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Thread: Can A LEO take my weapon for "officer safety"

  1. #1
    Regular Member davestradamus's Avatar
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    Can A LEO take my weapon for "officer safety"

    I have heard reports and seen on the internet an LEO remove a weapon from a non-threatening and law abiding citizen for "officer safety". Is this seizure of personal property legal in VA?

    Thanks,
    David

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davestradamus View Post
    I have heard reports and seen on the internet an LEO remove a weapon from a non-threatening and law abiding citizen for "officer safety". Is this seizure of personal property legal in VA?

    Thanks,
    David
    Only if you're being detained or you consent to it.
    Never talk to a LEO.
    If they want to talk, they're up to something. Walk away.
    Watch the video here. He did it right:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-who-is-this-D

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    David....(Shouldn't use your real name. Goddard will put you on ....THE LIST)

    You should attend one of the get togethers in Lynchburg. JMelvin is there as well as others and are a Wealth of information.

    One of these days I'm going to get Dan Hawes down here for one of his seminars. Take what he says as the last word you need.

  4. #4
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    It is my understanding is: only if "detained" for suspicion of a CRIME having been, is being/about to be committed....(a traffic infraction is not a crime)

    (or you allow it) Only thing you need to say is: Am I being detained? No...walk away. Yes? ask what for, carry of a firearm is not a crime.

  5. #5
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    David....(Shouldn't use your real name. Goddard will put you on ....THE LIST)
    oh no .. what is "the list" ??? Are any of us safe? IN that case my son's name is really Fred, but he never responds when we call him that ...

  6. #6
    Regular Member davestradamus's Avatar
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    that is good to know. I am not willing to be a jerk to an LEO, (that Blacksburg gentleman in the video was not) but I want to know what authority they have if I am stopped.

    This forum is awesome!

    -David (real name, not scared)
    Last edited by davestradamus; 03-28-2012 at 08:10 PM.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    oh no .. what is "the list" ??? Are any of us safe? IN that case my son's name is really Fred, but he never responds when we call him that ...
    Hmmmm, "THE LIST" is hard to describe Scouser.

    I'll give an example but I can't really put in the proper accent in print. Imagine a trailer park woman or worse, a Bronx Yankee (I'll get it for that) saying something like:

    We noow a Cop and hee saaid "THEY were watchin them."

    Well, the mysterious council of "THEY" keep "THE LIST". The "LIST" contains information on people who need to be watched for some reason.

    Makes perfect sense, doesn't "IT"

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    If being arrested, certainly.

    If being detained for suspicion of having committed a crime, quite possibly.

    If being 'voluntarily encountered' then "I'm sorry, Officer Friendly, but I don't have voluntary conversations with armed adversarial parties. You can return my property and we can continue to have a friendly little chat, or you can return my property and I'll skip down the road on my merry fracking way. Now, since you're in charge, I guess you get to make that decision."

  9. #9
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Now I know that the cops need to have a legal reason to stop me before they can take my sidearm. No reason to stop = voluntary contact and that means they need my permission.. Not sure why they would ask if I am just going about my business.

    But it has been said above the cops cannot take it during a traffic stop. Can someone show me some proof of this?

    Because I am thinking that if I am being a total tool to the cop and giving him a rash of crap while we are talking about the stop and I get all aggressive... I suspect he might just want to take my gun and with good reason.

    What is the car is full of guys flying their colors and have MS 13 tats?? As long as they play nice can they keep their gun?

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    How can I read an entire thread and find not one cite as required by the forum rules?

    Didya all get lazy or something?

    The OPers question is answered by the grandaddy of the temporary detention cases: Terry v Ohio.

    Here is the relevant quote:

    We merely hold today that, where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where, in the course of investigating this behavior, he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him. Such a search is a reasonable search under the Fourth Amendment and any weapons seized may properly be introduced in evidence against the person from whom they were taken.

    The entire opinion can be read here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html

    And, lots of info is available here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...light=inchoate
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    ...

