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Thread: Ung vs. Zimmerman

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Ung vs. Zimmerman

    This thread may not stay in the Virginia forum, and that's fine, but I wanted us to get a look at it first.

    During these past few days of controversy, I can't help but recall the case of Gerald Ung, and compare the similarities and differences in his case to that of Zimmerman.

    Ung: minority man, shot attacker, a rich white man, who is well connected.
    Zimmerman: minority man, shot alleged attacker, black boy of unknown wealth or connections.

    Ung: immediately arrested, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, despite multiple eyewitness accounts and film of entire incident.
    Zimmerman: questioned, released, claim of self-defense convinces prosecuting attorney that conviction is not possible.

    Ung: after a laughable trial, jury acquits in under an hour, including lunch break. (IIRC) Civil litigation now in progress.
    Zimmerman: despite low probability of conviction in a court of law, Zimmerman is tried and convicted in the media and in the minority communities, never stood a chance at a fair evaluation of the facts. Civil action remains to be seen.


    All this proves to me is that racism is alive and well in 2012 America. And that is extremely sad.

    TFred

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This thread may not stay in the Virginia forum, and that's fine, but I wanted us to get a look at it first.

    During these past few days of controversy, I can't help but recall the case of Gerald Ung, and compare the similarities and differences in his case to that of Zimmerman.

    Ung: minority man, shot attacker, a rich white man, who is well connected.
    Zimmerman: minority man, shot alleged attacker, black boy of unknown wealth or connections.

    Ung: immediately arrested, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, despite multiple eyewitness accounts and film of entire incident.
    Zimmerman: questioned, released, claim of self-defense convinces prosecuting attorney that conviction is not possible.

    Ung: after a laughable trial, jury acquits in under an hour, including lunch break. (IIRC) Civil litigation now in progress.
    Zimmerman: despite low probability of conviction in a court of law, Zimmerman is tried and convicted in the media and in the minority communities, never stood a chance at a fair evaluation of the facts. Civil action remains to be seen.


    All this proves to me is that racism is alive and well in 2012 America. And that is extremely sad.

    TFred


    Yes, thats what my dad and uncle said, and you don't hear about the stories of kids dying in chicago from gang violence, they want to spin it and make it look like CCW holders are bad. I don't know whats the case with zimmerman though must wait and see.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  3. #3
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    I have been keeping an eye on the events as they unfold in the Z case. It is truly a shame that the people are demanding and making threats to have the case handled quicker. They are not giving the cops a chance to check things out. They have already convicted him by opinion and innuendo.

    So many people are against him and I suspect a few are making stuff up so they can join in.

    From what I know from hearing the 9-1-1 tapes it does not seem to play out like they want you to. What do you think about this?

    Z is aware of break-ins and sees a stranger lurking between homes, during the rain, hiding his face with a hoodie. IDK about you guys... I would be a little suspicious too. Z calls the police and calmly reports what he sees and tries to keep the Trayvon in sight so they can find him. Z has no interest in making contact even if he is armed, like many of us are every day.

    Trayvon notices Z, starts staring at him, and approaches Z while keeping his hand in his waistband of his pants. I suspect this was to intimidate Z and making Z think Trayvon was strapped. Trayvon eventually runs off to get out of sight.

    Z says he will meet the cops back at his truck parked on the street. Somehow.... the two meet up and contact is made. Did the stanger double back around to confront Z or did Z decide to approach the stranger in direct contradiction of what he told police when he said he would met them at his truck going out of his way to tell them there? Z could have made contact at any time before or during the call so why now? I suspect Trayvon doubled back around to confront Z.

    Z says he was attacked and knocked to the ground by Trayvon. On another 9-1-1 tape you hear someone calling out for help. It is either Z or Trayvon. Z said he was on the ground getting beat up. He could have easily just shot Trayvon before a fist fight. People claim Trayvon was calling out for help and the gunshot made him stop. I suspect calling out for help stopped because Z used his firearm to end it and he no longer needed to call for help that never came.


    That could have been any of us getting put on the ground and beat badly. At what point do we stop taking a beating and take the shot?

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    <snip> All this proves to me is that racism is alive and well in 2012 America. And that is extremely sad.
    I disagree. There will always be prejudice since that is a human trait that is ingrained in us so that we can handle new situations based on our past experiences. If I eat strawberries and then break out in hives, I will be prejudiced against strawberries in the future. Everyone uses prejudice every day sometimes it offends others in the case of race. Heck I was even prejudice against names for my daughters based on people I knew in the past that I didn't like and didn't want that name for my daughter.

    Now as for the media they proclaim from the rooftops if it is a minority being accosted but don't say a peep if it is the other way around. Also the DOJ will prosecute white on black crime but not black on white. Look at this article about a 13 year old boy that was lit on fire by two minority kids. http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/when-raci...snt-make-news/ Also the (current occupant of the oval office) called for an full investigation of the Zimmerman case but didn't mention the other one. Hmmm seems odd that the president would choose to get involved with one and not the other!

    Back when the Matthew Shepard killing happened, which was a drug deal gone bad and had nothing to do with his homosexuality, the media didn't mention anything about the 13 year old boy that was kidnapped and repeatedly raped until he suffocated by two homosexual men. Yet we get hate crimes and a (bad) law named after Matthew. I can go looking for that article if needed.

    There will always be some level of racism in the world not just America. I believe we have come a long way forward but race-baiters like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson make their living from formenting conflict. Facts aren't needed in their world just emotion.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 03-30-2012 at 08:40 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    The media knows how to run with what will get a buzz going and generate interest. Interest equals ratings and that equals money! It is not about reporting the news anymore. It is about reporting the news that will make the most money.

    I agree with you, in part, in regards to not eating strawberries. But remember this, as it is more important.

    While YOU may break out in hives, I will not. And I am smart enough to know this and decide for myself. But there are many stupid people out there that you can tell about the connection of berries and hives. They will believe you and run with that having never experienced it for themselves. Never giving berries a chance. It comes down to ignorance and being gullible.

    And remember that this is not the first time the president and spoke up on matters he has no business getting involved in. Remember his comment about the cop acting stupidly? This was a white cop and a black homeowner.

    There are many cases where the Trayvon and Zimmerman roles are reversed and it is not a big deal. Nothing is said. Sharpton, Spike Lee, and Obama remain silent because the they have no connection to the victim.

    I am not taking either side in this case and from what I have heard so far I am leaning in one direction as being most probable.

    And TFRED... I think you are kinda right. Racism still exists because it is a great tool that you can use to scare others. I do not know anyone that hate any other race. But I have seen time and time again people of color throw out race and being the reason they are the target of whatever. So yes, it still lives. But at the choice of those who were the target a long time ago. And let's be honest, it works! And it is working now to make Zimmerman look bad and he is not even white.
    Last edited by Mayhem; 03-30-2012 at 09:27 AM.

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Racism is a secondary issue to the root cause, which is the media and the undue influence it can bring to bare in the name of obtaining ratings. When news institutes (intentional or otherwise) attempt to become the justice system and strive to influence public opinion rather than reporting. . .we have a much larger pressing issue.

    The 4th estate has now become the 5th column.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

  7. #7
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    ChinChin is right!!

    The media could, if they really wanted to, report the story and not take sides.

    But in the days that followed the shooting I have seen the media take sides and their story was clearly against Zimmerman and guns. They paint him so badly that people WANT it to be true.

    It makes me sad to know that the world has come to this. And the news can easily influence people to believe because many people are not smart enough to think or themselves.

    Media that hate guns love these stories!

  8. #8
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    ChinChin is right!!

    The media could, if they really wanted to, report the story and not take sides.

    But in the days that followed the shooting I have seen the media take sides and their story was clearly against Zimmerman and guns. They paint him so badly that people WANT it to be true.

    It makes me sad to know that the world has come to this. And the news can easily influence people to believe because many people are not smart enough to think or themselves.

    Media that hate guns love these stories!
    That (in bold) is probably the most accurate description of all I have seen so far. Nails it right on the head.

