Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 93

Thread: Vandalia LEO Encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Miami County Ohio
    Posts
    113

    Vandalia LEO Encounter

    So I have decided to post my negative encounter from yesterday, I have the cruiser cam footage on the way and will post when i get it, before you read this i would like to make a couple points: First when the officer told me he was only requesting my id i felt a little intimidated so i let him have it but i really didn't want to, second his little rant about the disorderly conduct and inducing panic i already didn't agree with. All i was thinking about was getting my food home and in the freezer. Let me know your thoughts on this, I believe this was an illegal Terry Stop.
    Some of the conversation may not be in exact chronological order I came home and typed this out immediately to get it written down before i forgot any details.

    On Wednesday March 28 at about 6:00pm I was placing groceries into my vehicle after shopping at the Kroger store located at 780 Northwoods Blvd. in Vandalia. I returned the cart to the corral and was making my way back to my vehicle when I got next to my vehicle I noticed a Vandalia P.D. cruiser pull into the lane I was parked in. The officer pulled in front of my car and blocked my vehicle in and got out and ordered me to stay where I was and to place my hands on my head, I complied. He then approached me and asked me what I was doing. I told him I had just finished loading my groceries into my vehicle and was getting ready to leave. He then told me he was going to detain me and placed my hands behind my back and placed handcuffs on them. He asked me if I usually open carried a firearm, I told him yes. At some point around this time another officer arrived which the first officer whose name was Robert W. Brazel informed me was his sergeant. The first officer then asked if I had an I.D. I asked if he was requesting it or demanding it and he told me at that time he was only requesting it. I gave the officer permission to retrieve my wallet from my front left pants pocket and to retrieve my driver’s license and my CCW permit. The officer asked me why the weapon wasn’t concealed and I told him I carried it openly because it was easier to get to in case I needed it and If I was wearing a jacket it made it easier to get to. The officer then informed me his sergeant (Sgt. Gary L. Jackson) was going to watch me while he ran my info. I asked officer Brazel if he had just happened to see me or if a complaint was called in, he told me he was just driving through the parking lot. He told me you don’t just see a man with a gun strapped to him every day and that was why he had stopped me, not that he felt I had committed any crime. After returning from his cruiser officer Brazel informed me he was going to remove the cuffs and I was not to touch my firearm. I complied with this order. He then gave me what he said was “friendly advise” and that he was very surprised that nobody had called. He also told me that if somebody had called and been upset that I would be arrested for disorderly conduct or inducing panic and taken to the county jail. He told me the issuing county for my concealed carry permit would be notified and at their digression revoked. He then returned my I.D. and CCW to my wallet and Filled out an interview card for his boss and asked me my personal information including home address, phone number, employer, and any scars or tattoos. He then told me I was free to go and the two officers left and I then left.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Let me see if I have the facts straight...
    Officer Robert W. Brazel stopped and detained you, in handcuffs, to investigate possible criminal behavior
    and then admitted that he had no Articulable, Reasonable Suspicion that you were either engaged in criminal behavior, had recently committed a crime or were about to commit a crime?

    I would have told Ofc. Brazel where he could stick his "friendly advice". I wonder if the reason that nobody called was that everyone else was smarter than he and realized you had committed no crime? Oh, wait, HE knew you had committed no crime, too.

    It sounds like he just admitted he had No Reasonable Articulable Suspicion of any wrongdoing yet he stopped and Seized you and your property.
    File for information
    File a complaint
    Go see his Captain, PERSONALLY if possible
    ... in short, do all you can to make his life "inconvenient" for as long as possible.

    and just Maybe, he'll think next time before doing anything that asinine.

    If it ever happens again, and I Hope you'll continue to exercise your right to self-protection, I would NOT cooperate as you did. All that does is encourage such poor behavior on their part.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-29-2012 at 06:49 PM. Reason: calming down?

  3. #3
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Handcuffed, he was "requested" and gave permission.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    2917.11 Disorderly conduct

    (A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following:

    (1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior;

    (2) Making unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture, or display or communicating unwarranted and grossly abusive language to any person;

    (3) Insulting, taunting, or challenging another, under circumstances in which that conduct is likely to provoke a violent response;

    (4) Hindering or preventing the movement of persons on a public street, road, highway, or right-of-way, or to, from, within, or upon public or private property, so as to interfere with the rights of others, and by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender;

    (5) Creating a condition that is physically offensive to persons or that presents a risk of physical harm to persons or property, by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender.

    (B) No person, while voluntarily intoxicated, shall do either of the following:
    ..... skipped as I imagine you weren't drunk off your butt....

    My conclusion is that Officer Friendly was either talking out of his fourth point of contact, or exceedingly ill informed about a subject he should ordinarily be intimately familiar with.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    2917.31 Inducing panic
    (A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:

    (1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;

    (2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;

    (3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.

