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Thread: List of Counties/Cities in violation of KRS 65.870

  1. #26
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I'm not going to bother asking him. He is a bit of a dick and a smug bastard to boot. The way I see it I've already told them about it once and dealt with their crap for months. I will let the cards fall and make them change it. The also have not removed the signs from the city park. The county removed their signs almost immediately after being notified.
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  2. #27
    Regular Member Comm's Avatar
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    Ok, maybe I'm missing something..

    Went to get my driver license renewed... On entering the building, they have setup a metal detector. I was OC at the time, and the guard asked me if I was an LEO. I told him no, and he said I couldn't bring my weapon in the building. I asked what ordinance they had preventing me for doing so? He said Huh... I am just telling you you can't bring a weapon in here. He then asked what business I had, and I told him to get my license renewed. Now the area where you get it renewed is in the same room as when you enter the building, so when you go through the detector, you get in line for the license.
    I went back to my truck, and removed my weapon, then went back in through the detector, and the guard gave me a dirty look. I got my license, and on the way out he said don't come back here again wearing that gun or we will have you arrested. I ignored him and went on out, and I didn't bother to get his name.


    Are they breaking the ordinance, or did I miss something? Any suggestions?

  3. #28
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comm View Post
    Are they breaking the ordinance, or did I miss something? Any suggestions?
    Drivers licensing is part of the court system. I don't know why, but I do know you cannot legally carry there. I THINK as long as you didn't enter the secure area (part after the metal detector in your case) then you didn't break any laws but that is just my take.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  4. #29
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    DL is part of the circuit courts. You are extremely lucky you did not get arrested. If you would have done that here in Boyd co., you would be setting in jail right now. Unless there is a public office in the courthouse, you can not carry in it. This is why most counties have a courthouse annex, or a new justice center.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Comm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    DL is part of the circuit courts. You are extremely lucky you did not get arrested. If you would have done that here in Boyd co., you would be setting in jail right now. Unless there is a public office in the courthouse, you can not carry in it. This is why most counties have a courthouse annex, or a new justice center.
    It was not in the courthouse, it was in a building right beside it. It does house several other public offices, like attorneys, and public works, which is why I asked. It's a "common" building that they use because they did not have space in the courthouse for it. They are planning on building a new annex, but have not gotten to it yet because of money.

  6. #31
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Gutshot, he said when you walk in you are in the Circuit Clerks office. Wouldn't that make it illegal to carry in there even if there is other offices in the building?
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  7. #32
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    While we are on the subject, the justice center in Boyd county has a "no concealed weapons allowed pursuant to KRS 237.115," sign on the door. There are no county ordinances that prohibit concealed weapons in "county buildings," and being as this is a justice center, why would they use such wording? This sign is illegal is it not?, being as there is no ordinance to validate the sign, but more importantly because it is a justice center and the statute does not apply to them. Shouldn't they have a sign that simply says "no weapons allowed?" This could lead people who may not be well informed to believe OC would be ok when it certainly is not.

    Who would I need to speak with about this issue? Can someone point me to case law that allows court of justice areas/courthouses to prohibit weapons so I can inform them that the sign they have needs to be replaced with a "no weapons" sign.

    I also had an issue with the court security making me return a handcuff key to my vehicle before entering. What gives them the authority to have me remove a key from the premesis? The reason I have a handcuff key is because I like getting friskey! Haha. Not really, it is a smith&wesson key that has their logo in the center and I simply think it is neat. I had to remove a key, but they allowed my g/f to enter with pepper spray, how ridiculous.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Comm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    He wrote, "the area where you get it renewed is in the same room as when you enter the building, so when you go through the detector, you get in line for the license." I don't know exactly what it means. I don't know if the metal detector is inside or outside the room or inside or outside the building. It may be inside the building, but outside the room. Then you go through the metal detector and into another room. If its a privately owned building, which I am now beginning to think it is, and the owner prohibits weapons, that is the end of it. Surely, you don't have to go through the Clerks office to get to the other, non governmental, offices. It could be that you go through the metal detector into a common lobby then apply for your license through a window in the lobby. and the other offices are off the lobby. This whole thing may be the most confusing post I've ever read. It doesn't make much difference, I don't believe it is a county building, so the owners of it can do anything they want. He says, "It does house several other public offices, like attorneys, and public works, which is why I asked. Does this mean open to the public business like private attorneys or Public office holders like County/City attorneys. Same with public works, does it mean privately owned public utilites like KU or public owned utilities like a city water company.
    Sorry for the confusion guys. The building I will check on to see if it's privately owned.
    The detector is INSIDE when you walk through the main entrance doors, which is actually a big lobby. The DL has a window that you walk up to, AFTER you go through the detector.
    Yes Gutshot, I'm in Jessamine Co. Sorry forgot to mention that part.
    I'll check with the guard. I know he wasn't a deputy sheriff, so he may have been some form of security.
    Again, sorry for the confusion, but I was upset after all that.

