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Thread: Stopped by WilkesBarre PD for OC'ing

  1. #1
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    Angry Stopped by WilkesBarre PD for OC'ing

    So today me and my friend Sam who you may know if your from the Wilkes-Barre area due to him being on the front page of the paper a week ago after being held at gun point and almost robbed but he had his pistol on him and stopped it. Well we were open carrying along the streets of Wilkes-Barre today when we passed a house with people on the porch. We noticed some dirty looks and then one of them picked up his phone right after. We figured he was calling the cops but we knew our right's and continued walking. About 5 minutes later we noticed a cop next to us yelling to stop and dont move. Ahead of us another cop blocking the end of the road and about 3 more behind us. At that point the officer next to us said "you cant have your guns hanging out like that" and then immediately demanded ID'S from both of us. I argued with him and said i am opencarrying and have no need to show him my gun permit. After a few minutes of argueing i gave it to him and he started calling it in. Shortly after another officer walked behind me and was listening to me argue with the other officer about my right's and he immediately cut us off and said "Hes right, im not going to argue about this on scene" at the point the angry officer got into his car, slammed the door and actually burned out. The cop who clearly knows the law turned to me and asked if i felt my rights were violated by the previous officer's. I replied YES I DO. He then handed our ID'S back and apologized for everything and sent us on our way. Ive always CC'D due to the fact i knew something like this would happen. Sure enough these so called "cops" cause all this drama and dont know the damn law!!

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Any audio recording or incident report?

    Are you filing a complaint?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Any audio recording or incident report?

    Are you filing a complaint?
    Seconded.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Thirded.
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    There was no audio record and as far as i know there was no incident report ither. I was thinken about fileing a complaint but i dont see that going anywhere..

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith0143 View Post
    There was no audio record and as far as i know there was no incident report ither. I was thinken about fileing a complaint but i dont see that going anywhere..
    Officers (5 ?) surely there is an incident report. May we presume that you know the date, approx. time and maybe even one of the officers' name? If you don't wish to make the effort, fill in the blanks and I'm sure someone else local will accomplish a FOIA request.

    You're right the complaint won't go anywhere....especially if not filed. You normally CC because you "always knew this would happen", then 2 of you OC and get into a consensual discussion and unnecessarily provide ID and blame officers for not knowing the law. It would seem there are some things about the law you don't understand.

    Then add into the mix Officer Goodguy who asks a very strangle leading question and apologizes. You must know his name, badge number or something right? Then you simply walk away, fuss about your treatment, but do nothing about it - how does that change anything?

    Have to admit I'm having trouble fitting some of these pieces together.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Well....never mind.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Somebody called"

    = 911 call recording
    = dispatcher records
    = dispatcher traffic
    = officer responding traffic
    = officer's report clearing the incident.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Come on, Grapeshot.....

    I'm surprised. For someone who is usually the calm voice of reason, I believe you've taken a temporarily time-out and landed a little harshly. The OP is obvious new and inexperienced with OC'ING, and for a first police encounter, anything that doesn't result in jail due to an inappropriate response is actually pretty good.

    As the knowledge of OC'ings legality widens, we'll inevitably attract new members that, at least, have the courage to actually participate in expressing their rights instead of simply sitting on the sidelines cheering.

    While I'll agree that several actions the OP took are 180 degrees away from what should have taken place, I'm not going to reply to him as If he's totally screwing things up. I'm also not going to reply as If he should have known exactly what to do. He's new. He probably isn't familiar with accepted practices. I'll choose to inform him so that If he ever has another police interaction, he'll be better prepared. Heck, MY first police encounter was simple, and didn't go very well. I got better at handling them. I learned. Not from folks disparaging my flaws, but at instructive information. I'll try to offer some:

    Keith0143:

    1) I noticed you replied that there wasn't any audio you knew of. I can guarantee the police are not going to record themselves denying you due process or your civil rights. On the remote chance they did, I can nearly guarantee that it wouldn't survive an "accident" for long. Therefore, the easiest way to remedy this lack of audio that "you know of" is simple: record it yourself. TA-DA! There is now audio you know of. Video is even better. It shows an actual account and dialogue from different participants is easily assigned. Video recorders are cheap. Audio recorders even cheaper.

    2) FOIA (freedom of information act) requests are easy. If there was a call to 911, or even a report to the non-emergency number, there WILL necessarily be a record of it. (Otherwise, how did the police show up in force If nothing was communicated to them?) Filing a proper FOIA request will get you transcripts and police reports regarding this incident. They have to give them to you. (Unless deemed an "ongoing investigation" which they like to try). It's the law.

