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List of Counties/Cities in violation of KRS 65.870

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
Local governments cannot regulate open carry in their buildings and cannot regulate carry on their grounds.

Does it sound like Owingsville violated this?

Can you get me the ordinance number?

I literally found out 15 minutes ago. Talking to the Fire Chief on the phone and he seems to think that since the Police station is in the same building as city hall and the fire station that it gives them the right to ban CC or OC... I will get the ordiance number...going to city hall now.
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
Yes, this is definately a violation of 65.870. You can OC in a police station. Your post makes it sound like the Mayor did this on his own. If that is true, all of it is illegal. There must be an ordinance passed by the city council, they must have a public vote. Then it can only ban CC.The fact that it is a government building is what makes it illegal.

Ok guys. I really want to fight this. But I dont want to go in there with a half ass knowledge of what I am talking about..So please "prepare me for battle". Do I need to see if this is just something they decided in a city counsel meeting or if there is a city ordiance? Whats my first step???
 

KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
First you need to check their ordinances and see if they have any, and if they are legal. Make sure you make copies of them, and do not tell them what you are looking for. Then you need to go to the mayor and ask if this is his policy, and advise him of how illegal it is, and have all proper documents to give him to prove he is in violation of state law. If that doesn't do anything, you will need to go to a city council meeting, and get your voice on the record about this issue and inform them again why they are violating the law and give the council members documentation. If that doesn't work, they will be sued.

If you would like some help I would be glad to do so. Owingsville is not too far from Ashland, so it would not be a problem to drive down. PM me if you would like me to help out.
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
Just left city hall and the main girl that keeps up with things was out to lunch. The girl at the counter couldnt tell me much other than some "no guns allowed" signs where in city hall the other day (lying on a desk, not posted) and that the Chief of police now has them. Going to check back at 2 and see if I can find the chief in town anywhere.
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
First you need to check their ordinances and see if they have any, and if they are legal. Make sure you make copies of them, and do not tell them what you are looking for. Then you need to go to the mayor and ask if this is his policy, and advise him of how illegal it is, and have all proper documents to give him to prove he is in violation of state law. If that doesn't do anything, you will need to go to a city council meeting, and get your voice on the record about this issue and inform them again why they are violating the law and give the council members documentation. If that doesn't work, they will be sued.

If you would like some help I would be glad to do so. Owingsville is not too far from Ashland, so it would not be a problem to drive down. PM me if you would like me to help out.

Thank you so much KYGlockster. I will check back today to see if I can get a copy of the ordiance if they even have one at all. So I shouldn't quote the KRS just yet??? I ask because I doubt I will see the mayor today but there is a city councel member that lives 4 houses down from me that I know well. Should I even talk to him about this issue at all just yet? Once again thank you so much for your help..
 

09jisaac

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,692
Location
Louisa, Kentucky
Glockster will prepare you pretty well to rid your city of illegal ordinances but if you need more help I am willing to go to Owingsville to discuss this with city council too.
 

DrakeZ07

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
1,080
Location
Lexington, Ky
*was unaware this thing was passed into effect or anything like that yet, aside from what SP mentioned at our lil drink thursday. I'm open to help in anyway I can, it's a little disturbing that this would happen in my home county and slip under my radar >.<
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
I spoke to the mayor Friday. He showed me the signs that they are planning on putting up. The wording was "NOTICE IT IS ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM, DEADLY WEAPON OR DANGEROUS ORDNANCE ANYWHERE ON THESE PREMISES Unless otherwise authorized by law, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises." And of course it had a picture of a hand gun inside of a circle with a line through it. I ask him if there was an ordiance. He said no and said "it" was something that was just decided upon for safety reasons. Never said the words "I" or "we"...Just "it". I ask him if it applied to just city hall and the fire station or all city property. He said he didnt plan on driving to the city garage to check for guns but he didnt want them in city hall because at times "things get pretty heated in here".
 

