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Thread: List of Counties/Cities in violation of KRS 65.870

  1. #76
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Thanks for that info. The minutes of the Fiscal Court meeting will be available from the county clerks office, the vote must have been recorded in those minutes. If you are interested, you can get those minutes. I still can't find the ordinance anywhere, but it doesn't really matter, that wording sounds familiar, I've heard it before. Its just best to have the exact wording to show people when they ask, "Well, what are they doing that is illegal? What does their ordinance say, exactly?" From what you say it sounds very similar to Bardstown's ordinance and similar to Pikeville's original ordinance. Can you get a copy of it?
    I had a copy of it but it was misplaced on KYGlockster and my 1st visit. I don't know where it ended up. But I can get plenty of copies of it. I was going to stop and get some copies of it anyways. If you want I can scan it and send it to you via email or whatever.

    It was post #44 in the link I just sent.
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  2. #77
    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Try SB 161, Glockster mentioned something about it was an SB bill. He said it had something to do with open carry. I would call it irrelevant to anything at this point. We already have 65.870, 237.110, 237.115, AGO opinion 96-40, HB 500 to take effect soon, and other things.

    I was ejected out of a OPEN meeting for violating an illegal ordinance that they have been TOLD is illegal. I was going to try to fix this with them.
    I was LIED to by public officials.
    I was threatened arrest for OCing in the sheriff dept.
    I was threatened arrest for OCing in the courthouse (not part of the court rooms or even the court annex)
    I was TOLD not to come back to the courthouse with my firearm.
    I was talked to like a child.
    I was even ACCUSED of libel.

    I feel like my rights were trampled on by public officials with NO authority to govern me in that way. If I was in violations of anything legal I would have been arrested and tried. Hogan was that visibly irate. I feel that this shows corruption in Lawrence county.

    Also, I wish you all of luck with your endeavors. I hope they go better than ours.
    I was reading HB 500 and changes to 65.870 and it appears in order to file a lawsuit you will have to show harm. I do not know if the harm 09jisaac received by being removed from an open meeting can be used, because it happened before the bill was in effect. I believe Ex Post Facto would shield them in this event. If it can not be used, you will have to attend another meeting, be denied admittance, then you will be able to establish harm. Your standing to file the suit will be that you are a Kentucky citizen with the right to attend any public meeting and able to do so while open carrying in accordance with Commonwealths Constitution, and your ability to exercise your right was taken by a law enforcement officer while under the color of authority. With fees and expert witness testimony available for recovery, and that pesky 42USC1983 hanging over their head, I cannot believe you will not persuade them to repair the ordinance. I am impressed with your hard work.
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  3. #78
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post

    I was reading HB 500 and changes to 65.870 and it appears in order to file a lawsuit you will have to show harm. I do not know if the harm 09jisaac received by being removed from an open meeting can be used, because it happened before the bill was in effect. I believe Ex Post Facto would shield them in this event. If it can not be used, you will have to attend another meeting, be denied admittance, then you will be able to establish harm. Your standing to file the suit will be that you are a Kentucky citizen with the right to attend any public meeting and able to do so while open carrying in accordance with Commonwealths Constitution, and your ability to exercise your right was taken by a law enforcement officer while under the color of authority. With fees and expert witness testimony available for recovery, and that pesky 42USC1983 hanging over their head, I cannot believe you will not persuade them to repair the ordinance. I am impressed with your hard work.
    So are you saying that if HB 500 was already in effet this could be a diffrent story? HB 500 goes into effect in july, correct?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  4. #79
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I do not think I will have any more trouble fixing the ordinance, but until then I am being denied my right to carry a firearm in the offices in the court. I was even prohibited from carrying, openly, into the sheriff department. All this bothers me, but I do think I have plenty of grounds for official misconduct even without this.

    The Sheriff, by his own admission (recorded I think) received all the information that KYglockster gave to the Judge Executive. This was more than enough to prove that the ordinance used against me was highly illegal. His reasoning for enforcing it as legal was a single paragraph in an Attorney General opinion, "Home rule" (99-10 I think). This was VERY selective reading. "Home Rule" according to that opinion "(1) A city may exercise any power and perform any function within its boundaries, in-cluding the power of eminent domain in accordance with the provisions of the Eminent Domain Act of Kentucky, that is in furtherance of a public purpose of the city and not in conflict with a constitutional provision or statute."

    This was taken straight from the opinion I have reason to believe he cited. He showed it to me but it was just a glimpse.

