Is the .22LR enough bullet?

newbie said:

Uhm I wasn't aware there was a difference? Maybe just never heard of any real term for it mag/clip same thing. At least in my world.

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A magazine has moving parts, usually a spring and follower, and can be detachable or integral to the firearm. It provides mechanical assistance to the feeding of ammo as the action is cycled.

A clip is a device that simply holds a group of rounds together. It does not have any moving parts and does not play an active role in the operation of the firearm. Examples of a clip would be a moon clip for a revolver or a strip clip for an early 20th century semi-auto combat rifle.

Personally, I don't care if you call a detachable magazine a clip.

Guess you learn something new everyday thanks for the explanation.

newbie said:

Uhm I wasn't aware there was a difference? Maybe just never heard of any real term for it mag/clip same thing. At least in my world.

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Levi's definition certainly isn't incorrect, but it's not how I would make the differentiation.

Specifically, a magazine is the part of a repeating weapon in which subsequent rounds are stored or held for loading. The magazine may or may not be removable. The magazine may or may not be loaded using a clip.

For instance, the AR-15 and its derivatives have a detachable box magazine, which is loadable using stripper clips. The C96, in contrast, has an internal, non-detachable magazine which is also loaded with stripper clips. The 1911 has a detachable box magazine for which there are no clips.

Frankly I think the best way to think about the distinction is etymologically (hence my somewhat redundant response to this tangent).

magazine |ˌmagəˈzēn, ˈmagəˌzēn|
noun
1 a periodical publication containing articles and illustrations, typically covering a particular subject or area of interest: a car magazine | a women's magazine.
2 a chamber for holding a supply of cartridges to be fed automatically to the breech of a gun.
3 a store for arms, ammunition, explosives, and provisions for use in military operations.

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On the other hand, a clip is, well, a clip. It holds things together. Like a paper clip. Or a hair clip.

clip 1 |klip|
noun
a device, typically flexible or worked by a spring, for holding an object or objects together or in place.

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A final note for those who think "clip" is cool for the sake of brevity: that's why we invented "mag".

American is a fun language.

sig mosquito

my wife falls into the "this is all i can handle catgory". with rheumatoid arthritis other calibers are too much for her to shoot and then follow up accurately, with the sig mosquito she can fire all 10 in the mag rapidly and still maintain sight picture. and of course we practice all the time.

marshaul said:

A final note for those who think "clip" is cool for the sake of brevity: that's why we invented "mag". American is a fun language.

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Thanks Marshaul. For true "brevity" (yes, scare quotes), try wull, like, y' know. Whatever!.

newbie said:

Uhm I wasn't aware there was a difference? Maybe just never heard of any real term for it mag/clip same thing. At least in my world.


Anyways any non believers build that thing I was talking about?


Also you gotta love .380s small good for cc the only thing I wish I did before I brought mine was looked at ammo price I thought it was cheaper then the 9mm. Guess I was wrong though 9mm is cheaper then the 380ACP

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Yes sir, there is a big difference. I wasn't flaming you... just trying to get you to become more familiar with terminology. That's all.

To add on the other definitions the magazine facilitates the loading of the firearm's chamber. It usually pushes the next round into the loading position. Most clips (from what I have seen) are just simple stamped metal. Some of them have leave springs to hinder the rounds from inadvertently being removed. Others just have small tabs bent up into the way of the rounds so this tab has to be bent down (usually with the round) before the rounds can be removed.

Usually clips are all single stacked. Mostly 10rds. These commonly feed the internal magazine of an SKS or some bolt action rifles, or the detachable box magazine for an AR or AK.

You even have some designed to help load a revolver. Some look similar to the above stripper clips so that you can more quickly load a revolver without having the profile of the rounds clips. This means that you can only load a maximum of three rounds in one action but this action is repeatable in short order. It is faster than loading a revolver one round at a time. The next pistol clips are round in shape, you have the speed loader that is removed before the firing sequence begins or the moon clip that is usually stored in the firearm with your rounds to be fired. Moon clips are common in guns designed to firearm common rimless (.45acp is a good example) rounds as it adds something to grip to. This is not always the case though.