  9. #34
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    You are right. The sign issue is petty, but also rather irritating, I will just ignore the issue though due to your suggestions. The fact that they removed your clippers while allowing you to pass with a handgun is repugnant. That boggles my mind. What could you possibly do with clippers that couldn't be done so much easier with a .45 caliber slug? That should be proof to everyone that if issues are not fought and handled, they will prohibit or restrict every aspect of our day to day lives, even in buildings "we the people" own.

    I plan on visiting the Capitol soon with my little girl. Do they have you remove your firearm from it's holster and run it through the scanner, or do they have you leave it on your hip?
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  10. #35
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Reminds me of this, but I think Gutshots experience was worse. He probably had a full magazine with one in the chamber.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  11. #36
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    Wow! They destroy the economy and workforce so these men and women have no choice but to join the military to survive. They unconstitutionally declare war. They make them fight in all these phony wars that these brave Americans should not be fighting in. They sacrifice America's bravest for no reason and piss on their family's back home, and now they are starting to deprive them of their benefits. We trust them to carry fully automatic weapons all over these war zones, but they can't carry nail clippers on a plane in the states? This is very aggravating. These men and women should be able to carry any weapon they want, at anytime, anywhere in the U.S. These men and women should have had the right to carry concealed in all 50 states before Law Enforcement officers had that right! These people go, fight, watch their buddies die, KILL, leave their families for up to a year at a time or more, and they get treated like this? Outrageous!

    Hopefully issues like this will show them just how much the government cares about them! If there are any veterans on here, I DO SUPPORT you, and thank you for everything you have done! I am sorry you are treated like criminals, however the real Americans know your heroes.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Liberty4Ever's Avatar
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    Lexington is in violation of KRS 65.870... AGAIN! They have a metal detector in the city building, and it's apparently only used to disarm people entering the mayor's suite of offices. I've been trying to convince them to obey our state law and remove the metal detector for over a year.

    I'm posting a separate thread about the issues with the LFUCG metal detector, rather than hijack this thread.

  13. #38
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    That is good to know. I will certainly carry openly and leave my cdwl in the car just to have fun with them.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  14. #39
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    I have just learned that the Mayor of Owingsville (Bath county) has now banned OC or CC from city hall and the city fire station. Just talked to the Fire Chief (Very, very pro gun) and as much as he hates it he said a Detective with the city PD. cited that it was legal to do so because "city hall was a goverment building" The city hall, city fire station and police dept are one same building. But you do have to have a key to each door...other words its not a common building that you can visit all 3 depts from the inside. You have to come out of a door and walk down to the next door to enter city or PD..Does this violate KRS 65.870 or does the police dept being a part of the building excempt them from KRS 65.870?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  15. #40
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Local governments cannot regulate open carry in their buildings and cannot regulate carry on their grounds.

    Does it sound like Owingsville violated this?

    Can you get me the ordinance number?
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  16. #41
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Local governments cannot regulate open carry in their buildings and cannot regulate carry on their grounds.

    Does it sound like Owingsville violated this?

    Can you get me the ordinance number?
    I literally found out 15 minutes ago. Talking to the Fire Chief on the phone and he seems to think that since the Police station is in the same building as city hall and the fire station that it gives them the right to ban CC or OC... I will get the ordiance number...going to city hall now.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  17. #42
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Yes, this is definately a violation of 65.870. You can OC in a police station. Your post makes it sound like the Mayor did this on his own. If that is true, all of it is illegal. There must be an ordinance passed by the city council, they must have a public vote. Then it can only ban CC.The fact that it is a government building is what makes it illegal.
    Ok guys. I really want to fight this. But I dont want to go in there with a half ass knowledge of what I am talking about..So please "prepare me for battle". Do I need to see if this is just something they decided in a city counsel meeting or if there is a city ordiance? Whats my first step???
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  18. #43
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    First you need to check their ordinances and see if they have any, and if they are legal. Make sure you make copies of them, and do not tell them what you are looking for. Then you need to go to the mayor and ask if this is his policy, and advise him of how illegal it is, and have all proper documents to give him to prove he is in violation of state law. If that doesn't do anything, you will need to go to a city council meeting, and get your voice on the record about this issue and inform them again why they are violating the law and give the council members documentation. If that doesn't work, they will be sued.