    ....(B) and (C) skipped as those are the exceptions, explanations and penalties.....

    I think you can guess my conclusion about Officer Friendly?

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,929
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Let me see if I have the facts straight...
    Officer Robert W. Brazel stopped and detained you, in handcuffs, to investigate possible criminal behavior
    and then admitted that he had no Articulable, Reasonable Suspicion that you were either engaged in criminal behavior, had recently committed a crime or were about to commit a crime?

    I would have told Ofc. Brazel where he could stick his "friendly advice". I wonder if the reason that nobody called was that everyone else was smarter than he and realized you had committed no crime? Oh, wait, HE knew you had committed no crime, too.

    It sounds like he just admitted he had No Reasonable Articulable Suspicion of any wrongdoing yet he stopped and Seized you and your property.
    File for information
    File a complaint
    Go see his Captain, PERSONALLY if possible
    ... in short, do all you can to make his life "inconvenient" for as long as possible.

    and just Maybe, he'll think next time before doing anything that asinine.

    If it ever happens again, and I Hope you'll continue to exercise your right to self-protection, I would NOT cooperate as you did. All that does is encourage such poor behavior on their part.
    +10

  7. #7
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    A member of the public was certainly inconvenienced and it was definitely with willful disregard.... but (le sigh) no evacuations.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-29-2012 at 08:48 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    226
    Request a meeting with their Captain and discuss the issue with a remedy. If that doesn't help, file a complaint through internal affairs. If no results are obtain there then pursue legal action; "Violation of Civil Liberties while under colors", "illegal detainment" etc.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    949
    Quote Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
    Request a meeting with their Captain and discuss the issue with a remedy. If that doesn't help, file a complaint through internal affairs. If no results are obtain there then pursue legal action; "Violation of Civil Liberties while under colors", "illegal detainment" etc.
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983

    42 USC § 1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights

    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,735
    Quote Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
    Request a meeting with their Captain and discuss the issue with a remedy. If that doesn't help, file a complaint through internal affairs. If no results are obtain there then pursue legal action; "Violation of Civil Liberties while under colors", "illegal detainment" etc.
    This is a waste of time. Asking the police to police themselves is like the fox guarding the hen house. This only works in the rarest of cases. I have been through this, I have learned how to get their attention quickly and once you get their attention you will see their true colors.

  11. #11
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Quote Originally Posted by RCall
    Let me know your thoughts on this, I believe this was an illegal Terry Stop.
    Absolutely I agree with the rest of the posters so far - this was completely illegal. You were detained, arrested even, with what the officer admits was no RAS of a crime.

    The officer pulled in front of my car and blocked my vehicle in and got out and ordered me to stay where I was and to place my hands on my head
    "What crime do you suspect me of committing, officer?"
    Approaching random people & ordering them about is not legal. Imagine if he'd done that to someone merely for having a non-majority skin color, or a non-majority religion, or carrying a newspaper, or wearing an "I voted" sticker.

    He then approached me and asked me what I was doing.
    "I'm getting in my car & going home, once you move your car."
    Kidnapping... Except that it's not likely to stick against one of the Brotherhood.

    He then told me he was going to detain me and placed my hands behind my back and placed handcuffs on them.
    "Why are you detaining me, officer?"
    "What crime do you suspect me of committing, officer?"

    The first officer then asked if I had an I.D... at that time he was only requesting it.
    Riiiiight... you're in handcuffs, he's told you he's detaining you, but it's only a "request".
    Totality of circumstances says it was a demand.

    The officer asked me why the weapon wasn’t concealed
    "Because my shirt isn't over it." [duh!]
    "Because I don't want to."
    "Because I'm not carrying my license." [Depending on the laws of OH.]

    you don’t just see a man with a gun strapped to him every day and that was why he had stopped me, not that he felt I had committed any crime.
    Bingo!
    He admitted he had no reason to stop you other than your peaceful exercise of a protected civil right.
    See post above, about "color of law" civil rights violations.

