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Thread: List of Counties/Cities in violation of KRS 65.870

  1. #26
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cgm2414 View Post
    I do want you all to realize though, that he is family and I will personally not press the issue with him, I will lay the material out before him and explain things to the best of my ability and if he wants me to shut up I will. At that point I will give you all his numbers and I continue my quest with other members, but I do not want to risk the relationship I have with him.
    I see nothing wrong with this. I am from a close family too and we definitely would not want to do anything that is potentially detrimental to each other.

    That being said, your uncle is not in a lot of people's family who wish the government to obey the rules. I will kindly point out that he is in the wrong if he tries to block the transition to a legal ordinance or to totally rid Morehead of any ordinance to carry. And tell him there is very little you can do to stop what might be coming if he is in the wrong.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I see nothing wrong with this. I am from a close family too and we definitely would not want to do anything that is potentially detrimental to each other.

    That being said, your uncle is not in a lot of people's family who wish the government to obey the rules. I will kindly point out that he is in the wrong if he tries to block the transition to a legal ordinance or to totally rid Morehead of any ordinance to carry. And tell him there is very little you can do to stop what might be coming if he is in the wrong.
    Most definately, I have no problem with you or anyone else calling him or any other member out, actually it would be welcome. Morehead is an absolute police state period, our council members are corrupt, and Morehead is probably the poster child of a corrupt city. Things have gone as far to give University Police county wide jurisdiction, which in my opinion has to stop. Thanks for all that you guys are doing.

  3. #28
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    Paducah is still not compliant with state law. Ordinance 30-3 is the violation. When I pressed about this before the City Manager said that the City Attorney advised him that the law was allowed per KY law.
    Here is a link. http://library.municode.com/index.as...ename=Kentucky
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  4. #29
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    Paducah is still not compliant with state law. Ordinance 30-3 is the violation. When I pressed about this before the City Manager said that the City Attorney advised him that the law was allowed per KY law.
    Here is a link. http://library.municode.com/index.as...ename=Kentucky
    I do think that you are correct. I will add it to the list. Thanks for the help.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  5. #30
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    It is certainly a violation, a violation of KRS 65.870 and 237.104.

    Is this the only ordinance they have that is in violation? I will get all the information and get in contact with them, unless someone is closer who could do so?
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 04-05-2012 at 08:01 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    Paducah is still not compliant with state law. Ordinance 30-3 is the violation. When I pressed about this before the City Manager said that the City Attorney advised him that the law was allowed per KY law.
    Here is a link. http://library.municode.com/index.as...ename=Kentucky
    Both of those gentlemen must have reading comprehension problems. The city manager is getting very bad legal advice. I wonder if he is willing to risk a conviction for Official Misconduct on that advice.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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  7. #32
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I'm not going to bother asking him. He is a bit of a dick and a smug bastard to boot. The way I see it I've already told them about it once and dealt with their crap for months. I will let the cards fall and make them change it. The also have not removed the signs from the city park. The county removed their signs almost immediately after being notified.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  8. #33
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    Ok, maybe I'm missing something..

    Went to get my driver license renewed... On entering the building, they have setup a metal detector. I was OC at the time, and the guard asked me if I was an LEO. I told him no, and he said I couldn't bring my weapon in the building. I asked what ordinance they had preventing me for doing so? He said Huh... I am just telling you you can't bring a weapon in here. He then asked what business I had, and I told him to get my license renewed. Now the area where you get it renewed is in the same room as when you enter the building, so when you go through the detector, you get in line for the license.
    I went back to my truck, and removed my weapon, then went back in through the detector, and the guard gave me a dirty look. I got my license, and on the way out he said don't come back here again wearing that gun or we will have you arrested. I ignored him and went on out, and I didn't bother to get his name.


    Are they breaking the ordinance, or did I miss something? Any suggestions?