En-bloc clips store as many rounds as the magazine can hold. The clip and all sit in the magazine of the firearm until all rounds are spent. The most common En-bloc clip is the M1 Garand clip. This clip is automatically ejected after the stored rounds have all been removed and ejected (usually in the course of firing).

They even have shotgun clips that is a long tube to load the tube magazine commonly found on shotguns. As this is bulky it is not commonly used.

So to recap, a magazine a facilitates the loading of the chamber, a clip facilitates loading of a magazine.

I get both meanings personally... Most say a magazine is how they recognize the said part of a semi automatic. However I (following rules of scrabble) also understand clip as its a term in common usage. Personally when people mention the term "magazine" my first visual image is my wife's slutty Cosmo magazines... However yelling "Last Mag!" or "mag" will get u whatever I can spare ammunition wise.

11 yr old defends family from two armed attackers with .22 rifle. One attacker in critical condition.

[video=youtube;Oz3VX1ZAqoA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oz3VX1ZAqoA[/video]

I would be so proud of my son.

Xulld said:

Good point, I think it is worth considering, in fact the last two days I have been going over various rifle caliber pistols, or collapsable rifles. Even considered going through all the hasle of getting an SBR for the truck. Not sure tho what to do.

I was considering a Draco AK. Apparently they are pretty dam controllable and accurate out to decent distance for the size. Id just hate to keep an expensive rifle in the truck and have it stolen, hence why my AR is not an option lol.

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I picked up a Mini Draco AK Pistol and thought of it as a truck gun. In Virginia you aren't allowed to transport a loaded rifles and I like the capacity of 30 round magazines. They are fairly cheap but are "project" guns. By the time I added a rail, hogue grip, rail, red dot sight, sling, AGP2, flash hider I doubled the price of the gun. I figure it is a great crowd control gun and it is a hoot to shoot.

If the SHTF I will fight my way to my .308 rifle, my oldest will have the AR-15 and my youngest will have the Sig522 .22LR. So far the .22LR is the only caliber she will shoot because she doesn't enjoy (meaning keep her eyes open when firing!) other calibers like a .380.

This is my first post, so first of all greetings to all of you!!!

My take on the .22 comes from years and years of shooting, hunting, etc. I'm not a ballistics expert, or anything like that, but my philosophy is.........

You start shooting someone in the face with a .22lr they are going to stop doing what they are doing.!


That's just my personal opinion on the subject.....and i believe it's true. : )

Is the .22 LR enough bullet?

Seems like other posters are covering this, but I'll toss in my 2 cents as well. If you're being attacked, a .50 BMG, 20 mm canon and a flamethrower will all feel inadequate.

If you absolutely CAN'T carry anything larger, due to concealment requirements (trading size for effectiveness) or physical impairment (can't handle anything larger), a .22 LR is better than bare hands. If the .22 is what you're stuck with, get the best ammo you can afford and practice, practice, practice. And if you ever have to use it, pray.

09jisaac said:

If anyone wants to disprove what I am saying (bold if you already forgot) then cite a case where common defensive rounds failed to put down a threat but a .22 in the same general location (at roughly the same point in time on the same person) did. Or you could find percent of people immediately incapacitated by a .22 and other rounds. If the .22 is up there with common defensive calibers/rounds then I will apologize for my unsupported argument. If you can't disprove what I am saying, then quit acting like I am stupid for saying it and quit acting like this is a p!ssing contest.