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This thread may not stay in the Virginia forum, and that's fine, but I wanted us to get a look at it first.

    During these past few days of controversy, I can't help but recall the case of Gerald Ung, and compare the similarities and differences in his case to that of Zimmerman.

    Ung: minority man, shot attacker, a rich white man, who is well connected.
    Zimmerman: minority man, shot alleged attacker, black boy of unknown wealth or connections.

    Ung: immediately arrested, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, despite multiple eyewitness accounts and film of entire incident.
    Zimmerman: questioned, released, claim of self-defense convinces prosecuting attorney that conviction is not possible.

    Ung: after a laughable trial, jury acquits in under an hour, including lunch break. (IIRC) Civil litigation now in progress.
    Zimmerman: despite low probability of conviction in a court of law, Zimmerman is tried and convicted in the media and in the minority communities, never stood a chance at a fair evaluation of the facts. Civil action remains to be seen.


    All this proves to me is that racism is alive and well in 2012 America. And that is extremely sad.

    TFred
    I'm not sure I would describe it as "racism", as defined by a belief in the superiority of some races over others, or the prejudice against those other race.

    I would agree, without a question, that there are some folks who have made careers, indeed entire lives, built on the foundation of crying "racism!". And these individuals will go out of their way to never let any issue not be about race.

    I still think that the best response is to ignore their baiting, and focus on the relevant facts, of which we all agree race will never be one, except in cases of truly racially-motivated crimes (i.e. not the Z/M case).

    For instance, I don't think race had anything at all to do with the Ung case. Political connection, on the other and, was quite relevant.

    I don't think race had anything to do with the Z/M case, but I do think that there are those who seek to make it about race. Not sure about the best way to defuse those attempts other than by sticking to the facts.

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    The main differences between U and Z have nothing to do with race.

    Ung was minding his own business and trying to just walk away.

    Zimmerman, by his own admission, was following the kid. I don't care if Z was some kind of self appointed neighborhood watchdog; in the USA, Trayvon and anyone else has the fundamental right to walk down the street with your Skittles unmolested. If Zimmerman was a real cop and not just a wannabe, most people on this forum would be screaming about summary executions for being armed with Skittles and a soft drink.

    Oh, and as for the President (whom I'm not a huge fan of...) all he said was something like, "If I had a son, he'd probably look like Trayvon." Since this is probably very true, what's the beef? There was a case a few years ago (2003?) in Old Town Alexandria where a kid was beaten to death by a group of other high school students for no apparent reason. A picture and description of was published in the paper the next day of the dead kid. My first thought? "Wow, that looks and sounds just like K.....(my youngest son)." It's an emotion and reaction that I've known many times as the parent of 3 sons.
    Last edited by jegoodin; 03-30-2012 at 03:31 PM.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    If Zimmerman was a real cop and not just a wannabe, most people on this forum would be screaming about summary executions for being armed with Skittles and a soft drink.
    Not if the dead man had been slamming the cop's head into the ground first.

    And this is coming from me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Not if the dead man had been slamming the cop's head into the ground first.

    And this is coming from me.
    If the guy who had been suspiciously following me pulled a gun and all I had were Skittles, I'd try to slam his head into the ground too.
    I'm just saying that there is a better than average chance that its Trayvon who was "standing his ground". We just don't know. Which is in fact the main difference between U and Z. Ung's encounter with the Lacross players was all on tape.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    If the guy who had been suspiciously following me pulled a gun and all I had were Skittles, I'd try to slam his head into the ground too.
    I'm just saying that there is a better than average chance that its Trayvon who was "standing his ground". We just don't know. Which is in fact the main difference between U and Z. Ung's encounter with the Lacross players was all on tape.
    Way to change the order of the facts. The gun was pulled after the head-slamming occurred, according to what we know.

    If you got on top of someone and proceeded to slam their head into the ground you'd be guilty of assault and battery, and you've give them justification for shooting you. Doesn't matter how much they pissed you off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Way to change the order of the facts. The gun was pulled after the head-slamming occurred, according to what we know.