  9. #34
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comm View Post
    Are they breaking the ordinance, or did I miss something? Any suggestions?
    Drivers licensing is part of the court system. I don't know why, but I do know you cannot legally carry there. I THINK as long as you didn't enter the secure area (part after the metal detector in your case) then you didn't break any laws but that is just my take.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    DL is part of the circuit courts. You are extremely lucky you did not get arrested. If you would have done that here in Boyd co., you would be setting in jail right now. Unless there is a public office in the courthouse, you can not carry in it. This is why most counties have a courthouse annex, or a new justice center.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    DL is part of the circuit courts. You are extremely lucky you did not get arrested. If you would have done that here in Boyd co., you would be setting in jail right now. Unless there is a public office in the courthouse, you can not carry in it. This is why most counties have a courthouse annex, or a new justice center.
    It was not in the courthouse, it was in a building right beside it. It does house several other public offices, like attorneys, and public works, which is why I asked. It's a "common" building that they use because they did not have space in the courthouse for it. They are planning on building a new annex, but have not gotten to it yet because of money.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comm View Post
    Ok, maybe I'm missing something..

    Went to get my driver license renewed... On entering the building, they have setup a metal detector. I was OC at the time, and the guard asked me if I was an LEO. I told him no, and he said I couldn't bring my weapon in the building. I asked what ordinance they had preventing me for doing so? He said Huh... I am just telling you you can't bring a weapon in here. He then asked what business I had, and I told him to get my license renewed. Now the area where you get it renewed is in the same room as when you enter the building, so when you go through the detector, you get in line for the license.
    I went back to my truck, and removed my weapon, then went back in through the detector, and the guard gave me a dirty look. I got my license, and on the way out he said don't come back here again wearing that gun or we will have you arrested. I ignored him and went on out, and I didn't bother to get his name.


    Are they breaking the ordinance, or did I miss something? Any suggestions?
    It's hard to give you a complete answer, because you don't say what kind of building, or even what county, you were in. Is this a county Courthouse or a new Judicial Center? In Ky., drivers licenses are issued by the Circuit Clerks office. The Circuit Clerk is the clerk for the Circuit Judge. That office is part of the court system and, just like a courtroom or Judges Chambers, no weapons are allowed. Now the rest of the building, I'll have to get more information to answer your question. I think you live in Jessamine County, and assuming your truck or car is registered in Jessamine Co. there is no Judicial Center. Again, assuming, you went to the county courthouse and, assuming the Jessamine county Fiscal Court has passed a county ordinance prohibiting CC in all County buildings and the building is posted with the proper signs, then CC is not legal there, but OC is legal and they can not prohibit it. They will probably claim they have the authority to ban all weapons, but they don't. If all of these assumption are true, you need to go to the Co. Judge/Executive and Magistrates of Fiscal Court and explain that they are breaking the law. Do you know the name of the man who refused to let you into the courthouse and illegally threatened to arrest you? I "assume" he is a Deputy Sheriff. If so you should also talk to the Sheriff.You could sue him and the Deputy in federal court for depriving you of your civil rights. You should read Attorney General's Opinions 96-39 and 97-09 and show them to the Judge/Exec. and Sheriff. They can be found on the AG's website. KRS 65.870, both old and new, and KRS 237.104 are also on point. KRS 237.115 is the authority to ban concealed weapons. It make no mention of OC weapons. Interestingly enough, your State Representative, Bob Damron, was the man who asked the Attorney General for an opinion on this subject and received AGO 97-09. This would be a great case to start off using HB 500. HB 500 was Rep. Damron's bill.

    Edit: I just did a quick search and there doesn't appear to be any Jessamine Co. ordinances about firearms except noise control (nuisance). I'd bet you will find out the Circuit Judge has ordered this. It's still illegal. Find out all the information and I'll help you get started.
    Last edited by gutshot; 04-11-2012 at 04:20 PM.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comm View Post
    It was not in the courthouse, it was in a building right beside it. It does house several other public offices, like attorneys, and public works, which is why I asked. It's a "common" building that they use because they did not have space in the courthouse for it. They are planning on building a new annex, but have not gotten to it yet because of money.
    Who owns this building or is it rented by the county or just partially rented by the Court of Justice? If rented, by whom and from whom. Who was this "guard"? Was he a county Deputy Sheriff or a private security guard? Was he on duty or moonlighting? Was he in a county uniform, with a county badge, county gun? In your OP you quoted the guard as saying "don't come back or we will have you arrested" not, "I will arrest you." That leads me to believe he is a private security guard and if so, then this may be a private building, you said it had "other offices, attorneys". If it is a privately owned building the owners can do what they want, including having you arrested for trespassing. Maybe that is the reason he was confused when you asked about ordinances. Too many unanswered questions to give much of an answer to this one.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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  14. #39
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    Gutshot, he said when you walk in you are in the Circuit Clerks office. Wouldn't that make it illegal to carry in there even if there is other offices in the building?
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    While we are on the subject, the justice center in Boyd county has a "no concealed weapons allowed pursuant to KRS 237.115," sign on the door. There are no county ordinances that prohibit concealed weapons in "county buildings," and being as this is a justice center, why would they use such wording? This sign is illegal is it not?, being as there is no ordinance to validate the sign, but more importantly because it is a justice center and the statute does not apply to them. Shouldn't they have a sign that simply says "no weapons allowed?" This could lead people who may not be well informed to believe OC would be ok when it certainly is not.

    Who would I need to speak with about this issue? Can someone point me to case law that allows court of justice areas/courthouses to prohibit weapons so I can inform them that the sign they have needs to be replaced with a "no weapons" sign.

    I also had an issue with the court security making me return a handcuff key to my vehicle before entering. What gives them the authority to have me remove a key from the premesis? The reason I have a handcuff key is because I like getting friskey! Haha. Not really, it is a smith&wesson key that has their logo in the center and I simply think it is neat. I had to remove a key, but they allowed my g/f to enter with pepper spray, how ridiculous.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Gutshot, he said when you walk in you are in the Circuit Clerks office. Wouldn't that make it illegal to carry in there even if there is other offices in the building?
    He wrote, "the area where you get it renewed is in the same room as when you enter the building, so when you go through the detector, you get in line for the license." I don't know exactly what it means. I don't know if the metal detector is inside or outside the room or inside or outside the building. It may be inside the building, but outside the room. Then you go through the metal detector and into another room. If its a privately owned building, which I am now beginning to think it is, and the owner prohibits weapons, that is the end of it. Surely, you don't have to go through the Clerks office to get to the other, non governmental, offices. It could be that you go through the metal detector into a common lobby then apply for your license through a window in the lobby. and the other offices are off the lobby. This whole thing may be the most confusing post I've ever read. It doesn't make much difference, I don't believe it is a county building, so the owners of it can do anything they want. He says, "It does house several other public offices, like attorneys, and public works, which is why I asked. Does this mean open to the public business like private attorneys or Public office holders like County/City attorneys. Same with public works, does it mean privately owned public utilites like KU or public owned utilities like a city water company.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    While we are on the subject, the justice center in Boyd county has a "no concealed weapons allowed pursuant to KRS 237.115," sign on the door. There are no county ordinances that prohibit concealed weapons in "county buildings," and being as this is a justice center, why would they use such wording? This sign is illegal is it not?, being as there is no ordinance to validate the sign, but more importantly because it is a justice center and the statute does not apply to them. Shouldn't they have a sign that simply says "no weapons allowed?" This could lead people who may not be well informed to believe OC would be ok when it certainly is not.

    Who would I need to speak with about this issue? Can someone point me to case law that allows court of justice areas/courthouses to prohibit weapons so I can inform them that the sign they have needs to be replaced with a "no weapons" sign.