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i found this site by accident. i am in a similiar debate on another forum, and thought i would add to this one. the clerk had a .38 special, and the robber had a .22.both were shot in center of the chest. sgt. mike ward of the media department of escambia sheriffs dept. will verify it.


http://http://www2.escambiaso.com/pressRelease/Two_Dead_After_Robbery.pdf

SouthernBoy said:

Look, I've made it clear enough that I just don't give a damn what you people carry. Carry a trash can or the side of your home for all I care. If your chosen carry gun happens to be a .22LR, that's your business. I could care less. And if you are unfortunate enough to find yourself having to use it, and it doesn't do as you expected.... oh well. Your life, not mine.

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Precisely the same thing I say -but about 9mm.....

This is an age old question/debate (at least since the late 1800's). The answer is there is no true answer - as everyone, and situation is different. Do I own 22s? You bet! I also own much, much larger weapons. The point is they are tools. Do you use a sledge hammer to drive a roofing nail, only if you have no other choice. 22lr have a place, particularly rifles in my honest opinion. They are light weight, very accurate and can be deadly at substantial distances. They also give you the option of carry 5x the number of rounds you would be able to hump in a larger caliber.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&fpart=1

I found this write up on a forum. Can not verify anything there.

I can however verify that in 1987 three policemen were killed in a shoot-out with suspects armed with what police thought were M16's due the rapid volume of fire they were receiving. It was later found that the suspects were using multiple Marlin semi-automatic rifles in 22lr. They killed the first contact officers who were attempting to serve a warrant & held over a hundred responding officers from local/state & federal agencies off for hours. Finally they gave up after being gassed multiple times. Location Bungalow Hotel on US12 in Inkster, MI. Just west of Detroit.

j4l said:

Precisely the same thing I say -but about 9mm.....

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I know you're a huge proponent of the venerated .45ACP and for very good reasons which you have shared with us on other threads. In fact, last year I bought a new M&P 45 4" barrel (which I had been considering) after reading some of your input. It's a fine gun and very well balanced with that size barrel.

My take on caliber, and I very much welcome your input with this, is that you should carry the most powerful caliber and load with which you can consistently, confidently, and effectively deliver rounds to target, time after time. If that happens to be a .45ACP, all is good. If it means a 9mm, than so be it. I also believe that as you go down in caliber (and therefore power), the design of specific defensive loads becomes more significant (not to say they're not anyway). In other words, there is going to be less wiggle room with the "lower" calibers. Still, if one can hit consistently with a 9mm, then that is likely to be their best bet.

There are some other factors to consider, too. Capacity, who else might have a need to use the gun, and cost of ammunition for practice. I'm afraid the caliber wars are never going to end and my approach is clear as far as I'm concerned. Listen to folks who have been there. Folks who have been in gun fights, have taken hits, and have shot people. Listen to them when they are willing to talk.

A few responders have mentioned shooting an assailant in the face with a .22LR. Here's some news. The BG is not likely to stand still and present his head for someone to shoot at, a rather small target and even smaller in the extreme stress of a deadly encounter. I just have to wonder if people are really thinking things out before they make such statements.

Oh well, please do offer up your take on all of this. This thread needs it.

SouthernBoy said:

I know you're a huge proponent of the venerated .45ACP and for very good reasons which you have shared with us on other threads. In fact, last year I bought a new M&P 45 4" barrel (which I had been considering) after reading some of your input. It's a fine gun and very well balanced with that size barrel.

My take on caliber, and I very much welcome your input with this, is that you should carry the most powerful caliber and load with which you can consistently, confidently, and effectively deliver rounds to target, time after time. If that happens to be a .45ACP, all is good. If it means a 9mm, than so be it. I also believe that as you go down in caliber (and therefore power), the design of specific defensive loads becomes more significant (not to say they're not anyway). In other words, there is going to be less wiggle room with the "lower" calibers. Still, if one can hit consistently with a 9mm, then that is likely to be their best bet.

There are some other factors to consider, too. Capacity, who else might have a need to use the gun, and cost of ammunition for practice. I'm afraid the caliber wars are never going to end and my approach is clear as far as I'm concerned. Listen to folks who have been there. Folks who have been in gun fights, have taken hits, and have shot people. Listen to them when they are willing to talk.

