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Thread: Vandalia LEO Encounter

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statesman View Post
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983

    42 USC § 1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights

    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.
    Does any plaintiff ever win a 1983 lawsuit?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Throw in 42 USC § 1985 - CONSPIRACY TO INTERFERE WITH CIVIL RIGHTS and include the good sergeant as well
    Add in 42 USC § 1986 - ACTION FOR NEGLECT TO PREVENT against the shift supervisor, and every administrative person up to and including the mayor and city attorney.
    Apparently we have a second volunteer willing to put-up $20 grand to get this started.

    Would it not be a better goal to get the state to train all these officers in the law/Constitution.

  3. #53
    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Would it not be a better goal to get the state to train all these officers in the law/Constitution.
    +1

  4. #54
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    Have you done a follow-up records request for the full video, etc.?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargateranch View Post
    Heads up on the sound the Panasonic cameras that most agencies use record video constantly. When the camera is activated it goes back 15 second or 30 depending on settings. The sound is not recorded constant so when the sounds starts that's when the recorder was activated. The video prior to the sound is just that constant recording without sound. It looks like the recorder was activated late but not edited.

    Sucks you had a bad experience, I hope they remedy the mistake.
    Not that I am doubting you but if the camera system has a buffer, the audio should already synced with the video in the buffer. I work on two video systems that are designed for transit use and they both operate this way. To my way of thinking, if they work as you describe, it would raise many questions as to the validity of the recording. Both of the systems I describe have anti editing features built in although both will make a plain jane "not ready to go to court" avi or mpeg.

    To the original poster: If you need help lifting audio out of that mess, let me know. I do this often for my agency and have software+experience if needed.

    Here are the two systems I am referring to :
    http://www.avt-usa.com/ Apollo Video Systems
    http://www.safetyvision.com/ Safety Vision
    Last edited by half_life1052; 04-15-2012 at 10:53 PM. Reason: adding links

  6. #56
    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Have you done a follow-up records request for the full video, etc.?
    At this point in time I have had a small development in the matter, but nothing I can discuss publicly at this time.

    I will post more information when I can.

  7. #57
    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
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    Approximately two weeks ago a lieutenant from the department called and left me a voice mail. In the message he stated that he had been made aware of the incident and had seen the video online and also saw there was, "Quite a bit of discussion on the incident." on this forum. He also stated that it looked like I was looking for more information on the issue. We assume he was referring to the fact that we didn't believe I was given the whole tape. We decided it was in my best interest at that point in time not to return the call because we were still unsure of what action we were going to take and we believe there might of been a hidden motive to the call.

    Secondly, this past Monday I met with the city mayor and city manager in the council chambers before the council meeting. When the mayor entered before the meeting started she immediately approached me. She asked me what my business was at the meeting and I informed her of why I was in attendance. She conveyed to me that the city would much rather handle the situation in another setting. She introduced me to the city manager who invited me to contact him the next day (Tuesday) regarding the issue. I departed without addressing the council publicly. Later that night I recognized the only other person in attendance as a newspaper reporter, I believe.

    Yesterday I did contact the city manager. In the conversation we covered several topics relative to the issue at hand. He stated that he had been previously made aware of the incident and it was handled improperly. Also, he apologized for the actions of the officer, and relayed that the city had not had any prior incidents regarding open carry. The manager also confirmed that the officer who initiated the stop had been advised that the issue was not handled correctly. I informed him that the training of officers in the matter of open carry was all I desired out of the issue. The city has also passed down new training and protocol through the ranks so all officers on the department know how to handle open carry and that this was a learning experience for the city, he affirmed to me. I asked the city manager if training records would reflect what he had just informed me. He declared that they would, and gave me the contact information for the chief of police so when those records become public I can contact him.

    In the conference I also inquired about the cruiser cam video and audio. After consulting the police chief on how the cameras work, he told me that there are two ways to activate the camera/audio. One is when the officer activates the emergency light bar equipped on the vehicle. The second is that there is a button somewhere on the officers belt which can be pressed to activate the camera. It was after the officer cuffed me that he activated the camera from his persons. I found it strange that the officer didn't find it necessary to activate the camera until that point. The city manager affirmed that I had indeed received the entire footage of the event.

    At this point in time, as long as the training records do indicate that training in the sensitivity of open carry have become standard protocol at the department, we feel satisfied with the outcome of the matter.



    LOOK I learned about paragraphs!!!!!
    I know there might be some commas out of place though.
    Last edited by RCall; 04-18-2012 at 07:22 PM.

  8. #58
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    --snip--

    At this point in time, as long as the training records do indicate that training in the sensitivity of open carry have become standard protocol at the department, we feel satisfied with the outcome of the matter.