    One of these days I'm going to get Dan Hawes down here for one of his seminars. Take what he says as the last word you need.
    Please do, both JMELVIN and myself are willing to make/assist/aid in whatever arrangements are necessary.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    Please do, both JMELVIN and myself are willing to make/assist/aid in whatever arrangements are necessary.
    I mentioned it not too long ago and I think Dan is swamped now. So am I (I'm learning a new type of filmography, planting season, getting ready to start on Castle Doctrine, Etc).

    Hopefully we can work something up by the end of the summer.

  13. #13
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    I took Dan's (user) class up in NOVA last year and found it wonderfully informative. I did some work to find a place down here for him to set up in spring 2011, but then I got so swamped with work I couldn't follow up and I think he may have been busy as well with skidmark's escapades in Surry Co. I think our area would greatly benefit from such a seminar if we can work out the details.

    We have at least one restaurant (Monte Carlo) in town that could accomodate a group of 50 to 100 on a Saturday afternoon when they generally aren't open, but have people present preparing for the dinner service after lunch without much if any cost, provided we gave them some business. Monte Carlo has played host to various Tea Party events, and I think it was the dinner gathering place after VCDL's spring Lynchburg gathering in 2010. As Dan already knows there are hotels and such with conference rooms, but they may not fit the bill or they may be too expensive.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 03-29-2012 at 09:07 AM.

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    Please do, both JMELVIN and myself are willing to make/assist/aid in whatever arrangements are necessary.
    What I'd like to do is find someplace outside of Richmond that would be an easy drive from Southwest Va, Southern Va, Central Va and the Southern parts of the Shenandoah Valley.

    Time is the enemy though!

  15. #15
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Please, would Citizen and User address Reasonable Articulable Suspicion discussions between the arresting officer and his suspect. Is the officer in any way responsible to satisfy the suspect's curiosity, or is RAS/PC material to the officer, the states attorney and the judge?

    So often I hear hypotheticals here, "What's your RAS? Without PC you have no cause to interfere with me." If nothing else the right to silence has flown the coop.

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    Regular Member davestradamus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    If and when a cop takes your gun, it is usually for one reason, and one reason only..... to run the serial number and see if he can find a criminal charge on you. IMHO, a cop is much safer if a loaded weapon is not handled and handed back and forth.
    My thoughts exactly. If my weapon were seized, I would want the officer to unload it at my direction for safety. He/she has not been trained with my particular sidearm and may not be proficient in its usage.

  17. #17
    Regular Member paramedic's Avatar
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    Not too long ago I posted a thread on here about this very subject. A Prince William County LEO told me he was going to take my weapon due to officer safety. It would take a lot to tell the whole story, you can look it up on here, I am not sure how to do that. The short version is he wanted to ask me some questions, but wanted to take my weapon first, I refused. After about 10 minutes of back and forth, he finally realized he was not going to get my firearm unless he arrested me.

    The reason I had the knowledge and the will to resist him and not hand over my gun was because of what I have learned from reading various post in this forum, I have found that most of our regular posters are very knowledgeable, and give great advice.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Besides a Terry stop, cops can take your weapon if you are a passenger in a car whose driver has been arrested.* No citation because my brain is just barely functioning after a long day of dealing with a bureauacracy. (And apparently so are my fingers.)

    I'm sure someone else will pop in with the appropriate citation.

    stay safe.

    *There are conditions to that. If you are outside the vehicle and the weapon is inside, and you are far enough away (sometimes referred to as "beyond arm's reach") and/or the vehicle is locked (HINT) it does not apply. If are are inside the vehicle with the weapon, or outside where you can easily (in someone's mind) reach inside and lay hands on it, the cop can pull "officer safety".
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  19. #19
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic View Post
    Not too long ago I posted a thread on here about this very subject. A Prince William County LEO told me he was going to take my weapon due to officer safety. It would take a lot to tell the whole story, you can look it up on here, I am not sure how to do that. The short version is he wanted to ask me some questions, but wanted to take my weapon first, I refused. After about 10 minutes of back and forth, he finally realized he was not going to get my firearm unless he arrested me.