Liberty4Ever

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
351
Location
Lexington, Kentucky, USA
I spoke to the mayor Friday. He showed me the signs that they are planning on putting up. The wording was "NOTICE IT IS ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM, DEADLY WEAPON OR DANGEROUS ORDNANCE ANYWHERE ON THESE PREMISES Unless otherwise authorized by law, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises." And of course it had a picture of a hand gun inside of a circle with a line through it. I ask him if there was an ordinance. He said no and said "it" was something that was just decided upon for safety reasons. Never said the words "I" or "we"...Just "it". I ask him if it applied to just city hall and the fire station or all city property. He said he didnt plan on driving to the city garage to check for guns but he didnt want them in city hall because at times "things get pretty heated in here".
It sounds like another case of a local government elected official not knowing the law and thinking he IS the law in his town.

To summarize, the city can't regulate open carry ANYWHERE. The areas where open carry is not allowed are created by state and federal laws. Concealed carry may be regulated in government buildings (roof and walls) but only after that policy is passed as a local ordinance. The proper signs must be conspicuously posted at the entrances, and the buildings can't be residences. There can be no criminal penalty assessed for violation of the no CCDW local ordinance. Employees of the city have a different situation. Their employer (the city) can establish employee rules prohibiting guns at the workplace (locked in the car in the parking lot should be OK).

There are several ways to proceed. Some have recommended being cagey and not showing your hand too soon. There is value in that strategy sometimes. I generally prefer the other approach. I keep some strategic information in reserve, but I usually prefer to share as much public information as soon as possible, in a friendly, helpful and non-threatening manner. If they're going to be jerks about it, it'll become contentious soon enough, but I don't want to be the one to start in that direction. I'll err on the side of assuming they're well meaning but misinformed, and I'll try to correct their ignorance by showing them the law.

Here's a good Kentucky League of Cities checklist to help the city determine what's legal and what isn't:
http://www.klc.org/sectionArticles....ces & Solutions and Solutions/Legal/Legal New

I also record almost all of these conversations, in person or over the phone. I want a record of what was said... by both parties. It can be very handy later.

It's a pity that we can't fix this problem and be done with it. We seem to be condemned to constantly fight these battles over and over. It costs us time and money, and our tax dollars PAY our elected bureaucrats to repeatedly deprive us of our rights. It not only costs them nothing, it actually pays!

Good luck!
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
It sounds like another case of a local government elected official not knowing the law and thinking he IS the law in his town.

To summarize, the city can't regulate open carry ANYWHERE. The areas where open carry is not allowed are created by state and federal laws. Concealed carry may be regulated in government buildings (roof and walls) but only after that policy is passed as a local ordinance. The proper signs must be conspicuously posted at the entrances, and the buildings can't be residences. There can be no criminal penalty assessed for violation of the no CCDW local ordinance. Employees of the city have a different situation. Their employer (the city) can establish employee rules prohibiting guns at the workplace (locked in the car in the parking lot should be OK).

There are several ways to proceed. Some have recommended being cagey and not showing your hand too soon. There is value in that strategy sometimes. I generally prefer the other approach. I keep some strategic information in reserve, but I usually prefer to share as much public information as soon as possible, in a friendly, helpful and non-threatening manner. If they're going to be jerks about it, it'll become contentious soon enough, but I don't want to be the one to start in that direction. I'll err on the side of assuming they're well meaning but misinformed, and I'll try to correct their ignorance by showing them the law.

Here's a good Kentucky League of Cities checklist to help the city determine what's legal and what isn't:
http://www.klc.org/sectionArticles....ces & Solutions and Solutions/Legal/Legal New

I also record almost all of these conversations, in person or over the phone. I want a record of what was said... by both parties. It can be very handy later.

It's a pity that we can't fix this problem and be done with it. We seem to be condemned to constantly fight these battles over and over. It costs us time and money, and our tax dollars PAY our elected bureaucrats to repeatedly deprive us of our rights. It not only costs them nothing, it actually pays!

Good luck!