    LOOK I learned about paragraphs!!!!!
    I know there might be some commas out of place though.
    You just earned 2 "atta boys"

    Good job!
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You just earned 2 "atta boys"

    Good job!
    +1

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    ...At this point in time, as long as the training records do indicate that training in the sensitivity of open carry have become standard protocol at the department, we feel satisfied with the outcome of the matter...
    Nice work.

    It's easy for them to say what they have/will do, but as you indicated, it's necessary to confirm the accuracy of their statements.

    I suggest that unless their training indicates ALL of the following with regard to OC, it's not complete:

    1) Open carry is legal

    2) Consensual conversations are fine, but a non-consensual or Terry stop is not justified unless the officer can reasonably conclude (and articulate) that a crime has or is about to occur

    3) The taking of an individual's firearm is a mark of a non-consensual stop

    4) An officer can ask for ID, but not demand it, nor can any other identifying information be demanded unless the officer can reasonably conclude (and articulate) that a crime has or is about to occur

    5) Threats of possible charges of inducing panic and/or disorderly conduct are not acceptable


    It's late, so if I missed something, please add to or correct my list.



    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    ...LOOK I learned about paragraphs!!!!!...
    Nice work on them too!

  11. #61
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    Good job! I'd request also a hard copy of the specific training the officers receive.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  12. #62
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    Did the city manager have all that stuff he stated to you, given to you in writing and signed by he, the mayor and the chief of police?

    Did you record the conversation?

    ....adjusting my tinfoil hat....it IS government ya know. Don't trust them one iota.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

    Politicians are the tyrants 3000 miles away; thug cops are 3000 tyrants 1 mile away. (Adapted from Benjamin Martin, fictional character extraordinaire)

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Did the city manager have all that stuff he stated to you, given to you in writing and signed by he, the mayor and the chief of police?

    Did you record the conversation?

    ....adjusting my tinfoil hat....it IS government ya know. Don't trust them one iota.
    By the way, training records can be falsified, easily so.
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

    Politicians are the tyrants 3000 miles away; thug cops are 3000 tyrants 1 mile away. (Adapted from Benjamin Martin, fictional character extraordinaire)

  14. #64
    Regular Member Ironbar's Avatar
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    What I found interesting about that video was that the cop's radio was blaring in the background so that the conversation could barely be heard. Nice to way to cover their a$$es in case they say something out of line.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    By the way, training records can be falsified, easily so.
    But to what end?

    If they falsify that somebody attended and that cop violates somebody's rights, they pierce their own officer's qualified immunity.

    If they falsify that somebody didn't attend, they open themselves up to suit for failing to properly train and supervise.

    Heads you win, tails they lose.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironbar View Post
    What I found interesting about that video was that the cop's radio was blaring in the background so that the conversation could barely be heard. Nice to way to cover their a$$es in case they say something out of line.
    That's a policy that needs enacted and enforced: No recreational radio playing during a stop.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

  17. #67
    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironbar View Post
    What I found interesting about that video was that the cop's radio was blaring in the background so that the conversation could barely be heard. Nice to way to cover their a$$es in case they say something out of line.
    I have found that the audio from the car mic plays through the right channel and the audio from the mic on the officer plays through the left channel. If you go into your sound settings and move the slide bar to left channel only it cuts out all of the radio traffic from the FM radio and the police radio. At one point sooner or later on a rainy day I will fix that on the video and edit out the cars mic.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Did the city manager have all that stuff he stated to you, given to you in writing and signed by he, the mayor and the chief of police?

    Did you record the conversation?

    ....adjusting my tinfoil hat....it IS government ya know. Don't trust them one iota.
    No he did not, but as long as the training records indicate he was telling me the truth we are happy. (Unless it happens again, to anybody.)

  18. #68
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    This weekend I'm suppose to be spending time in the Dayton/Vandalia area with friends. Because of what has transpired I thought I would take a moment and call Vandalia's Police department to find out their stance relating to open carry. I was surprised that the police chief, Douglas Knight, answered the phone. I informed him of my plans and asked if I should be concerned with open carry.

    Due to the incident he assured me that the officers have been brought up to date on the Ohio gun laws. He also wanted to point out that they also briefed the dispatchers. If they get a call from a concerned resident they would investigate. But, it is to be handled in the politest manner possible. He also ensured me that if anyone felt they were not dealt with fairly they should contact him directly to resolve this matter.

    It should be noted that the chief was very polite and did not demonstrate any hostility towards open carry. However, he also did not convey or interject his personal biases if any.