    If you got on top of someone and proceeded to slam their head into the ground you'd be guilty of assault and battery, and you've give them justification for shooting you. Doesn't matter how much they pissed you off.
    And just how is it that you are so 100% sure when the gun came out?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    And just how is it that you are so 100% sure when the gun came out?
    I'm not, but how are you any more sure?

    Also, it's seeming to be the case that the man yelling for help was Zimmerman. If you listen to the tape, he was yelling for some time before the shot was fired. That would suggest that the gun did not come come into play right away.

    An eyewitness reports seeing M on top of Z before the shot was fired. It doesn't matter who started it, you don't get to continue to beat someone once you're on top of them and in control. It's not only illegal, it's suicidal.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-30-2012 at 04:16 PM.

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    Regular Member Stanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    And just how is it that you are so 100% sure when the gun came out?
    You made the assertion..

    Produce the evidence.


    Unless there is evidence showing otherwise, we err on the side of the defendant. So the gun came out after the attack.

    Unless you have some video...
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
    You made the assertion..

    Produce the evidence.


    Unless there is evidence showing otherwise, we err on the side of the defendant. So the gun came out after the attack.

    Unless you have some video...
    Oh yeah, thanks. I actually meant to say just that, but I forgot.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    And just how is it that you are so 100% sure when the gun came out?
    Well, you cannot get beat up by a dead man now, can you? And we know they were fighting.

    Who was screaming for help during the fight? Z.... ? Trayvon?

    Not sure Trayvon would be standing there screaming for help with a gun pointed at him and then get into a fist fight... he would be running.

    Do you think Z would execute Trayvon after he called out for tons on people to watch?

    I think Z was asking for help and nobody came out from the community he was safeguarding. He had little choice but go to the next level of force.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    The main differences between U and Z have nothing to do with race.

    Ung was minding his own business and trying to just walk away.

    Zimmerman, by his own admission, was following the kid. I don't care if Z was some kind of self appointed neighborhood watchdog; in the USA, Trayvon and anyone else has the fundamental right to walk down the street with your Skittles unmolested. If Zimmerman was a real cop and not just a wannabe, most people on this forum would be screaming about summary executions for being armed with Skittles and a soft drink.

    Oh, and as for the President (whom I'm not a huge fan of...) all he said was something like, "If I had a son, he'd probably look like Trayvon." Since this is probably very true, what's the beef? There was a case a few years ago (2003?) in Old Town Alexandria where a kid was beaten to death by a group of other high school students for no apparent reason. A picture and description of was published in the paper the next day of the dead kid. My first thought? "Wow, that looks and sounds just like K.....(my youngest son)." It's an emotion and reaction that I've known many times as the parent of 3 sons.
    Help me out here... Why would the president need to say this on national television? It is rather obvious that if the president had a son he would look thin and black. I think it might have something to do with the upcoming election, right??

    IOW.... why is the president getting involved? I can show him several deceased teens for him to comment on all day but.... I think he would take a pass. Oh well.

    He did not get my vote last time and will not this time either.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChinChin View Post
    Racism is a secondary issue to the root cause, which is the media and the undue influence it can bring to bare in the name of obtaining ratings. When news institutes (intentional or otherwise) attempt to become the justice system and strive to influence public opinion rather than reporting. . .we have a much larger pressing issue.

    The 4th estate has now become the 5th column
    .
    Wow - cutting right to the chase. Very appropriate connection, nice turn of a phrase.

    Too many in the media have become the "enemy within."

    The reports and opinions expressed by the media ought to be fair and impartial. They would seem to lack integrety, fairness and honesty - creating false crisis for the sake of ratings and the dollar. That harms us all and brings shame. That is not the way of my countymen.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Kevin108's Avatar
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    A thought on Zimmerman following Martin:

    How do you handle things in your neighborhood? Do you ignore everything and hope for the best? Do you call the police for every little episode of JDLR you see?