Thanks for the link. Very interesting to see that info on the KLC website that is in very plain language. It would be hard not to understand that. I assume this is the same paperwork that you have shown to LFUCG?
 

flb_78

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
544
Location
Gravel Switch, KY
I spoke to the mayor Friday. He showed me the signs that they are planning on putting up. The wording was "NOTICE IT IS ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM, DEADLY WEAPON OR DANGEROUS ORDNANCE ANYWHERE ON THESE PREMISES Unless otherwise authorized by law,

See, the sign isn't illegal because of "Unless authorized by law". Well, are you authorized by law to openly carry a gun? Yes, so the sign doesn't apply to you.

:D
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
See, the sign isn't illegal because of "Unless authorized by law". Well, are you authorized by law to openly carry a gun? Yes, so the sign doesn't apply to you.

:D

Well................now that you put it that way..haha.. But you do have a damn good point:D To bad other people dont know that the law is on their side with this issue. They see a sign and assume it illegal to carry. Know your rights, folks!!!!
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
The sign is illegal. How the signs are to be enforced is the big question. We have all been "authorized by law" to carry guns in the Owingsville City Hall, by the state constitution. Those of us who have a CCDW have also been "authorized" by KRS 237.110 and KRS 237.115. The mayor has volunteered that he "didn't want them in city hall" and that it is "illegal". Illegal means a violation of the law. Where is that law? It doesn't matter what he wants. What matters is what the law says. Its not his building, it belongs to "the people", all of us. Did you ask what he intends to to do if he sees a gun in city hall? Does he intend to punish this "illegal" act. These signs are an attempt to intimidate citizens out of their rights. The bottom line is the Mayor has exceeded his authority by doing this. This attempt at gun control is a direct violation of the Ky. state constitution, KRS 237.110, KRS 237.115, KRS 237.104, and KRS 65.870, both the existing version and the new one. The mayor is using his authority as a public official to restrict a civil right. That is illegal. Do you intend on challenging him on this? Do you feel comfortable talking to him about the laws involved and do you think they will hold it against you if you challenge him? What kind of man is he? You live there and will have to live there after this is over. In some places all it takes is a short education in the law and that's the end of it. In other places there is a lot of arguing and hard feelings and wounded egos. If you are not comfortable with any of this or it gets to be more than you are comfortable with, let me know. I would rather you did it. Its your home town and the whole point is for each of us to clean up there own area, but it is often better for an outsider to do it. They can't retaliate against me. I would be glad to come to Owingsville and OC in city hall or we could go talk to him together, your choice. Unless this mayor is a real hardass i wouldn't expect it would be too difficult to settle this, but I don't know him, you do. In the worst case, I don't care if I am arrested, you might. The worst thing that can happen is to start on it and then quit, allowing them to win. It has to be a fight to the finish, one winner and one loser. If you want to try to convince him to not put up those signs I'd be glad to help you with a short lesson or two. Let us all know what develops and what you intend doing.

Yes sir, I agree with what you say. I do live in the city of Owingsville but an not affliated with the city itself. So they can get mad at me all they want. I am a public figure (Volunteer Fire Chief of a county FD) but the city of Owingsville doesnt have a thing to do with that. I really think that this is just a case of "I didnt know any better". I may have to eat my words but I think after a little education the signs will be send back to where they got them or thrown away. I did OC the other day (at city hall) when I talked to the Mayor (friday). He saw it but never said anything about it. I do have an appt. with him Monday to discuss this issue. I have been studing what you guys have been posting, KRS, KY constitution, KLC and anything else I can. I have had 1 forum user agree to meet me Monday to talk with the Mayor, and have had several other OCDC users offer to come with me. As far as our conversation friday, Per the advice of another OCDO user, I didnt say a whole lot. I just ask if I could meet with him Monday to discuss these signs. The only thing I ask is if it pertained just to city hall and the Owingsville fire station (same building) or all city property. He said he wouldnt drive to the city garage everytime someone pulled up to check for a gun, but he didnt want them in city hall. The fire station never came up. I am "rookie" at this but I'm not going to let it go, plus it looks like I may be getting some help from some of you veterans (in the form of actually being in Owingsville or by the great info you provide on this site). I did say that I wanted to discuss some possible conflicting issues with what he was doing. He seemed very interested and said "please, by all means let me know what you find out". He seemed sincere to learn but may tell me to go F myself come monday. I may have misread him but time will tell.
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
Very interesting. Owingsville has listed its city ordinances on American Legal Publishing.