    He then gave me what he said was “friendly advice”... [snipped lecture] He then returned my I.D. and CCW to my wallet and filled out an interview card for his boss and asked me my personal information including home address, phone number, employer, and any scars or tattoos. He then told me I was free to go and the two officers left and I then left.
    So only that last part of info gathering was consensual, since theoretically you could have left once he gave you back your property. He could have gotten the address from your DL, and none of that is stuff he needs to know, esp. since he's admitted you weren't committing a crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    226
    I wonder if one of the cops was a transplant from New England?
    Last edited by Makarov; 04-02-2012 at 09:35 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Miami County Ohio
    Posts
    113
    First off i would like to say thank you for all of your support it does mean a lot to me hearing the positive comments.(Positive for me negative for the LEO) also i would like to add that on the Calls for service by event number document given to me by the records dept. which contains the call times, officers involved, comments.....etc. etc. in the field marked "probable cause" there was no entry made. the only relevant comments entered by the officer was and i quote from the sheet "ONE SECURED/MALE SUBJECT STANDING IN LOT WITH A GUN" I am still waiting for the copy of the dash camera footage and radio traffic(I wouldn't be surprised if it was "deleted" i know after some time they record over themselves.) I am also glad i not to buy ice cream i did look at some but talked myself out of it, i would have been even more inconvenienced if it had melted. thank you for all the tips on other comments i could have made during the stop i will for sure use them to my advantage if this happens again to me. This is the same grocery store i have done my shopping at for about 4-5 years now. Many of the employees know my face and I have opened carried there for about 6 months now.(I do check to see if they are doing wine tastings first every time.) and never had any problems, so yeah the only person who was "upset" was the officer. Finally, yeah if he was only able to request my I.D. not able to demand it due to no probable cause then how did he feel was he able to stop me in the first place. (He wasn't)

  14. #14
    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Miami County Ohio
    Posts
    113
    the records dept just called after my last post and told me the video was ready im going to get it right now
    Last edited by RCall; 03-30-2012 at 04:28 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Elizabethton, TN
    Posts
    795
    keep us posted!
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Two things: 1) pay attention to what Color of Law has said - he's been through these things, and can certainly help you plan strategy, and 2) start using paragraphs in your posts - it makes them much more readable.

    Keep us posted.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Flippercon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Virginia Beach
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    the records dept just called after my last post and told me the video was ready im going to get it right now
    So did the video get uploaded?

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    ...He also told me that if somebody had called and been upset that I would be arrested for disorderly conduct or inducing panic and taken to the county jail. He told me the issuing county for my concealed carry permit would be notified and at their digression revoked...
    I believe he meant "discretion" (not "digression"), but either way he is either ignorant or a liar - his statement is false.
    Last edited by BB62; 03-31-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member William Fisher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oxford, Ohio
    Posts
    238
    I need to get a recorder.

  20. #20
    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Miami County Ohio
    Posts
    113
    The wait is over......
    This is the link to the video. I have posted the video exactly as it was given to me by the city. I did not edit the sound out at the beginning, they did.

    http://youtu.be/sWoVrkSpE58

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,887
    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    The wait is over......
    This is the link to the video. I have posted the video exactly as it was given to me by the city. I did not edit the sound out at the beginning, they did.

    http://youtu.be/sWoVrkSpE58
    Not only is the sound missing, but so is the beginning of the encounter. You need the WHOLE encounter, sound included. Also, the officers talk to each other at the end of the encounter - that would be good to have also.

    And with a CCW you have to conceal, eh? (~ 1:15)


    Is that your radio running? If it isn't, then it seems like an attempt to distort/conceal the entire conversation.
    Last edited by BB62; 03-31-2012 at 03:59 PM.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,616
    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    The wait is over......
    This is the link to the video. I have posted the video exactly as it was given to me by the city. I did not edit the sound out at the beginning, they did.

    http://youtu.be/sWoVrkSpE58
    Appreciate the link. Am sorry that you consented to giving your ID, but also understand the choice. Hope that you will follow through with a formal complaint.

    Also suspect that the deletion of the early part of the audio was a CYA move on their part - doubt that such editing meets the criteria of your request.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
    Request a meeting with their Captain and discuss the issue with a remedy..
    Waste of time .... lawsuit is only remedy ... or just forget about it

  24. #24
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    rural religious usa
    Posts
    670
    not being technically adept, but could the missing sound at the beginning have resulted from 'someone' adding the k99.1 country music sound track...sorry you had to endure that encounter...sigh!

    wabbit

    ps: again not being technically adept, but wonder if a check w/the station to validate times those titles were broadcast would match the times on the video?
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 03-31-2012 at 04:45 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Rocky River, OH, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,086
    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    This is a waste of time. Asking the police to police themselves is like the fox guarding the hen house. This only works in the rarest of cases. I have been through this, I have learned how to get their attention quickly and once you get their attention you will see their true colors.
    I couldn't agree more.

    Police who do these things and their supervision which permits it couldn't care less about the law OR any citizen's rights.

    These things require serious negative reinforcement. This comes ONLY through formal complaints, civil litigation, public humiliation or in some cases, all three. That's what it took in the Harless incident.

    Those cops don't deserve to be cut one iota of slack. They, their department and the city must be caused as much pain and suffering, administratively and civilly as possible.

    Only THEN will they figure out that they HAVE to pull their heads out of their behinds.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •