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Thread: List of Counties/Cities in violation of KRS 65.870

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    I think what speaks volumes to our public officials is the possibility of a lawsuit. I would stress that by their actions, they would be opening themselves up to CIVIL liability and would stand to lose thousands and now that HB 500 has passed, they are opening themselves up to CRIMINAL liability--especially if you have made them aware of the law and they ignore it.
    When I first start one of these things with a new city, especially if that city's officials have not taken a hard position, I try to express my desire to "save the city a big loss in a lawsuit". I try to come off as really concerned for the taxpayers and often refer to people who look for this type of mistake so they can take advantage of it for an "easy buck". If they aren't buying any of that and still don't what to change anything my personna can change to suit the circumstances. I think that in this situation that might be a good position to start from. "I'm here to help your city". Starting off in a confrontational manner will usually get the same response from the other side. Later on in the discussions you can always fall back on the idea that you "only came here to help you and you have refused all my offers of assistance." Of course, the mention of a lawsuit sends a unmistakable message. In fact, most of these city officials know a lawsuit is very unlikely. They are threatened with them constantly and few actually come about. A smaller community like Owingsville may not be so enlightened.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I'm printing out a packet to take with me to present to him. Like I said, another OCDO member has agreed to come with me with his own paperwork. Which I'm sure is better than mine) If he is able to make it I will let him present/or have me present his paperwork. If in case that the other member isnt able to make it due to last minute change of plans, I will have my stuff ready. I think I could cover the basics but if the mayor wants to get real, real in depth with it I may need some help...like I said, I'm a rookie.....so I hope he can show..if not I understand and willhandle it the best I can.
    I'm sure you will do fine. Go get them.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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  3. #78
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I attempted to set through the Lawrence County fiscal court meeting to see if they attempted to change their ordinance at all. I was removed from the meeting flanked by the sheriff and a deputy (woman I never seen before wearing a polo shirt with the sheriff emblem).

    He said "You do know HB 161 didn't pass don't you?"
    "161?"
    "The one that regulates open carry."

    I told him that we didn't need 161 because we already had 65.870 (he had the printed out) and said I was still in violation. This does not look like it is going to go easy. I didn't have time to turn my recorder (phone) on.

    He said something about an AGO about "house rules", but would not show me that paper for long. He said 65.870 refers ONLY to peoples HOUSES and do not include government buildings. He continued to say that it is illegal to carry into the sheriff dept. and the WHOLE courthouse (County attorney's office, Clerks office, etc.)
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I attempted to set through the Lawrence County fiscal court meeting to see if they attempted to change their ordinance at all. I was removed from the meeting flanked by the sheriff and a deputy (woman I never seen before wearing a polo shirt with the sheriff emblem).

    He said "You do know HB 161 didn't pass don't you?"
    "161?"
    "The one that regulates open carry."

    I told him that we didn't need 161 because we already had 65.870 (he had the printed out) and said I was still in violation. This does not look like it is going to go easy. I didn't have time to turn my recorder (phone) on.

    He said something about an AGO about "house rules", but would not show me that paper for long. He said 65.870 refers ONLY to peoples HOUSES and do not include government buildings. He continued to say that it is illegal to carry into the sheriff dept. and the WHOLE courthouse (County attorney's office, Clerks office, etc.)
    I have been googling but cant find any good details on HB 161. Can someone explain what this is?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I have been googling but cant find any good details on HB 161. Can someone explain what this is?
    That bill was scraped in the house. Didn't get very far.

  6. #81
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comm View Post
    That bill was scraped in the house. Didn't get very far.
    What did the bill say? the Sheriff seemed to think it was important because he brought it up. How does this failing affect KRS 65.870 and HB 500?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  7. #82
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    There will be more posted. I have had my rights violated by the county attorney, Mike Hogan, and the sheriff of Lawrence County, Garrett Roberts. I dare not say much on this forum because Mike is already VERY pissed off because of previous post they found on here. I deleted some of my post to keep this from turning into a larger **** storm. I am going to get it touch with an attorney.

    KY may post a recording of our "talk"- We may call it "Hogan's Yelling Match" as it would be appropriated.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  8. #83
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    There will be more posted. I have had my rights violated by the county attorney, Mike Hogan, and the sheriff of Lawrence County, Garrett Roberts. I dare not say much on this forum because Mike is already VERY pissed off because of previous post they found on here. I deleted some of my post to keep this from turning into a larger **** storm. I am going to get it touch with an attorney.

    KY may post a recording of our "talk"- We may call it "Hogan's Yelling Match" as it would be appropriated.
    Can you explain to me what the sheriff meant when we mentioned HB 161 I think it was. I would like to know what he was talking about. You can PM me if you like. I have a meeting with the owingsville amyor in 12 minutes so I gotta go for now..But I would like to learn more about your incident....And more so I would like to know what in the hell HB 161 was???
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  9. #84
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Try SB 161, Glockster mentioned something about it was an SB bill. He said it had something to do with open carry. I would call it irrelevant to anything at this point. We already have 65.870, 237.110, 237.115, AGO opinion 96-40, HB 500 to take effect soon, and other things.

    I was ejected out of a OPEN meeting for violating an illegal ordinance that they have been TOLD is illegal. I was going to try to fix this with them.
    I was LIED to by public officials.
    I was threatened arrest for OCing in the sheriff dept.
    I was threatened arrest for OCing in the courthouse (not part of the court rooms or even the court annex)
    I was TOLD not to come back to the courthouse with my firearm.
    I was talked to like a child.
    I was even ACCUSED of libel.

    I feel like my rights were trampled on by public officials with NO authority to govern me in that way. If I was in violations of anything legal I would have been arrested and tried. Hogan was that visibly irate. I feel that this shows corruption in Lawrence county.

    Also, I wish you all of luck with your endeavors. I hope they go better than ours.
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 04-16-2012 at 12:38 PM.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    What did the bill say? the Sheriff seemed to think it was important because he brought it up. How does this failing affect KRS 65.870 and HB 500?
    OK SB 161 didn't pass also, but here is the summary of that bill

    Amend KRS 65.870 which limits cities and counties from having local firearms ordinances to expand the units of government and public agencies covered, expand limitations on local action, and provide that parties may sue to enjoin violations.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Try SB 161, Glockster mentioned something about it was an SB bill. He said it had something to do with open carry. I would call it irrelevant to anything at this point. We already have 65.870, 237.110, 237.115, AGO opinion 96-40, HB 500 to take effect soon, and other things.

    I was ejected out of a OPEN meeting for violating an illegal ordinance that they have been TOLD is illegal. I was going to try to fix this with them.
    I was LIED to by public officials.
    I was threatened arrest for OCing in the sheriff dept.
    I was threatened arrest for OCing in the courthouse (not part of the court rooms or even the court annex)
    I was TOLD not to come back to the courthouse with my firearm.
    I was talked to like a child.
    I was even ACCUSED of libel.

    I feel like my rights were trampled on by public officials with NO authority to govern me in that way. If I was in violations of anything legal I would have been arrested and tried. Hogan was that visibly irate. I feel that this shows corruption in Lawrenc