    I also had an issue with the court security making me return a handcuff key to my vehicle before entering. What gives them the authority to have me remove a key from the premesis? The reason I have a handcuff key is because I like getting friskey! Haha. Not really, it is a smith&wesson key that has their logo in the center and I simply think it is neat. I had to remove a key, but they allowed my g/f to enter with pepper spray, how ridiculous.
    I don't know why you'd want to get in to it about that sign. What will you gain? You can't bring weapons into that building and never will be able to. If you make a stink about there not being an ordinance to back up the sign, they may decide to pass the ordinance. Then there would be no CC in any Boyd Co. building. They have seen that wording on other county's buildings and think it sounds good and copied it. I'd leave it alone and just laugh at them every time I saw it. I understand your concern about an OC'er misunderstanding the meaning and you might point that out to them, but it's your county. Do what you think best.

    The problem with small knives and trinkets is an issue all over the state. I had my fingernail clipper taken at our Judicial Center last month. They gave it back when I left. Its stupid. Two weeks ago a guard at the Capitol took the same fingernail clippers while he passed me through with my 1911. What kind of sense does that make. I can't be trusted with fingernail clippers, but I'm OK to go with a .45 automatic. Please.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









  18. #43
    Regular Member Comm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    He wrote, "the area where you get it renewed is in the same room as when you enter the building, so when you go through the detector, you get in line for the license." I don't know exactly what it means. I don't know if the metal detector is inside or outside the room or inside or outside the building. It may be inside the building, but outside the room. Then you go through the metal detector and into another room. If its a privately owned building, which I am now beginning to think it is, and the owner prohibits weapons, that is the end of it. Surely, you don't have to go through the Clerks office to get to the other, non governmental, offices. It could be that you go through the metal detector into a common lobby then apply for your license through a window in the lobby. and the other offices are off the lobby. This whole thing may be the most confusing post I've ever read. It doesn't make much difference, I don't believe it is a county building, so the owners of it can do anything they want. He says, "It does house several other public offices, like attorneys, and public works, which is why I asked. Does this mean open to the public business like private attorneys or Public office holders like County/City attorneys. Same with public works, does it mean privately owned public utilites like KU or public owned utilities like a city water company.
    Sorry for the confusion guys. The building I will check on to see if it's privately owned.
    The detector is INSIDE when you walk through the main entrance doors, which is actually a big lobby. The DL has a window that you walk up to, AFTER you go through the detector.
    Yes Gutshot, I'm in Jessamine Co. Sorry forgot to mention that part.
    I'll check with the guard. I know he wasn't a deputy sheriff, so he may have been some form of security.
    Again, sorry for the confusion, but I was upset after all that.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    While we are on the subject, the justice center in Boyd county has a "no concealed weapons allowed pursuant to KRS 237.115," sign on the door. There are no county ordinances that prohibit concealed weapons in "county buildings," and being as this is a justice center, why would they use such wording? This sign is illegal is it not?, being as there is no ordinance to validate the sign, but more importantly because it is a justice center and the statute does not apply to them. Shouldn't they have a sign that simply says "no weapons allowed?" This could lead people who may not be well informed to believe OC would be ok when it certainly is not.

    Who would I need to speak with about this issue? Can someone point me to case law that allows court of justice areas/courthouses to prohibit weapons so I can inform them that the sign they have needs to be replaced with a "no weapons" sign.

    I also had an issue with the court security making me return a handcuff key to my vehicle before entering. What gives them the authority to have me remove a key from the premesis? The reason I have a handcuff key is because I like getting friskey! Haha. Not really, it is a smith&wesson key that has their logo in the center and I simply think it is neat. I had to remove a key, but they allowed my g/f to enter with pepper spray, how ridiculous.
    I don't know why you'd want to get in to it about that sign. What will you gain? You can't bring weapons into that building and never will be able to. If you make a stink about there not being an ordinance to back up the sign, they may decide to pass the ordinance. Then there would be no CC in any Boyd Co. building. They have seen that wording on other county's buildings and think it sounds good and copied it. I'd leave it alone and just laugh at them every time I saw it. I understand your concern about an OC'er misunderstanding the meaning and you might point that out to them, but it's your county. Do what you think best.