    The county Attorney thinks that because he is an elected official if he "tells" you to do something you better follow. He seems to forget that he is a public servant, not a public master. He gets ALL his official authority from the people through the general assembly. He has no authority to command anything not specifically granted to him. Like telling me I cannot carry in the courthouse anymore.
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  5. #80
    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    So are you saying that if HB 500 was already in effet this could be a diffrent story? HB 500 goes into effect in july, correct?
    Yes it would be different. The harm was committed when removed from the meeting, when no crime had been committed. Nothing in our constitution is more sacred than our ability to face our elected officials and air a grievance. But as noted, in July, when HB 500 rewrites KRS 65.870, then there will be teeth that will leave a mark when laws concerning the carrying of firearms, in property owned by the Commonwealth or municipalaties, are violated.
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  6. #81
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    He threatened to arrest me. I did not have the privilege of finding him after I was escorted out until KYGlockster and I was forced to the sheriff department. The County Attorney Mike Hogan ordered us to follow him to the sheriff department where he could press charges against us. There was where he was yelling at us. Neither the Sheriff or the CA would accept our documentation of the laws. Apparently they already knew what we had and would not accept that Kentucky Law trump a county ordinance.

    Today I bought a microphone for my Ipod and an password protected recorder app. I will try to get to the courthouse tomorrow to get copies of this ordinance and I will record the whole time. Unfortunately I do think that I will not be carrying a firearm as I have been threatened detainment if I do.

    I think I am going to go to the Judge Executive's office and ask him to up this issue on the agenda for the next fiscal court meeting. The meeting is the third monday every month. The next one should be the 21st of May, I would encourage everyone to show up.

    Edit: Also, I really do appreciate all the advice and support. This is mostly about my rights and rights of people going into the lawrence county courthouse. This effects most of you very little. Yet I feel that I have support from all of you.
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 04-17-2012 at 10:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I believe the language that I emphasised in your post is from AGO 93-71. AGO 93-71 was about a city of the first class (Louisville) regulating firearms by requiring residents to register their firearms with the city and report any firearm sales. Of course, the answer was, "no, you can't". Very selective reading. Again, this is intentional obfuscation. What does he say will happen if you do return to a CITY building while armed?
    This is a county building, (county courthouse with public offices), and we both were threatened with arrest. He claims as long as this ordinance is on the books, he can arrest us for violation! Again, he certainly does not know the law very well, and I intend to inform the voters of Lawrence co. of this fact.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 04-18-2012 at 02:32 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  8. #83
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    So I spoke to my uncle about the cc ordinance in Morehead, he said he didnt realize the law had been ammended. He seemed concerned about it and willing to bring it before the council, so get your political guns loaded and have at em boys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cgm2414 View Post
    So I spoke to my uncle about the cc ordinance in Morehead, he said he didnt realize the law had been ammended. He seemed concerned about it and willing to bring it before the council, so get your political guns loaded and have at em boys.
    The law was amended.....but the same law has revoked their right to govern firearms since '75 I think? I figure the new penalties will make every local govt. decide to change these ordinances once they realize someone is watching. Wonder what guys like gutshot who have been doing this for tens of years will do when there isn't anymore to do? Haha, j/k, the fight will never be over, 220 years of history has proven that!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  10. #85
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    I received this email from the mayor of Owingsville today. If you recall, I spoke with him Monday (4/9) about the signs he planned on posting at city hall. Earl is the city attorney and of course Gary is the mayor. I still dont think they understand that banning concealed only applies to buildings themselves and not open city property. But I dont feel that they will even push banning concealed. I would guess (but could be wrong) that this issue is closed. Am I curious, what "action to get that bill amended to include both in the future" is he speaking of?



    Chris,

    I heard back from Earl and it is what we thought the other day. Concealed firearms can be banned on city owned property but not openly carried firearms. He said there is action to get that bill amended to include both in the future but nothing at this time. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. We never stop learning because everything always keeps changing around us.

    Have a good day!

    Gary
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  11. #86
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I think he is talking about there is plans to ban both open carry and concealed carrying in the future. I would kindly point out that they do have the authority to ban concealed carry in their buildings but not regulate open carry at all. Also, some information that may be helpful. Inform him that concealed carry is already prohibited in legislative meetings so banning concealed carry will do very little. Urge him to try to abolish the whole thing, not to just amend it to the correct language. He should know that carrying concealed does not hold ANY weight of law if you can legally carry, just not concealed. All they can do is bar you from entering you or eject you. Continue to tell him that since this is nothing anyways he can come out looking 2A/rights as a whole friendly just by abolish this little ordinance.