    I live in a quiet neighborhood but, like most of you, I wouldn't have to go far to get into a less-reputable area. I've seen a map of my city with the crime hotspots indicated by red dots. Anywhere I've ever lived, if I saw something suspicious - a car I don't recognize or a person doing unusual things - I've made it unmistakably obvious that I was aware of and interested in them.

    What keeps a neighborhood from succumbing to crime? I like to think it's involvement.

  22. #22
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    I was an elected HOA Pres through a disaster, Hurricane Hugo, 1989. The changes wrought by the recovery from the damage to the neighborhood ended the HOA and the attractive quality of the neighborhood.

    The on point story. I was awakened at 0300 by the sound of large engines at high idle in my cul-de-sac. When I investigated, I met my Chief of Police Roddy Perry at a drug cooker's house that was being cleaned up by hazardous materials workers. When I told him that I was surprised that such could go on just out of sight of my front door, he responded that I needed to be a good nosy neighbor.

    In 1993 the state became shall-issue and I started carrying a gun outside of my curtilage(open carry is still prohibited). The homeowner of the kitchen-lab had already gone away. The chemist-pusher was still pending trial, much to the dismay of the older ladies in the neighborhood. He carefully intimidated them. In consultation with the PD I ostentatiously openly carried my sidearm in my cul-de-sac. The dummy black-and-white was parked in front of my townhouse. My call for a unit got loud response. The cooker was still free when I divorced and moved to a gated community.

    Read up on the broken-window theory. Read Ch. Reuben Greenberg's Let's Take Back Our Streets. Chief Perry taught, "Don't lose the street."

  23. #23
    Regular Member BionicRooster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    Now as for the media they proclaim from the rooftops if it is a minority being accosted but don't say a peep if it is the other way around. Also the DOJ will prosecute white on black crime but not black on white. Look at this article about a 13 year old boy that was lit on fire by two minority kids. http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/when-raci...snt-make-news/ Also the (current occupant of the oval office) called for an full investigation of the Zimmerman case but didn't mention the other one. Hmmm seems odd that the president would choose to get involved with one and not the other!
    I just stumbled into this thread, and was surprised to see you post the link to that story.

    I have heard a lot about it, not because it was [briefly] in our news, but I have known the victim's parents for over 15 years.

    It is sad to see how much the media plays a part in convicting an otherwise innocent man protecting himself, yet 2 black teens(15 or 16) setting a white teen(13yrs old) is not considered a "hate crime"? Come on now, what kind of one-sided bull crap is that?!?

    I have never in my life been racist. I fully believe a person should be judged by their actions. Simple as that.

  24. #24
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Zimmerman's father seems to corroborate that he drew AFTER being beaten:

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/153689418...ylist_id=87485

    But let's assume otherwise. Zimmerman draws his gun on Trayvon. Trayvon then punches Zimmerman in the nose, straddles him, beats him in the face further, and bashes his head into the sidewalk for a full minute, all the while Zimmerman is holding his gun and pointing it at Trayvon. Finally Zimmerman fires. Does this seem likely, or even logical?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  25. #25
    Regular Member TOF's Avatar
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    Police Departments in several communities where I have resided helped establish Neighborhood Watch programs. They have typically encouraged citizens to get involved by monitoring their area and reporting suspicious activities. The SO in my current location has recently established such a program. I might point out that the last 3 times I am aware of the SO being contacted over the past year regarding burglary in progress (lights coming on in a “Vacant” cabin) it took several hours (up to 24) for them to respond. In the 24 hour delay case I was asked by the SO if I felt comfortable entering my friend’s cabin to see if someone was there. I said I would but would be doing so with pistol in hand. They said go get them so I, with a friend, did. Fortunately they had departed during the 24 hour delay. Given that we thought a transient was staying in the cabin normally vacant during winter there was a good possibility they were still there which the SO was fully aware of.

    With the above background, I believe the actions of Zimmerman were well within his rights as a citizen and his duties as an active member of a Neighborhood Watch program.

    I, as with the rest of you, do not know specifics of the last 2 minutes of Trayvon’s life. I will leave final judgment to the legal system which hopefully will not be unduly influenced by Politics.
    If you woke up breathing, congratulations! You get another chance.

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