    The problem with small knives and trinkets is an issue all over the state. I had my fingernail clipper taken at our Judicial Center last month. They gave it back when I left. Its stupid. Two weeks ago a guard at the Capitol took the same fingernail clippers while he passed me through with my 1911. What kind of sense does that make. I can't be trusted with fingernail clippers, but I'm OK to go with a .45 automatic. Please.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









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    You are right. The sign issue is petty, but also rather irritating, I will just ignore the issue though due to your suggestions. The fact that they removed your clippers while allowing you to pass with a handgun is repugnant. That boggles my mind. What could you possibly do with clippers that couldn't be done so much easier with a .45 caliber slug? That should be proof to everyone that if issues are not fought and handled, they will prohibit or restrict every aspect of our day to day lives, even in buildings "we the people" own.

    I plan on visiting the Capitol soon with my little girl. Do they have you remove your firearm from it's holster and run it through the scanner, or do they have you leave it on your hip?
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  21. #46
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    Reminds me of this, but I think Gutshots experience was worse. He probably had a full magazine with one in the chamber.
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    Wow! They destroy the economy and workforce so these men and women have no choice but to join the military to survive. They unconstitutionally declare war. They make them fight in all these phony wars that these brave Americans should not be fighting in. They sacrifice America's bravest for no reason and piss on their family's back home, and now they are starting to deprive them of their benefits. We trust them to carry fully automatic weapons all over these war zones, but they can't carry nail clippers on a plane in the states? This is very aggravating. These men and women should be able to carry any weapon they want, at anytime, anywhere in the U.S. These men and women should have had the right to carry concealed in all 50 states before Law Enforcement officers had that right! These people go, fight, watch their buddies die, KILL, leave their families for up to a year at a time or more, and they get treated like this? Outrageous!

    Hopefully issues like this will show them just how much the government cares about them! If there are any veterans on here, I DO SUPPORT you, and thank you for everything you have done! I am sorry you are treated like criminals, however the real Americans know your heroes.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  23. #48
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    Lexington is in violation of KRS 65.870... AGAIN! They have a metal detector in the city building, and it's apparently only used to disarm people entering the mayor's suite of offices. I've been trying to convince them to obey our state law and remove the metal detector for over a year.

    I'm posting a separate thread about the issues with the LFUCG metal detector, rather than hijack this thread.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    You are right. The sign issue is petty, but also rather irritating, I will just ignore the issue though due to your suggestions. The fact that they removed your clippers while allowing you to pass with a handgun is repugnant. That boggles my mind. What could you possibly do with clippers that couldn't be done so much easier with a .45 caliber slug? That should be proof to everyone that if issues are not fought and handled, they will prohibit or restrict every aspect of our day to day lives, even in buildings "we the people" own.

    I plan on visiting the Capitol soon with my little girl. Do they have you remove your firearm from it's holster and run it through the scanner, or do they have you leave it on your hip?
    Typical metal detector, just like at airport. When you enter the door, you remove all metal objects and put them in a basket and place the basket on a table. Then you walk through the metal detector, buzzer goes off, you go back, remove belt with metal bucket, go through metal detector, buzzer goes off, you go back out, remove cell phone, go back through through metal detector, buzzer goes off again. Guard becomes irate and brings hand wand over and wands you and finds ballpoint pin you forgot. He says "go ahead", but you are confused and ask "don't you want to see my CC license?" He's very confused and asks, "Are you carrying a gun?" You answer by pointing at the gun in the basket and he says "Oh, I didn't see that". It's a great system. Alternate ending is he does see the gun right away and asks for CC license and fills out visitor's pass and calls to verify CC license. After all is confirmed, you turn to retrieve belongings and your wallet, money and gun are gone. You won't believe it, absolutely useless system. I've seen people walk around the metal detector and the guard not even notice. OC really messes them up. They call to verify CC licences and feel like they are off the hook when somebody else OK's it, but don't know what to do about OC. They are "pretty sure" its OK but don't know how to document it, and don't like the fact that nobody else has "OK'ed" their actions. Now they are responsible, they don't like that part.
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

    William Pitt



    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

    Samuel Adams









  25. #50
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,978
    That is good to know. I will certainly carry openly and leave my cdwl in the car just to have fun with them.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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