    Also, I wish you all of luck with your endeavors. I hope they go better than ours.
    I wanted to give an update on the city of Owingsville. I just left a meeting with the mayor over KRS 65.780, HB 500, Letter from the KLC as well as their own ordiances. He seemed interested to learn and was eager to ask question. Very polite in the meeting and didnt take a hard stance. He got hung up a few times because his paperwork addressed concealed weapons in city buildings but quickly realized that open carry and concealed carry are two different things and are handled differently. He stated that he wasnt anti-gun but just "wanted to do what was right". He thanked me time after time for bringing this to his attention and stated that he would have the city attorney look into it even though he stated "its in plain english and very clear" He even stopped me on my way out the door and got my Email address so he could send me the attorney response. Hope the attorney can read and understand as well as the mayor seemed to. As far as 09jisaac, sorry you got treated that way. But I do respect that you are continuing the good fight and hope you dont back down. I hope you find legal relief and all the support that you will need. Sorry that you're the one taking the beating right now but I'm so glad to see our rights are being stood up for.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  12. #87
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    I have started a new thread on this issue, if anyone wishes to post about it there. Wait until I post the audio, everyone's jaw will drop!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    As far as 09jisaac, sorry you got treated that way. But I do respect that you are continuing the good fight and hope you dont back down. I hope you find legal relief and all the support that you will need. Sorry that you're the one taking the beating right now but I'm so glad to see our rights are being stood up for.
    It wasn't just me, KYGlockster was there too. And he doesn't have much much of a dog in this fight. He was doing it as a favor to me.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  14. #89
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    It wasn't just me, KYGlockster was there too. And he doesn't have much much of a dog in this fight. He was doing it as a favor to me.
    I just found out that he was there too. I support you both. Wish there were more I could do to help you both with this battle.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I just found out that he was there too. I support you both. Wish there were more I could do to help you both with this battle.
    Are you an attorney by any chance? Just kidding. Do not worry too much about our battle. You, too, are assisting in restoring rights. It is just two battles of the same war. I do not like how we can be tried with ANY law but government officials are not even held to their own laws.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Are you an attorney by any chance? Just kidding. Do not worry too much about our battle. You, too, are assisting in restoring rights. It is just two battles of the same war. I do not like how we can be tried with ANY law but government officials are not even held to their own laws.
    I wish I were...well..sorta.. You and KyGlockster kind of gave me survivers guilt..haha.. I was so excited to post that I changed the mayors mind and made a difference, and you two were nearly sent to the elctric chair..
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  17. #92
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Don't count on it until it happens. We thought we had the judge executive on our side (not saying we don't still) but the sheriff and CA are sticking to enforcing this illegal ordinance.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Don't count on it until it happens. We thought we had the judge executive on our side (not saying we don't still) but the sheriff and CA are sticking to enforcing this illegal ordinance.
    Can you gives us some details of the ordinance? Have you ever seen the complete text of this ordinance? Where is it written? When was it passed? Who voted for or against it? Are any of the people who voted against it still in office? Can you post a copy of it?
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









  19. #94
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...awrence+County

    I already posted it but this is a reminder. It was an ordinance that started out good "General assembly gives us the authority ban concealed carry in our buildings" then it goes on to prohibit all "deadly weapons" on their "premises". I took this to mean all firearms whether "concealed or otherwise" (actual text I think) in their buildings and on their grounds. It was passed in '96 and the section who voted for it was left blank. I will go back and get another copy of it. It says who was on the fiscal court at the time. I know that Osborn wasn't in office.

    It is 96-006, I found it in the Circuit Clerks file room.
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 04-17-2012 at 11:29 AM.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Don't count on it until it happens. We thought we had the judge executive on our side (not saying we don't still) but the sheriff and CA are sticking to enforcing this illegal ordinance.
    True. The city attorney may fill the mayors head with all kinds of "this dont apply to us because....." I'm still waiting on the email from the city attorney to see just what his take on this is. But I think KRS page of "do's and dont's" really got his attention. Guess time will tell.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...awrence+County

    I already posted it but this is a reminder. It was an ordinance that started out good "General assembly gives us the authority ban concealed carry in our buildings" then it goes on to prohibit all "deadly weapons" on their "premises". I took this to mean all firearms whether "concealed or otherwise" (actual text I think) in their buildings and on their grounds. It was passed in '96 and the section who voted for it was left blank. I will go back and get another copy of it. It says who was on the fiscal court at the time. I know that Osborn wasn't in office.

    It is 96-006, I found it in the Circuit Clerks file room.
    Thanks for that info. The minutes of the Fiscal Court meeting will be available from the county clerks office, the vote must have been recorded in those minutes. If you are interested, you can get those minutes. I still can't find the ordinance anywhere, but it doesn't really matter, that wording sounds familiar, I've heard it before. Its just best to have the exact wording to show people when they ask, "Well, what are they doing that is illegal? What does their ordinance say, exactly?" From what you say it sounds very similar to Bardstown's ordinance and similar to Pikeville's original ordinance. Can you get a copy of it?
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Thanks for that info. The minutes of the Fiscal Court meeting will be available from the county clerks office, the vote must have been recorded in those minutes. If you are interested, you can get those minutes. I still can't find the ordinance anywhere, but it doesn't really matter, that wording sounds familiar, I've heard it before. Its just best to have the exact wording to show people when they ask, "Well, what are they doing that is illegal? What does their ordinance say, exactly?" From what you say it sounds very similar to Bardstown's ordinance and similar to Pikeville's original ordinance. Can you get a copy of it?
    I had a copy of it but it was misplaced on KYGlockster and my 1st visit. I don't know where it ended up. But I can get plenty of copies of it. I was going to stop and get some copies of it anyways. If you want I can scan it and send it to you via email or whatever.

