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Ung vs. Zimmerman

marshaul

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While our government has taken to using the term "Hispanic" in a racial, i.e. skin-color, sense, its proper meaning is simply that of any person who comes from a Spanish-speaking culture.

"White Hispanic" is not a contradiction of terms, necessarily or even implicitly.

This is precisely why I caution against playing the media's game of skin color-based analysis. It's impossible to talk about what matters, because neither the shade of Zimmerman's skin nor the language of his grandparents has any bearing on the course of events that night.

Caling Zimmerman a "white hispanic" is, at best, a value-neutral descriptor, and, at worst, an intentional attempt to distract and redirect the issue back onto that of race, and worst of all to do so in a way which allows a claim of plausible deniability.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: don't play that game. Don't satisfy attempts to make this about race. It isn't. Leave that issue to the ignorant and it will die of its own accord. This really is 2012. Most people are over it, as much as the media tries to create drama to sell stories. The media is counting on us as much as anyone to refuse to let the race issue die by continuously "rebutting" their racial claims. Don't do it. Stick to the facts which matter.
 
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Herr Heckler Koch

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The origin of the conflation of cultural and ethnic epithets may be in the (most recent) census that had, IIRC, those options.
 

randian

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This isn't just about the media. The government is at fault too. As I'm sure you know, as a result of this case it's been publicized that in government statistics regarding "hate crimes" hispanic is a victim designation but not a perpetrator designation. Hispanic perpetrators of such crimes (and there should be many given the hispanic/black gang wars as well as the ethnic cleansing of blacks in Los Angeles by hispanic gangs) are lumped in with whites. Given that hispanics commit crimes at far higher rates than whites, this grossly inflates the white "hate crime" stats. This calumny cannot have been an accident. Somebody wants to smear whites.
 

randian

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Do some more reading. That's a two-way street. Specifically, read about the formation of MS-13.
That blacks are retaliating doesn't change the fact that when a hispanic gangbanger kills a black gangbanger and gets a hate crime enhancement for it, that's recorded as "white kills black", just as Zimmerman is excluded from the sainted "hispanic" group and becomes part of the devilish "white" group when he shoots a black man.
 

Grapeshot

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--snip--
I've said it before and I'll say it again: don't play that game. Don't satisfy attempts to make this about race. It isn't. Leave that issue to the ignorant and it will die of its own accord. This really is 2012. Most people are over it, as much as the media tries to create drama to sell stories. The media is counting on us as much as anyone to refuse to let the race issue die by continuously "rebutting" their racial claims. Don't do it. Stick to the facts which matter.

Not sure that we can totally afford to ignore the misdirection that emphasizes racial identities. That card has been played hard and often in an attempt to make it the focal point. To turn the other cheek and not respond is tantamount to endorsing the inflammed rantings of the extremists. Old cliche still applies - silence gives consent.

I think that such human qualities of individual identity are simply qualities of my fellow man - they are cosmetic. Any attempt to turn these qualities into a point of contention, especially for nefarious purposes, is deplorable - such cannot be tolerated.
 

marshaul

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Retaliating? If it really matters who started it, indigenous (as it happens, many/most of them were also black) gangs were specifically targeting immigrants as victims of crimes way back in the 80s, if not earlier. Illegal immigrants make attractive targets because they won't ever go to the police. Some of these immigrants were refugees from the US-government-sponsored guerrilla fighting in places like El Salvador, and some of them had participated in it. With no ability to turn to government to prevent being targeted by our indigenous gangs, but plenty of ability to retaliate extralegally, some of them formed gangs of their own (e.g. MS-13), which then precipitated the so-called "ethnic cleansing" you see today, which is really just one push in the endless back-and-forth which has been going on for decades.

Frankly, I'm still disinclined to consider race as a primarily relevant factor. This perpetual "gang war" didn't start for primarily racial reasons, although it's reported American/black gangs in 80s in California and the like were fairly anti-Hispanic or at least anti-immigrant, and I'm sure there is similar sentiment on the other side. The real driving factors were culture and legal status, as well as of course the biggest driving force of all, money.

Today most gang fighting isn't racially-motivated -- although it can appear as such due to common divisions of gangs on cultural (which then appear ethnic) lines -- but rather motivated primarily by drug profits, and to a lesser degree prostitution and extortion proceeds. Race merely goes along for the ride, but it isn't the defining difference which drives this stuff.

But if you have to make that about race too, at least get the history straight. It's very hard to place the blame on either side, although if you really wanted to it would have to be the black gangs. But then again, that was 30 years ago.

I'd be happy to let your argument regarding statistics stand on its own merit, but I feel disinclined to let unfounded claims of initiatory "ethnic cleansing" go unchallenged.
 
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marshaul

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Not sure that we can totally afford to ignore the misdirection that emphasis racial identities. That card has been played hard and often in an attempt to make it the focal point. To turn the other cheek and not respond is tantamount to endorsing the inflammed rantings of the extremists. Old cliche still applies - silence gives consent.

I think that such human qualities of individual identity are simply qualities of my fellow man - they are cosmetic. Any attempt to turn these qualities into a point of contention, especially for nefarious purposes, is deplorable - such cannot be tolerated.

Yes, but that misdirection is carefully framed -- and the intended audience is manipulated to be receptive to this -- so that any attempt to counter with explicitly race-based counterarguments can be decried as racist. I've spent enough times "on both sides of the fence", or around people of both types, to see this with my very eyes.

And remember, there is little point to convincing those with whom you are already in full agreement. Otherwise you've got nothing more than an echo-chamber, a choir preaching to itself.

I've noticed a particular tendency for that echo-chamber effect to manifest itself on gun forums when the topic of conversation turns to race. Folks start going off on increasingly Limbaughian rants, become more irrational (mind you, I didn't say racist) and, more importantly, socially polarizing. That turns much of the rest of the membership who'd rather not touch it to clearer waters, and POOF, echo chamber.

It is made all the more interesting in that, for instance, on this forum there has long been an established intent to present the material in as broadly-accesible a fashion as possible. (Look at the site's banner, fer cryin' out loud! :p) The site's rules are, although largely self-moderated, pretty much tailored-made to encourage presenting open carry in the light of a nonpartisan Civil Right, rather than an issue of mudslinging partisanship. This site seeks broad appeal.

And broad appeal means arguments need to be made with some thought to how the unconvinced might see them. I know I do that every time I make a post, even when I advance some of my more "radical" notions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I'd like for as many folks as possible to recognize my position as derived from careful, rational thought. Sometimes I am lazy in this regard, but I am always happy for others to say it better than I did, or to nudge me in the right direction.

On this issue of race, it must be remembered that gun forums tend to be probably something like 95% white, 4.5% Asian/Hispanic, and .5% black. I pulled those numbers out of my posterior, but I'd say they're not too far off. With all of us being white, it's easy to start sounding like an echo chamber of Socially Established/Entrenched White Guys. Which is fine, because that's basically what we are. :p But when we're trying to counter the arguments of those who want to make everything about race, we need to realize that most of the Unconvinced are not Socially Entrenched White Guys, but pretty much everybody else. Therefore, it's sensible to think about the best way to frame the arguments. Mind you, I'm not talking about PC. I'm just talking about knowing your audience.

It's clear to me that it's very difficult to counter race-based arguments explicitly without falling into their trap, and turning off most of the unconvinced. It can be done, but it can't be done by saying, "well, look at all this black crime here!" or, "look at all this 'ethnic cleansing' (omg!) over there"! It can be done by always shifting the focus back to issues of actual effect.

Don't ignore the race card, simply point out how race is not the issue, using facts which race cannot effect. Here, for instance, there is never a need to point out the "reverse" racism of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. It isn't necessary to insinuate race war being fomented by the media. Simply point out their inaccuracies and omissions.

I'm going to cite a post of Stanley's, simply to demonstrate that there are those who share much of our perspective, but will see such arguments in an unconvincing light. I'd furthermore like to point out that it seems Stanley has become a least a little bit convinced by the arguments strictly based in fact and law (if not convinced, then understanding of). But it would be easy for him to be turned off by much of the rest of the discussion.