Go to:

www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Kentucky/owingsville_ky/cityofowingsvillekentuckycodeofordinance?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:eek:wingsville_ky

Then click on Title XIII in the left hand column. Then click Chapter 136. Now on the main page, Scroll down the page about half way and, under "Firearms and Weapons", guess what we have. A summary of KRS 65.870. On their own ordinance page.

Interesting..Now is this Owingsville, or a generic? I know it says O'ville but is it their ordiance page???If so, how sad they missed/ignored this. Great find by the way... The mayor will see this page Monday as well..Thanks
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
I think you are right. I think this one will be solved very easily, without any hard feelings. I checked and Owingsville is a member of Ky. League of Cities. Take a copy of their webpage with the "can's" and "cannot's" and the mag. article. If he has any lingering doubts, tell him to call them.

I'm printing out a packet to take with me to present to him. Like I said, another OCDO member has agreed to come with me with his own paperwork. Which I'm sure is better than mine) If he is able to make it I will let him present/or have me present his paperwork. If in case that the other member isnt able to make it due to last minute change of plans, I will have my stuff ready. I think I could cover the basics but if the mayor wants to get real, real in depth with it I may need some help...like I said, I'm a rookie.....so I hope he can show..if not I understand and willhandle it the best I can.
 

langzaiguy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
916
Location
Central KY
I think what speaks volumes to our public officials is the possibility of a lawsuit. I would stress that by their actions, they would be opening themselves up to CIVIL liability and would stand to lose thousands and now that HB 500 has passed, they are opening themselves up to CRIMINAL liability--especially if you have made them aware of the law and they ignore it.
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
I think what speaks volumes to our public officials is the possibility of a lawsuit. I would stress that by their actions, they would be opening themselves up to CIVIL liability and would stand to lose thousands and now that HB 500 has passed, they are opening themselves up to CRIMINAL liability--especially if you have made them aware of the law and they ignore it.

If KYGlockster can make it then I'm sure all proper paperwork will be there and he will be able to educate far better than I can. If for some reason he cant make it, I'm going to present HB500, KRS 65.870, the page from KLC, the page from the Owingsville ordiance page that mention the KRS. I really think this meeting with the mayor will be an easy fix but if not, I will address the city counsel in a public, recorded forum at the right time.
 

09jisaac

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,692
Location
Louisa, Kentucky
I attempted to set through the Lawrence County fiscal court meeting to see if they attempted to change their ordinance at all. I was removed from the meeting flanked by the sheriff and a deputy (woman I never seen before wearing a polo shirt with the sheriff emblem).

He said "You do know HB 161 didn't pass don't you?"
"161?"
"The one that regulates open carry."

I told him that we didn't need 161 because we already had 65.870 (he had the printed out) and said I was still in violation. This does not look like it is going to go easy. I didn't have time to turn my recorder (phone) on.

He said something about an AGO about "house rules", but would not show me that paper for long. He said 65.870 refers ONLY to peoples HOUSES and do not include government buildings. He continued to say that it is illegal to carry into the sheriff dept. and the WHOLE courthouse (County attorney's office, Clerks office, etc.)
 

self preservation

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
1,036
Location
Owingsville,KY
I attempted to set through the Lawrence County fiscal court meeting to see if they attempted to change their ordinance at all. I was removed from the meeting flanked by the sheriff and a deputy (woman I never seen before wearing a polo shirt with the sheriff emblem).

He said "You do know HB 161 didn't pass don't you?"
"161?"
"The one that regulates open carry."

I told him that we didn't need 161 because we already had 65.870 (he had the printed out) and said I was still in violation. This does not look like it is going to go easy. I didn't have time to turn my recorder (phone) on.

He said something about an AGO about "house rules", but would not show me that paper for long. He said 65.870 refers ONLY to peoples HOUSES and do not include government buildings. He continued to say that it is illegal to carry into the sheriff dept. and the WHOLE courthouse (County attorney's office, Clerks office, etc.)

I have been googling but cant find any good details on HB 161. Can someone explain what this is?
 
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