    I don't understand what these people think they're doing. "For the safety of everyone" is usually their stated motive. Because my shirt covering my firearm makes in more deadly than having it in plain view. Those wishing to harm anyone would think twice if they could be asked to leave a meeting. You understanding what I am saying? The penalties are already a slap on the wrist, an (attempted) murder or whatever will mean very little to any disgruntle citizen.
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    I would inform him "concealed firearms" can Be banned "inside buildings" and nowhere else! He seems to believe they can ban concealed firearms on all city property and that is incorrect. I would also inform him that we just had firearm preemption strongly strengthened with near unanimous support in the senate and house, and that if there was a bill introduced to ban OC on property, that it would never pass, and would not pass constitutional muster.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  13. #88
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I think he is talking about there is plans to ban both open carry and concealed carrying in the future. I would kindly point out that they do have the authority to ban concealed carry in their buildings but not regulate open carry at all. Also, some information that may be helpful. Inform him that concealed carry is already prohibited in legislative meetings so banning concealed carry will do very little. Urge him to try to abolish the whole thing, not to just amend it to the correct language. He should know that carrying concealed does not hold ANY weight of law if you can legally carry, just not concealed. All they can do is bar you from entering you or eject you. Continue to tell him that since this is nothing anyways he can come out looking 2A/rights as a whole friendly just by abolish this little ordinance.


    I don't understand what these people think they're doing. "For the safety of everyone" is usually their stated motive. Because my shirt covering my firearm makes in more deadly than having it in plain view. Those wishing to harm anyone would think twice if they could be asked to leave a meeting. You understanding what I am saying? The penalties are already a slap on the wrist, an (attempted) murder or whatever will mean very little to any disgruntle citizen.
    Thats where my case is a little different from yours. There is no actual ordiance. He just bought some "no guns allowed" signs and planned to put them up. One of the signs is at city hall in a closet away from public view. The other is a the police dept. and its not actually "mounted". It is proped up on some in house mailboxes inside of the PD. It is the first thing you see when you walk in. Not sure if it's even legal to display it like that. But I will check back later to see if they have removed it. As far as the CC....I'll probably wait to pursue that until/if they try to do a ban on CC. He made the comment that one reason that he wanted to ban OC in city hall is to eliminate "intimidation". I explained to him that a big burly man with a hateful look on his face could be intimidating, but actually be as harmless as can be. I also pointed out that criminals with intent to murder do not OC and do NOT care what a sign says. We discussed if a person had it on his mind to come shoot up city hall that the "no guns allowed" would only disarm good people that could defend themselves or others if a situation like this did happen. I think he sees now that if you think these signs will keep a gun weilding nut job from breaking the law, then you have a strong case of false security. You say CC is already prohibited in legislative meetings...educate me...is a city meeting considered a "legislative meeting?" And to KYGlockster...That was kinda confusing me about "plans in the future" Considering HB 500 kicks off in July, I didnt understand why another law would be coming in right behind that one that was completly different. So you think the current laws will stand for a long time?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  14. #89
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    KRS 237.110(16)(d) Any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district; or any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a member of the body, holding a concealed deadly weapon license, from carrying a concealed deadly weapon at a meeting of the body of which he or she is a member;

    I guess that is what I should have said.
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    We have had total state preemption of firearm regulation for over 30 years, and if you noticed by the votes on HB500, (over 70 co-sponsors and a 88-8 vote in the house, and 34-2 vote in the senate), firearm preemption is not going anywhere, and the legislature has our interests in mind.

    When these people try saying they want to ban OC because it intimidates, or because of safety, always go back to the same single issue: It is against the law to do so! Doesn't matter what their "feelings" are, it is the LAW.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  16. #91
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=09jisaac;1740362]KRS 237.110(16)(d) Any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district; or any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a member of the body, holding a concealed deadly weapon license, from carrying a concealed deadly weapon at a meeting of the body of which he or she is a member;

    I guess that is what I should have said.[/QUOTE

    Forgive my stupidy...but still a little confused. Is this saying that if an official has a CC license then he or she can CC at these meetings? And as far as a city council meeting.... If they do NOT have a "no concealed weapons" sign posted can you CC in a city council meeting or is there a law that bans this with or without a sign?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  17. #92
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    We have had total state preemption of firearm regulation for over 30 years, and if you noticed by the votes on HB500, (over 70 co-sponsors and a 88-8 vote in the house, and 34-2 vote in the senate), firearm preemption is not going anywhere, and the legislature has our interests in mind.