A few responders have mentioned shooting an assailant in the face with a .22LR. Here's some news. The BG is not likely to stand still and present his head for someone to shoot at, a rather small target and even smaller in the extreme stress of a deadly encounter. I just have to wonder if people are really thinking things out before they make such statements.

Oh well, please do offer up your take on all of this. This thread needs it.

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I agree with that bolded statement. My youngest daughter doesn't handle recoil well with anything other than a .22LR so if the SHTF she will be sporting either the Walterh P22 or the Sig522. My oldest can shoot .45acp and is fairly accurate. I have issue with people that are recoil sensitive when they go to .40S&W or to 9mm thinking the smaller the bullet the less its recoil should be. That assumption is wrong for those three calibers (and some others). Each recoil is different and I prefer the recoil of a .45acp over .40 or 9mm. The main concern is what gun are you shooting it out of with barrel lenght and weight of the gun coming into play. About the only caliber that I have shot that has minimal recoil is .22lr so I can recommend it to people that have severe limitations on what they can handle due to age (young or old) or other physical limitations. Is it the perfect round? Yes for them.

Capacity can be a big issue when choosing a caliber. Many choose 9mm or 40S&W over .45acp since they can typically have more rounds per magazine. My solution is to carry a 15+1 FNP-45 which meets my requirements of capacity while keeping my caliber choice. I had to agree that 20 rounds of 9mm sounded better than 8 rounds of .45acp so I started my capacity search. With .22LR guns I haven't seen many that offer magazines over 10 rounds for some reason. My Sig522 comes with 25 round magazines but the Walther P22 only has 10 rounders available. The Kelteck PMR is about the only higher capacity 22 (magnum) gun I have seen. So for a 22lr pistol I would say it is not the perfect gun based on capacity alone.

So all said and done, there are good arguments for and against every caliber. Each person has their own set of requirements, physical and desires. Anyone that makes me draw down on them should expect .45acp HST's arriving soon.

45acpForMe said:

I agree with that bolded statement. My youngest daughter doesn't handle recoil well with anything other than a .22LR so if the SHTF she will be sporting either the Walterh P22 or the Sig522. My oldest can shoot .45acp and is fairly accurate. I have issue with people that are recoil sensitive when they go to .40S&W or to 9mm thinking the smaller the bullet the less its recoil should be. That assumption is wrong for those three calibers (and some others). Each recoil is different and I prefer the recoil of a .45acp over .40 or 9mm. The main concern is what gun are you shooting it out of with barrel lenght and weight of the gun coming into play. About the only caliber that I have shot that has minimal recoil is .22lr so I can recommend it to people that have severe limitations on what they can handle due to age (young or old) or other physical limitations. Is it the perfect round? Yes for them.

Capacity can be a big issue when choosing a caliber. Many choose 9mm or 40S&W over .45acp since they can typically have more rounds per magazine. My solution is to carry a 15+1 FNP-45 which meets my requirements of capacity while keeping my caliber choice. I had to agree that 20 rounds of 9mm sounded better than 8 rounds of .45acp so I started my capacity search. With .22LR guns I haven't seen many that offer magazines over 10 rounds for some reason. My Sig522 comes with 25 round magazines but the Walther P22 only has 10 rounders available. The Kelteck PMR is about the only higher capacity 22 (magnum) gun I have seen. So for a 22lr pistol I would say it is not the perfect gun based on capacity alone.

So all said and done, there are good arguments for and against every caliber. Each person has their own set of requirements, physical and desires. Anyone that makes me draw down on them should expect .45acp HST's arriving soon.

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Yes sir, you and I are in line with this subject. I also employee the Federal HST for my .45ACP choice and in their 230gr +P configuration. Blanket statements tend to ignore personal limitations/abilities and this is where the real rub exists. When I carry a 9mm, my preferred load of recent choice is the Gold Dot 124gr +P followed by the HST in 124 or 147 grain weights and both in their +P loadings. For my .40's, I like the HST 165gr and the Gold Dot 165gr "special" load (#53970) with a leaning towards the HST 165gr. That load seems to have the best and most consistent expansion in tests and has a very good street record from what I have found.