    If you would like some help I would be glad to do so. Owingsville is not too far from Ashland, so it would not be a problem to drive down. PM me if you would like me to help out.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  19. #44
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Just left city hall and the main girl that keeps up with things was out to lunch. The girl at the counter couldnt tell me much other than some "no guns allowed" signs where in city hall the other day (lying on a desk, not posted) and that the Chief of police now has them. Going to check back at 2 and see if I can find the chief in town anywhere.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  20. #45
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    First you need to check their ordinances and see if they have any, and if they are legal. Make sure you make copies of them, and do not tell them what you are looking for. Then you need to go to the mayor and ask if this is his policy, and advise him of how illegal it is, and have all proper documents to give him to prove he is in violation of state law. If that doesn't do anything, you will need to go to a city council meeting, and get your voice on the record about this issue and inform them again why they are violating the law and give the council members documentation. If that doesn't work, they will be sued.

    If you would like some help I would be glad to do so. Owingsville is not too far from Ashland, so it would not be a problem to drive down. PM me if you would like me to help out.
    Thank you so much KYGlockster. I will check back today to see if I can get a copy of the ordiance if they even have one at all. So I shouldn't quote the KRS just yet??? I ask because I doubt I will see the mayor today but there is a city councel member that lives 4 houses down from me that I know well. Should I even talk to him about this issue at all just yet? Once again thank you so much for your help..
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  21. #46
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    Check your PMs. I would not mention anything yet.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  22. #47
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Glockster will prepare you pretty well to rid your city of illegal ordinances but if you need more help I am willing to go to Owingsville to discuss this with city council too.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  23. #48
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    *was unaware this thing was passed into effect or anything like that yet, aside from what SP mentioned at our lil drink thursday. I'm open to help in anyway I can, it's a little disturbing that this would happen in my home county and slip under my radar >.<
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  24. #49
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    I spoke to the mayor Friday. He showed me the signs that they are planning on putting up. The wording was "NOTICE IT IS ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM, DEADLY WEAPON OR DANGEROUS ORDNANCE ANYWHERE ON THESE PREMISES Unless otherwise authorized by law, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises." And of course it had a picture of a hand gun inside of a circle with a line through it. I ask him if there was an ordiance. He said no and said "it" was something that was just decided upon for safety reasons. Never said the words "I" or "we"...Just "it". I ask him if it applied to just city hall and the fire station or all city property. He said he didnt plan on driving to the city garage to check for guns but he didnt want them in city hall because at times "things get pretty heated in here".
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  25. #50
    Regular Member Liberty4Ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I spoke to the mayor Friday. He showed me the signs that they are planning on putting up. The wording was "NOTICE IT IS ILLEGAL TO CARRY A FIREARM, DEADLY WEAPON OR DANGEROUS ORDNANCE ANYWHERE ON THESE PREMISES Unless otherwise authorized by law, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises." And of course it had a picture of a hand gun inside of a circle with a line through it. I ask him if there was an ordinance. He said no and said "it" was something that was just decided upon for safety reasons. Never said the words "I" or "we"...Just "it". I ask him if it applied to just city hall and the fire station or all city property. He said he didnt plan on driving to the city garage to check for guns but he didnt want them in city hall because at times "things get pretty heated in here".
    It sounds like another case of a local government elected official not knowing the law and thinking he IS the law in his town.

    To summarize, the city can't regulate open carry ANYWHERE. The areas where open carry is not allowed are created by state and federal laws. Concealed carry may be regulated in government buildings (roof and walls) but only after that policy is passed as a local ordinance. The proper signs must be conspicuously posted at the entrances, and the buildings can't be residences. There can be no criminal penalty assessed for violation of the no CCDW local ordinance. Employees of the city have a different situation. Their employer (the city) can establish employee rules prohibiting guns at the workplace (locked in the car in the parking lot should be OK).

    There are several ways to proceed. Some have recommended being cagey and not showing your hand too soon. There is value in that strategy sometimes. I generally prefer the other approach. I keep some strategic information in reserve, but I usually prefer to share as much public information as soon as possible, in a friendly, helpful and non-threatening manner. If they're going to be jerks about it, it'll become contentious soon enough, but I don't want to be the one to start in that direction. I'll err on the side of assuming they're well meaning but misinformed, and I'll try to correct their ignorance by showing them the law.

    Here's a good Kentucky League of Cities checklist to help the city determine what's legal and what isn't:
    http://www.klc.org/sectionArticles.a...al/Legal%20New

    I also record almost all of these conversations, in person or over the phone. I want a record of what was said... by both parties. It can be very handy later.

    It's a pity that we can't fix this problem and be done with it. We seem to be condemned to constantly fight these battles over and over. It costs us time and money, and our tax dollars PAY our elected bureaucrats to repeatedly deprive us of our rights. It not only costs them nothing, it actually pays!

    Good luck!

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