    When these people try saying they want to ban OC because it intimidates, or because of safety, always go back to the same single issue: It is against the law to do so! Doesn't matter what their "feelings" are, it is the LAW.
    I agree...the laws the law if you like it or not. Is there a website you go to to get your stats like "votes on HB500, (over 70 co-sponsors and a 88-8 vote in the house, and 34-2 vote in the senate?" I feel I need to be more political than I have been in the past. To be honest I have never really put much thought into polictics but I want to back the pro 2A canidates. Just trying to learn...........
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  18. #93
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    That is very good news. You are probably right, a lot of places lose there desire to ban CC when they find out they can't ban OC. What is the sense of it? You have done a great job and it sounds like you have some reasonable public officials that just got started on something they did not understand. That action to amend the law does not exist and even if it did, it won't happen. There is no support for such a measure in either chamber of the General Assembly. The General Assembly has adjourned for the year. They will reconvene in January 2013. I have it on very good authority that the Ky League of Cities does not want to take on that fight and there is little support for it on their Executive Board. Does he know that the city can only ban CC in buildings? Educate him some more if he does not.
    Great info. I know that CC can only be banned from city buildings, but to be honest I probably wont push anymore unless they try to ban CC on ALL city property (I dont look for them to try to ban s**t at this point). I feel like slow and easy will win this race better than "hit em with all ya got" And yes he was pleasant and offered no resistance. He said he simply didnt know and that they would respect the law. As far as the "future action"...I'm like you an that issue...not worried. Glad I could be a voice for gun rights... Honestly til a few weeks back I never really thought about it. I guess I just assumed KY had great gun laws because we rocked or something..Never occured to me that people like us (Yeah I'm new and havent done much, but I love saying "us"" get out there and fight to keep those rights and to make our laws better.. This site is great and I'm so glad I found it. I may not have fought a huge battle and it may have been an easy win...but what the hell...I'll take that win...
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  19. #94
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    You are right! We all need to be more political or we will lose our gun rights and all other rights. The other side is working every day, as you are finding out.


    List of Cosponsors:

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/12RS/HB500.htm

    Record of votes in both House and Senate:

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/12RS/HB...te_history.pdf

    Unfortunately, you don't get to vote for or against anyone except in your district. Unless you live in Jefferson or Fayette County you can't kick any of them out of office. Only legislators from those two counties voted against HB 500. The rest of the state was firmly behind it
    .
    I'm ashamed to admit it but I dont know squat about state legislation...But I'm eager to learn. When my vote does count I want it to go to a person that is on our side. Like I've said before, I'm a rookie but dying to learn. Thank all of you for all the great info and advice.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  20. #95
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    You may be right. Sometimes its best to take the win and retire. It's your home, your battle and your victory and it is well deserved. You might just casually mention it sometime in a conversation, he might look it up, like he did for this and then it would never be a fight you need to fight. Its your choice.
    I may do that. I just dont want to push to hard and come across like I'm trying to strong arm him. But I will mention it in casual conversation. Just proud to be a part of it all....
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Most of us assume that there is just nothing we can do and the law will move as it does, no matter what. I have found out that is just not true. Our legislators have been very supportive of this, most of them were completely unaware this was a problem until a few of us started talking to them. The Ky League of Cities was the same way and has been a great help with this, much more than I ever dreamed they would be. As a matter of fact, yesterday a man at KLC gave me the names of people to talk to at KACO (Ky. Association of Counties) to help 09jissac with his problem in Lawrence Co. They didn't have to do that, they are helping us because they agree with us. We need to push this everywhere, everyday. The more we complain and explain the problems we have, the more help we will get next year. We need to educate our legislators about the problems as much as we need to educated our public officials about the law. Don't worry about drawing too much attention to this and causing your local officials to complain. They are already doing that and our side needs to be heard. State legislators aren't buying their story.
    Blows my mind that KLC and KACO backs us!!! And I'm glad that our legislators are supportive of us. Just so many states gun laws are F'ed up......I just dont ever want KY to be one of those states.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  22. #97
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Forgive my stupidy...but still a little confused. Is this saying that if an official has a CC license then he or she can CC at these meetings? And as far as a city council meeting.... If they do NOT have a "no concealed weapons" sign posted can you CC in a city council meeting or is there a law that bans this with or without a sign?
    The members of a governing body can CC if they have a CDWL. But most others cannot CC legally into a meeting.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  23. #98
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    I found it, thanks. That is quite some ordinance. I was mistaken before, I've never seen anything like that. That is so contrived and twisted it has to be intentionally written to confuse people and, knowingly, violate the law. This has to be deliberate, no one is that stupid. They didn't even get the right year that HB 40 was passed. It was 1996 not 1995. If they wrote this ordinance in '96, they should have known better. If you can scan it, please do. I may be on to something in the way of help and I'll need it.
    I am sorry for the delay Gutshot. I just now found this post, I must have skipped over it.

    I have them scanned but it says they are too big to upload.
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  24. #99
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Yes, its hard to keep up with them all. Post are "Fast and Furious" in this thread, I sent you a PM.
    I sent you an email containing the ordinance.

    By fast and furious? Are you implying that we are giving the post to people illegally to support our political agenda? I think that was the 1st joke I have ever seen you make so I am leery of jumping to that conclusion.

    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  25. #100
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Owingsville,KY
    Posts
    1,039
    If you recall I recently went to the Owingsville mayor about the illegal gun signs he planned to post. I noticed that one is still "posted" (sitting on top of some file cabinets, leaning against the wall. Its the first thing you see) in the police dept. I think I have read here that you can OC in a police station but just wanted to make sure before I emailed the mayor asking about the remaining sign.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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