    It was post #44 in the link I just sent.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Try SB 161, Glockster mentioned something about it was an SB bill. He said it had something to do with open carry. I would call it irrelevant to anything at this point. We already have 65.870, 237.110, 237.115, AGO opinion 96-40, HB 500 to take effect soon, and other things.

    I was ejected out of a OPEN meeting for violating an illegal ordinance that they have been TOLD is illegal. I was going to try to fix this with them.
    I was LIED to by public officials.
    I was threatened arrest for OCing in the sheriff dept.
    I was threatened arrest for OCing in the courthouse (not part of the court rooms or even the court annex)
    I was TOLD not to come back to the courthouse with my firearm.
    I was talked to like a child.
    I was even ACCUSED of libel.

    I feel like my rights were trampled on by public officials with NO authority to govern me in that way. If I was in violations of anything legal I would have been arrested and tried. Hogan was that visibly irate. I feel that this shows corruption in Lawrence county.

    Also, I wish you all of luck with your endeavors. I hope they go better than ours.
    I was reading HB 500 and changes to 65.870 and it appears in order to file a lawsuit you will have to show harm. I do not know if the harm 09jisaac received by being removed from an open meeting can be used, because it happened before the bill was in effect. I believe Ex Post Facto would shield them in this event. If it can not be used, you will have to attend another meeting, be denied admittance, then you will be able to establish harm. Your standing to file the suit will be that you are a Kentucky citizen with the right to attend any public meeting and able to do so while open carrying in accordance with Commonwealths Constitution, and your ability to exercise your right was taken by a law enforcement officer while under the color of authority. With fees and expert witness testimony available for recovery, and that pesky 42USC1983 hanging over their head, I cannot believe you will not persuade them to repair the ordinance. I am impressed with your hard work.
    Speed is fine
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  24. #99
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post

    I was reading HB 500 and changes to 65.870 and it appears in order to file a lawsuit you will have to show harm. I do not know if the harm 09jisaac received by being removed from an open meeting can be used, because it happened before the bill was in effect. I believe Ex Post Facto would shield them in this event. If it can not be used, you will have to attend another meeting, be denied admittance, then you will be able to establish harm. Your standing to file the suit will be that you are a Kentucky citizen with the right to attend any public meeting and able to do so while open carrying in accordance with Commonwealths Constitution, and your ability to exercise your right was taken by a law enforcement officer while under the color of authority. With fees and expert witness testimony available for recovery, and that pesky 42USC1983 hanging over their head, I cannot believe you will not persuade them to repair the ordinance. I am impressed with your hard work.
    So are you saying that if HB 500 was already in effet this could be a diffrent story? HB 500 goes into effect in july, correct?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  25. #100
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I do not think I will have any more trouble fixing the ordinance, but until then I am being denied my right to carry a firearm in the offices in the court. I was even prohibited from carrying, openly, into the sheriff department. All this bothers me, but I do think I have plenty of grounds for official misconduct even without this.

    The Sheriff, by his own admission (recorded I think) received all the information that KYglockster gave to the Judge Executive. This was more than enough to prove that the ordinance used against me was highly illegal. His reasoning for enforcing it as legal was a single paragraph in an Attorney General opinion, "Home rule" (99-10 I think). This was VERY selective reading. "Home Rule" according to that opinion "(1) A city may exercise any power and perform any function within its boundaries, in-cluding the power of eminent domain in accordance with the provisions of the Eminent Domain Act of Kentucky, that is in furtherance of a public purpose of the city and not in conflict with a constitutional provision or statute."

    This was taken straight from the opinion I have reason to believe he cited. He showed it to me but it was just a glimpse.

    The county Attorney thinks that because he is an elected official if he "tells" you to do something you better follow. He seems to forget that he is a public servant, not a public master. He gets ALL his official authority from the people through the general assembly. He has no authority to command anything not specifically granted to him. Like telling me I cannot carry in the courthouse anymore.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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