    3) Unless you were knocked to the ground, cuffed, and stuffed into the back of a squad car, which the police will almost certainly do If you were obviously breaking the law, there must necessarily be an investigation in order to determine of a law has been broken. Therefore, until you are detained.......ALL POLICE INTERACTION IS CONSENSUAL. Meaning, until the officer tells you you are not free to go.......you are. Anything you tell them until you are detained is VOLUNTARY. The best way to determine whether or not you are being detained is simple: simply ASK THEM. " Am I being detained, officer?" .........two possible answers:

    #1 The officer informs you that you are NOT being detained...walk away. I find it polite to inform the officer of this while reaffirming that I am not being detained by telling him, "Since I am not detained, officer, I'm choosing to end this consensual contact by leaving."...or words thereabouts. If you haven't been arrested, you are obviously not breaking the law. (Remember: If you were, you'd be in handcuffs by now.) ANY INTERACTION IS VOLUNTARY.

    #2 If, at any point, the officer informs you that you ARE detained...guess what? YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT. DO NOT SPEAK, THEREFORE, OFFER THE OFFICER A REASON TO ARREST YOU! Remember: If you were breaking the law, you'd be in cuffs and on a ride to the station by now. Since you have been detained, the officer must...MUST....have reasonable articulable suspicion for doing so. (Carrying a gun doesn't cut it. He can't detain you for lawful activity without articulating what crime he suspects you of.) If he can't tell you what crime he suspects you of, HE is breaking the law. Since openly carrying a firearm is lawful......he's now "on the hook". It is mandatory that you are suspected of a crime in order for him to lawfully detain you. He has detained you. Therefore, If HE can't tell you why.....IT'S HIS ASS. He MUST cook up a crime. The only way for this to happen is for you to GIVE HIM A REASON. The only way for this to happen is If you, somehow, TALK YOUR WAY INTO IT. This can't happen If you EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.

    BTW: Did I mention that an audio recording of this would come in handy? Now......where might a person get one of those? I know where mine would come from.

    When you were approached by these officers, they began dancing all over your civil rights. Several wise actions from you could have really put them in a legal "pickle". I believe the "nice" officer might have suddenly realized this. Hence: he tried to "undance" his way out of the situation.

    You are still in the driver's seat. What do you wish to do? I'm sure there is documentation surrounding this incident. At the bare minimum, I would at least file a FOIA request with the department. Not only would this gain you the necessary information and documents If you do, indeed, wish to follow up. Even if you choose to do nothing further, it might still "put the fear of Jesus" into them, possibly leading to more sensitive handling of future encounters. (Such as dispatchers asking callers, "What is the armed person doing that is illegal?".)

    I'd ramble on further about how to file a FOIA request, but you can easily research this by Googling "How do I file a FOIA request.".

    Oh, and by the way: IANAL. Which you will see often here at OCDO meaning: I am not a lawyer. I am not giving legal advice, simply offering information that I feel is helpful, and in no way is guaranteed to actually be so.

    Good luck carrying. Welcome to the forum!

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    I appreciate all the information. This isent my first time OC'ing ive been stoped 1 other time and things went ALOT worse about 2 years ago. I know i could have done things a little better but when 5 police officers surrounded me i must admit it was intimidateing. Like i said before i saw the guy on the phone and figured he was calling 911, at which point i had everything planned out but when it actually came down to it the first cop completely threw me off. I will be fileing a report because your right, mabey they need a good scare and thell learn from this incident..

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I had just pulled an all-nighter ferreting out hidden spammers and working on my files - was in need of crashing - that is no excuse.

    I apologize to Keith0143 for appearing to be harsh with him - Superlite27 is absolutely correct.

    I over analyzed the situation as to what shoulda, coulda been done without proper consideration. Hind sight is always much clearer.

    Glad to have Keith on board, may he prosper here.

    Thanks Superlite for being the voice of moderation
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith0143 View Post
    I appreciate all the information. This isent my first time OC'ing ive been stoped 1 other time and things went ALOT worse about 2 years ago. I know i could have done things a little better but when 5 police officers surrounded me i must admit it was intimidateing. Like i said before i saw the guy on the phone and figured he was calling 911, at which point i had everything planned out but when it actually came down to it the first cop completely threw me off. I will be fileing a report because your right, mabey they need a good scare and thell learn from this incident..
    Find out if your local PD has cameras with microphones in their vehicles.
    You can file to have a copy of what happened to you if you know the time and date.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Wilkes-Barre PD does not have cameras or microphones in their cars.

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    Keith, I've learned, the hard way, that if you're going to open carry, you should have some kind of recording device. I keep my cell phone's voice recorder on, so in case something happens, all I have to do is hit a button, and it records audio. If I'm with family, I bring a DV camera with me. So far, I've only needed to use the audio recording once. Andyes, like Grape said (though I'm sure he meant to do it more nicely ), you need to follow up on this by contacting the shift commander, and if that fails, the chief of police.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

    Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

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    A few points about formal written complaints.

    First, even though the police seem to do nothing about a formal complaint, that does not mean nothing happened on their side of the table behind closed doors. The biggest thing that happens is that the police suddenly discover that a citizen really does know the law. "Oh snit! Somebody knows. Now we have to be careful." They can read law, too. They know the law. The problem was they thought the citizen didn't and that they could get away with a few things. After a formal complaint, even if they lie up and down and sideways and claim nothing happened, in the end, they do know. So, now they know you know. Now they gotta start paying attention.