    As someone told me once, when open carrying it is better to kill them with kindness. But, that does not require you to forfeit your rights.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    This weekend I'm suppose to be spending time in the Dayton/Vandalia area with friends. Because of what has transpired I thought I would take a moment and call Vandalia's Police department to find out their stance relating to open carry. I was surprised that the police chief, Douglas Knight, answered the phone. I informed him of my plans and asked if I should be concerned with open carry.

    Due to the incident he assured me that the officers have been brought up to date on the Ohio gun laws. He also wanted to point out that they also briefed the dispatchers. If they get a call from a concerned resident they would investigate. But, it is to be handled in the politest manner possible. He also ensured me that if anyone felt they were not dealt with fairly they should contact him directly to resolve this matter.

    It should be noted that the chief was very polite and did not demonstrate any hostility towards open carry. However, he also did not convey or interject his personal biases if any.

    As someone told me once, when open carrying it is better to kill them with kindness. But, that does not require you to forfeit your rights.
    Well done.

    That is the way that all Chiefs should respond. They effect the tone and tenor of the entire department.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  20. #70
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    I agree, but Federal court is unfortunately not that place.
    AND WHY NOT?

    My philosophy in life is "You hit me with a switsh and I'll beat you with a baseball bat; I rarely get switched twice"!

    OK; just finished reading the entire thread, sound like things have been handled satisfactory; even I would not continue legal action.
    Last edited by F350; 04-20-2012 at 09:44 PM.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    ...No he did not, but as long as the training records indicate he was telling me the truth we are happy. (Unless it happens again, to anybody.)
    Agreed.

    PM me when you get the records - I know another department that needs to get their act together.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCall View Post
    I have found that the audio from the car mic plays through the right channel and the audio from the mic on the officer plays through the left channel. If you go into your sound settings and move the slide bar to left channel only it cuts out all of the radio traffic from the FM radio and the police radio. At one point sooner or later on a rainy day I will fix that on the video and edit out the cars mic.
    I had to do the exact same thing with another police audio recording -- running two mics into the left/right audio channels seems to be the common convention for in-car equipment. Fortunately, it's easy to fix. I took your recording, stripped out the right channel and copied the left one over to make a cleaned-up stereo file: Vandalia20120328.mp3.

    As for the "resolution," I wouldn't agree that training is going to solve this problem. Training is the appropriate remedy for ignorance. The officer already knew, by his own admission, that open carry is a constitutionally-protected right, and that it's a relatively common practice. He knew you were doing nothing illegal, but decided to forcibly impose his own opinions upon you, simply because he figured he could get away with it. The proper way to address a willful violation of the law is through punishment, not training.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosta Dojen View Post
    As for the "resolution," I wouldn't agree that training is going to solve this problem. Training is the appropriate remedy for ignorance. The officer already knew, by his own admission, that open carry is a constitutionally-protected right, and that it's a relatively common practice. He knew you were doing nothing illegal, but decided to forcibly impose his own opinions upon you, simply because he figured he could get away with it. The proper way to address a willful violation of the law is through punishment, not training.
    Let me just say that I don't believe this officer will be pulling this stunt again.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tosta Dojen View Post
    ...As for the "resolution," I wouldn't agree that training is going to solve this problem. Training is the appropriate remedy for ignorance. The officer already knew, by his own admission, that open carry is a constitutionally-protected right, and that it's a relatively common practice. He knew you were doing nothing illegal, but decided to forcibly impose his own opinions upon you, simply because he figured he could get away with it. The proper way to address a willful violation of the law is through punishment, not training.
    Thanks for posting the audio. I have to admit that I didn't listen to the single-channel audio before now.

    Not only is the content VERY disturbing, but even with the music/radio stripped out the microphone doesn't pick things up as well as I figure it should.

    Certainly not because I distrust the OP, but we all need the entire tape so as to confirm the OP's timeline/description. One thing is clear, though - the handcuffs are already on when the officer "requests" to see his ID (uh-huh).

    I'm of two minds - use the tape to "educate" other departments or use a legal settlement to do the same thing. Along those lines, maybe it would be worth seeing if this kind of behavior is par for the course for this department, or is the exception.

    There is no excuse for the commercial radio to be on in the officer's car at the time of the stop. This needs to be addressed in addition to whatever other procedures are developed.

    Thanks again for posting the tape. It was eye-opening.
    Last edited by BB62; 04-22-2012 at 10:49 AM.

  25. #75
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    That worked out well. It didn't cost $20K, to get started.. (Where did that figure come from COL?) I have yet to inquire price with the lawyer, but similar incidents I've read about, 5K will start you out. If you can find a lawyer.

    I would also like to compliment the OP for chasing this like he did. You are hereby awarded the right to Host a M&G picnic at a place of your choosing.. Carry On!

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