I really enjoy discussing loads of the various handgun calibers with people who are apt and willing to offer civil discourse on the subject. I learn a lot from others in these areas and hate to see threads like this turn into p---ing contests. No one benefits when that happens.

45acpForMe said:

I agree with that bolded statement. My youngest daughter doesn't handle recoil well with anything other than a .22LR so if the SHTF she will be sporting either the Walterh P22 or the Sig522. My oldest can shoot .45acp and is fairly accurate. I have issue with people that are recoil sensitive when they go to .40S&W or to 9mm thinking the smaller the bullet the less its recoil should be. That assumption is wrong for those three calibers (and some others). Each recoil is different and I prefer the recoil of a .45acp over .40 or 9mm. The main concern is what gun are you shooting it out of with barrel lenght and weight of the gun coming into play. About the only caliber that I have shot that has minimal recoil is .22lr so I can recommend it to people that have severe limitations on what they can handle due to age (young or old) or other physical limitations. Is it the perfect round? Yes for them.

Capacity can be a big issue when choosing a caliber. Many choose 9mm or 40S&W over .45acp since they can typically have more rounds per magazine. My solution is to carry a 15+1 FNP-45 which meets my requirements of capacity while keeping my caliber choice. I had to agree that 20 rounds of 9mm sounded better than 8 rounds of .45acp so I started my capacity search. With .22LR guns I haven't seen many that offer magazines over 10 rounds for some reason. My Sig522 comes with 25 round magazines but the Walther P22 only has 10 rounders available. The Kelteck PMR is about the only higher capacity 22 (magnum) gun I have seen. So for a 22lr pistol I would say it is not the perfect gun based on capacity alone.
So all said and done, there are good arguments for and against every caliber. Each person has their own set of requirements, physical and desires. Anyone that makes me draw down on them should expect .45acp HST's arriving soon.

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Indeed to both the above- but. I really think comparing .45/.22 is a very apple-vs.-oranges thing. My comparison is vs. the 2 other more-common carry rounds -9mm/.40 (which, in actual "street" shootings are very much alike-ineffective,at best, most of the time). The bore and weight/mass of the rounds (above 180 grains) just seems to have worked best from 1873 until present, whether firing round nose lead, fmj ,OR hollow-points. 9mm-bore rounds can work ok, but only seem to really do so when they are pushed to magnum-level velocities (.357 SIG/.38 Super). But-when you begin doing that, you are getting into even HIGHER amounts of recoil, and higher pressures-sort of defeating the purpose to being able to hit well, and repeatedly.
That said, for the small rounds- .22/.25, when used within their limits, they can work great. I carry .25 as my BUG without hesitation. But-I have practiced exentsively with it enough. I put no small effort into making sure I can consistently place shots with it-rapid-fired,since it would be foolish to expect 1-shot or even 2-shot stops with rounds so small and light in weight. Also, one must make sure to try to aim for "soft" areas, as bones are likely to stop /deflect such small rounds, rather than be penetrated by them. Gut shots, etc. being the order of the day.
But, in my own tests around here, .25 auto has penetrated almost everything my .45s have, so go figure...

As far as "handling" or shooting well: I can see folks who are especially recoil-sensitive resorting to .22/.25/.32 -but 9mm/.40? just a completely backwards logic, there. I think a lot of folks go into shooting with a pre-disposed idea of .45 being "too much" before they've even bothered to try firing one.

As for capacity- unless you are in an area in which you anticipate facing multiple armed opponents on a regular basis, I just dont see the justification of going 9mm etc. vs. 45. You will be hard-pressed to find any accounts of anyone needing more than 2 hits with .45 (excluding multiple hits to extremities -hands, feet, etc.) to bring things to an end.