    The reason I had the knowledge and the will to resist him and not hand over my gun was because of what I have learned from reading various post in this forum, I have found that most of our regular posters are very knowledgeable, and give great advice.
    Is this it http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...73#post1611173

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic View Post
    Without going into too much detail, I recently had the occasion of local LE being called to my residence(let preface by saying they should have not been called in the first place and they told the person as much). My wife and I had just returned from errands, so both were still OCing. We learned from my adult son that LE was on the way. Upon their arrival I answered the door, when I opened the door I had to shoo the dog away (a very large German Shepard). I invited the officer to come in, he then looked at my side and asked if I would step out to his car to speak with him. I had no reason not to so I did. When we reached the cruiser he asked me to put my hands on the hood of his car, I looked at him with some disbelief and asked him why(the situation he was called for did not even involve me). He said, sir I do not no you and you are clearly aggitated, for my safety I am going to disarm you. I asked what made him think I was upset, he said I was yelling when I answered the door, I told him I was telling the dog to move out of his way, and that I was not upset. I then said that he did not have any probable cause to confiscate my weapon. He continued to say that he thought I was upset, I said I am starting to get upset being treated like a criminal. He tried repeating the "officer safety" speech. I told him without placing me under arrest, he had no cause to take my weapon. After several minutes of both of us repeating the same statements over and over, he finally asked if I would just mind answering some questtions, I told him I would have done that in the first place, I offered to sit on the hood of his car, and even said I would keep my strong side to him and visible. So after about 5 minutes of useless banter, he asked me about the situation, and I told him that I had no Idea since I had just arrived home about 1 minuted before he arrived. He was a little frustrated about that and just turned and walked away from me back to the house.


    Before all of you ask, I did not have a voice recorder.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Please, would Citizen and User address Reasonable Articulable Suspicion discussions between the arresting officer and his suspect. Is the officer in any way responsible to satisfy the suspect's curiosity, or is RAS/PC material to the officer, the states attorney and the judge?

    So often I hear hypotheticals here, "What's your RAS? Without PC you have no cause to interfere with me." If nothing else the right to silence has flown the coop.
    I can't really cough up cites for all the cases that address RAS, the number must approach 30-50. Courts have written reams on this-or-that set of circumstances amounting to sufficient reasonable suspicion to involuntarily detain someone.

    I can say that in all my reading, I've never seen one single court opinion requiring a cop to reveal all or part of his suspicion to the detainee, or even the circumstances that gave rise to that suspicion, meaning what he saw that made him suspicious. I'm not a lawyer, but I've read more than my sheeple share of 4th Amendment (search and seizure) court cases. I'm betting that if there were such a case, I'd have come across it or a citation to it in another case.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  21. #21
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Thank you. Maybe your statement is an adequate stake through the heart of that meme. We'll see.

  22. #22
    Regular Member nemo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    One of these days I'm going to get Dan Hawes down here for one of his seminars. Take what he says as the last word you need.
    I had an agreement with Dan, from back in December, to get him here in Winchester in mid-March, but he got busy, as has been stated. He has given me a rain check, but that is all.

    That is to say: I gots first dibs (I hope).

  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Hypothetical:

    If you are being questioned by a LEO (as usual, you are not sure if it is consensual or not, because they are trained to make it unclear to you), and the LEO asks you to hand over your gun.

    If you say something to this effect: "Officer, I do not wish to hand you my gun, I do not consent to your taking it, but if you insist on taking it, I will not resist your efforts to do so in any way."

    Would it be accurate to add on to the end of your sentence to the LEO, "If you do take my gun against my wishes, you certainly realize that will be an assault on my person, and I will pursue all legal remedies at my disposal as a result of that assault."

    All very politely of course.

    Thoughts?

    TFred

  24. #24
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Hypothetical:

    If you are being questioned by a LEO (as usual, you are not sure if it is consensual or not, because they are trained to make it unclear to you), and the LEO asks you to hand over your gun.

    All very politely of course. Thoughts? TFred
    If there is any reasonable suspicion of detention, then you are being detained. I believe merely using his big-boy command voice, like he was trained to do at the criminal academy, is sufficient. Force majeure is a certainty - two or more. Tactical positioning. Loud hailers. Guns drawn.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    I had an agreement with Dan, from back in December, to get him here in Winchester in mid-March, but he got busy, as has been stated. He has given me a rain check, but that is all.

    That is to say: I gots first dibs (I hope).
    No problem Nemo. Hopefully I'll get on his dance card.

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