    Next. It establishes a history. The last thing they want is a pattern of disregarding rights to be established. It makes lawsuits against them more winnable. After a legitimate formal complaint, they have to that little bit more careful not to stack up too many more. Ever similar well-grounded complaint is evidence against them.

    And, there may be good-cop supervisors who know the cop is a bad cop, but need the proof. They may actually be looking for a reason to move him aside, or tighten the screws on him. The genuine good cops deserve a working environment free of bad cops and bad cops' attitudes. A well-grounded written complaint can help isolate the bad cops for the good cops.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    When you file a complaint, it is not necessarily that you will benifit (but maybe you will). It will be the next guy that is not hasseled, or if the next guy is hasseled, it will be much easier for him to make a case against and agressive bully that just happens to wear a uniform,,,,and who knows, that "next guy" just might be you.

    I am fortunate in that I have OC for over 40 years without any hassels, but then OC has been legal here since statehood and is quite common.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    When you file a complaint, it is not necessarily that you will benifit (but maybe you will). It will be the next guy that is not hasseled, or if the next guy is hasseled, it will be much easier for him to make a case against and agressive bully that just happens to wear a uniform,,,,and who knows, that "next guy" just might be you.

    I am fortunate in that I have OC for over 40 years without any hassels, but then OC has been legal here since statehood and is quite common.
    Oh? Bragging huh? Well, here in Virginia, OC has been legal since the founding of Jamestown. 1607. Before statehood. Before commonwealth-hood. Not much later than the spanish conquistadors. Nyahh.

    (I'm just jealous that you've been OCing forty years.)
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-31-2012 at 11:08 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith0143 View Post
    So today me and my friend Sam who you may know if your from the Wilkes-Barre area due to him being on the front page of the paper a week ago after being held at gun point and almost robbed but he had his pistol on him and stopped it. Well we were open carrying along the streets of Wilkes-Barre today when we passed a house with people on the porch. We noticed some dirty looks and then one of them picked up his phone right after. We figured he was calling the cops but we knew our right's and continued walking. About 5 minutes later we noticed a cop next to us yelling to stop and dont move. Ahead of us another cop blocking the end of the road and about 3 more behind us. At that point the officer next to us said "you cant have your guns hanging out like that" and then immediately demanded ID'S from both of us. I argued with him and said i am opencarrying and have no need to show him my gun permit. After a few minutes of argueing i gave it to him and he started calling it in. Shortly after another officer walked behind me and was listening to me argue with the other officer about my right's and he immediately cut us off and said "Hes right, im not going to argue about this on scene" at the point the angry officer got into his car, slammed the door and actually burned out. The cop who clearly knows the law turned to me and asked if i felt my rights were violated by the previous officer's. I replied YES I DO. He then handed our ID'S back and apologized for everything and sent us on our way. Ive always CC'D due to the fact i knew something like this would happen. Sure enough these so called "cops" cause all this drama and dont know the damn law!!
    it is unfortunate that some police officers appear to be so unprofessional and act like a baby re open carry rights. On the other hand, most are not that way and as we educate more people on this issue over the years, open carry has become far less controvercial. Carry on!

  19. #19
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith0143
    when 5 police officers surrounded me I must admit it was intimidating
    Which is one more thing they did wrong & need to stop.
    Chilling the public's desire or ability peacefully to exercise their rights is a crime.
    Especially if they have a history of similar illegal actions, they're making a great federal civil rights case against themselves.
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    File a complaint ... do it in writing ... send it Certified ...

    but do it right ... consider talking with an attorney or a pro-se experienced in such events BEFORE you do.

    The idea here is as was just noted, is to do it right - make it stick ... so they'll never do that again.

    tyc

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith0143 View Post
    There was no audio record and as far as i know there was no incident report ither. I was thinken about fileing a complaint but i dont see that going anywhere..
    I have thought of getting one of these before; I really must get it done....

    http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/hi...-recorder.html
    Last edited by F350; 04-02-2012 at 08:05 PM.

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    You did well for your first enconter

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith0143 View Post
    There was no audio record and as far as i know there was no incident report ither. I was thinken about fileing a complaint but i dont see that going anywhere..
    Recording is very useful. A complaint is very handy for the numerous reasons mentioned.

    Welcome aboard!

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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I have thought of getting one of these before; I really must get it done....l]
    If you or anyone you know of who is interested in an inexpensive camera or voice recorder ... visit a few "flea markets" in your area.

    You wouldn't believe some of the very low prices now being asked for those "outdated" cell phones. They're fully functional - except for the telephone service itself.

    The vast majority of these "old" cell phone have built-in voice recorders, as well as cameras AND video recorders! They also have the 911 function which could save your life or that of someone else.

    Several month ago I bought one of those Motorola v3xx "clamshell" cell phones for just fifty cents ($00.50)! For another $5.00 I purchased a charging cord and the phone charges right off of my computer with no problem!

    If you want an inexpensive voice recorder, it just won't get any less expensive.

    tyc

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