? You make a response, I acknowledge it and make a rebuttal. Then you are suppose to make a logical response to either support your initial stance, to reduce or disprove mine or make a new stance in the light of things brought to your attention after your initial statement.
    Well I don't know of anything more logical than real life examples that real life people survived. As apposed to your fantastical and illogical "well could have" fairy tales that you made up.

    This childish game reflects poorly on you.
    I'm sorry you do not appreciate Unicorns.

    I never said that people don't protect themselves with a .22, I never said that .22 isn't capable of producing death. I merely asserted that many times the .22 does not immediately incapacitate the person and in that time the threat remains.
    Cite? How many times? What's the percentage of people who died because their .22 failed to protect them vs those that did protect themselves successfully with a .22? How do those percentages add up to all the other calibers?

    And for the bonus:

    Name one self defense tool that is 100% effective, 100% of the time, in 100% of all situations, is 100% available to everyone, and can be used by 100% of everyone*.

    How about you google how many times people have been shot by a .22 and lived at least long enough to accomplish any deeds? You'll find a lot.
    Really? How about YOU google it and enlighten us.










    p.s. Happy Friday, have a great weekend.

    *(hint: It starts with a Space T-Rex)
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 03-30-2012 at 04:19 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
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  23. #23
    Regular Member MainelyGlock's Avatar
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    A well placed round(s) in a defensive shooting of any caliber is "enough bullet", as long as you are proficient with your weapon. Practice practice practice!
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Why yes I can if the occasion arises. This however is not a debate. This is just the same old "My penis is the biggest so do what I say" schtick. I have offered you three REAL LIFE examples of people defending themselves successfully with .22s. And where the bad guy ended up dead. You ignore them. So there is nothing to debate.




    Well I don't know of anything more logical than real life examples that real life people survived. As apposed to your fantastical and illogical "well could have" fairy tales that you made up.



    I'm sorry you do not appreciate Unicorns.



    Cite? How many times? What's the percentage of people who died because their .22 failed to protect them vs those that did protect themselves successfully with a .22? How do those percentages add up to all the other calibers?

    And for the bonus:

    Name one self defense tool that is 100% effective, 100% of the time, in 100% of all situations, is 100% available to everyone, and can be used by 100% of everyone*.



    Really? How about YOU google it and enlighten us.










    p.s. Happy Friday, have a great weekend.

    *(hint: It starts with a Space T-Rex)


    Cant believe I'm doing so, but.. I have to agree 100% with ^. Childish and mildly... dense though he is, when he's right -he's right. And he is. As is the post after.
    We all have our preferences, and our prejudices regarding round/make/model/brand/ bore etc.
    But @ the end of the day, a .22 -can, under the right circumstances, be quiet effective.
    Are smaller-medium-bore, and "less powerful" rounds going to be AS effective as something larger-bore/heavier, most of the time? No. But there are plenty of rounds larger and "more powerful" than .22/ .25 that are even LESS effective a lot of the time (9mm .380 .38 -in most,not all, loads) -no matter where you hit/aim , etc.
    When your time comes, you simply have to make the best possible use that you can, of whatever tool is at hand, and hope for the best. Is that ideal? No, but that's reality. Round A (unless its a .45 or better : ) isnt always going to out-perform Round B (unless it's 9mm NATO ) 100% of the time, under all circumstances or against all targets.
    Even with a "better" round, depending on the load used, you can score head shots repeatedly with no penetration of the skull- and be no better off than if you were using a .22 anyway. No matter the round, physics and the physical/mental/emotional state of the target is going to have a lot to do with what works, and what doesnt- and you have exactly ZERO way of knowing how that will turn out until you pull the trigger.

  25. #25
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Why yes I can if the occasion arises. This however is not a debate. This is just the same old "My penis is the biggest so do what I say" schtick. I have offered you three REAL LIFE examples of people defending themselves successfully with .22s. And where the bad guy ended up dead. You ignore them. So there is nothing to debate.
    If you want to compare like that it is more along the lines of my penis is biggest (taken as fact by you. Everyone knows a 9mm is bigger than a .22.) and I am trying to convince you to why having a bigger penis is more desirable and you're saying that your smaller penis would do the job just as effectively. That is more akin to what the debate is, if you want to compare it like that.

    Now then, back to the debate, YOU have offered two (out of three) REAL LIFE examples to support what I am saying. Please try to understand what I am trying to say. A .22 IS capable of stopping a threat (evident in all your cites), a .22 IS capable of producing death (evident in all your cites) and a .22 IS capable of incapacitating a threat (evident in all your cites). <--- That is proven facts that you are trying to debate. Those are not questioned. I am saying that a high percent of the times (66% so far) the .22 does not IMMEDIATELY INCAPACITATE the threat. This is what I find important. Do you think it would give me any sick feeling of pleasure knowing that I took my killer to the grave with me? No, because I will be dead. I will be incapable of having feelings.

    How many people, that are a threat, are on hard drugs? I would say that a large percent of them are. With any hard drug and adrenaline people can continue to fight through a large amount of pain (Fact). You can find many stories of people getting shot multiple and continuing the attack. Would you rather have a .22 in that situation? Do you think a .22 would produce better or equal results?

    How about the cases where a .22 was used. Do you think a 9mm, .40, .45 etc would have produced equal or better results? Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Well I don't know of anything more logical than real life examples that real life people survived. As apposed to your fantastical and illogical "well could have" fairy tales that you made up.
    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    B*lllsh*t, b*llsh*t, and meaningless bravado.
    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Seriously?
    WTF.
    The guy in my quote could have easily been a Space T-Rex piloting a giant meteor made of gold and armed with ICBMs raining terror down from the heavens too.
    Fact is he wasn't. He is dead. Killed by a .22 which stopped the attack. She is alive. Saved by her .22.
    End of story.
    Let the caliber queens pontificate! I can do this all day.
    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    And if Unicorns roamed the world we could live in peace and harmony. By drinking their magical blood.
    You can play the shoulda, coulda, woulda all you want. It won't change the fact that people protect themselves with .22s. People die from .22s. It's funny elderly ladies have no trouble defending themselves with .22s but the sheepdogs can't.
    I sure hope this is not the pinnacle of your logic. Do you understand much? I said that the .22 doesn't usually immediately incapacitate a threat, you offer 2 out of 3 cites that support this claim and then say that it is made up? Or even a rare case? Yes the people in your three cases did survive and I am glad of that. But how different do you think the situation would have been if it was a heroine junky looking for some cash to his next fix? Probably would have ended a bit differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Cite? How many times? What's the percentage of people who died because their .22 failed to protect them vs those that did protect themselves successfully with a .22? How do those percentages add up to all the other calibers?
    Cite what? You are doing a fine job in providing cites for my cause. Does it matter how many died because their .22 failed to cause incapacitation? Would that make you or your family feel any better know that you are a minority in the statistics?

    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    And for the bonus:

    Name one self defense tool that is 100% effective, 100% of the time, in 100% of all situations, is 100% available to everyone, and can be used by 100% of everyone*.
    By this logic you should use high test fishing twine for rock climbing because ropes don't always hold up too? I like it. If it isn't 100% effective or 100% efficient then you should naturally use the one LESS effective for your particular situation. Doesn't matter if a .357 or a .45 has a proven record as a man stopper because they, too, aren't 100% effective. So we should use a .22 because it isn't 100% either, doesn't matter if it is less effective than either of the other two.

    I never once claimed that there is a magic caliber perfect for everything, but if I did the .22 wouldn't be it. I think the .22 has many advantages over other calibers but "stopping power" usually isn't it.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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