When the ghetto thugs cry race all the other people, and as unfortunate as it is, especially white people need to stay the heck out of it. Nothing you say can or will bring people on your side.

In fact, the MORE you protest the worse it gets and the more the normal black people will choose to err on the side of ghetto thugs and distance themselves from you.

Crying race-baiting or reverse racism is the probably WORST thing you can do. Because frankly, it's disingenuous. This country has a history that justifies crying race on black people's part and you KNOW it.

It will only stop when that cry keeps being shown to have been false. You can't expect a population that actually has been subject to racism for centuries (present day included) to stop assuming it's racist.

You'd be better off letting the stats show it isn't and let them come to the conclusion on their own.

I'm not going to argue whether his perspective is "right" or "wrong", fair or unfair. I'm just pointing out that it is what it is. And it's a very common perspective amongst those who aren't part of the White Guy Echo Chamber.

You think you're not being cowed by proudly making the arguments in the terms you think they ought to be made in, but it's my opinion that you're only preaching to the choir, and at the same time falling victim to an intentionally discrediting trap. That's not fair and it isn't right, but I'll tell you what: that's fine, because race really doesn't matter and we're better of taking the high road and sticking to the pertinent anyway. Let them stay stuck in the excrement of ignorance of decades past. No need to let them drag us down with them.



Remember, the primary purpose of this site is to advocate Open Carry and self defense, and this is a critical time to defend its merits in terms all can appreciate, rather than succumbing to diversionary, partisan rhetoric and arguments bound to be misconstrued by the unconvinced.

(I highly doubt I'm going to convince anybody of anything based on my abysmal failure last time, but that's the best I've got.)
 
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Herr Heckler Koch

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I've been using amen-corner as your "echo chamber" for the cross cultural association.

Living in Charleston, SC for thirty years, I visited quite a few African Methodist Episcopalian churches with congregant friends. AME congregations feature an amen-corner of respondents.
 

marshaul

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I've been using amen-corner as your "echo chamber" for the cross cultural association.

Living in Charleston, SC for thirty years, I visited quite a few African Methodist Episcopalian churches with congregant friends. AME congregations feature an amen-corner of respondents.

Yes, I was thinking of our recent PM, and your use of the phrase "amen corner", when I framed my argument. All should take care to avoid the phenomenon, if they really seek to make ideas spread.

I think "amen corner" actually describes what I see in my head a little better, but I figured "echo chamber" might have a broader accessibility (since I was talking about just that at the time).
 
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Herr Heckler Koch

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Amen, Brother!

Or, in a different vernacular, ┼1
 

TFred

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What "media" moron came up with this "white-Hispanic" tag? Does that make Obama a black-white man?

Another lie in this "report" is that the police refused to arrest Zimmerman.

They were advised they could not until an investigation of the incident by the prosecutor’s office based on the law.

The family lost all my support the second they allowed Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton to represent them!

Both of these racist fools are proven liars and have zero credibility.

And don't forget that the "New Black Panthers" have offered $10,000 for the "capture" of Zimmerman.

On what authority??? Last I heard, that was kidnapping.

The media should be horse whipped for the inaccurate information they have spewed! Too many of the current "reporters" appear to be graduates of the Dangerous Dan Rather School of Yellow Journalism!
I'm not a lawyer, and certainly not a lawyer in Florida, but it seems to me that when they are caught on film, released for all the world to see, taking you in handcuffs from the sheriff's vehicle into the police station for questioning... you have been arrested! Does anyone believe that Zimmerman was free to leave if he had wanted to at that point?

Some other thoughts on the question. No endorsement, just a blog Google spit out for me.

TFred
 

Dreamer

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marshaul

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They lost credibility with me when they filed for copyrights to the phrases "Justice for Trayvon" and "I Am Trayvon" so they coul dget the money from all the sales of t-shirts and other schwag with those phrases on them...

http://news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martins-mom-files-trademark-papers-212249143.html

Nice catch!

This is a perfect example of how these people have no credibility, can claim no credibility, and can easily be shown for such.

(Note no reference to race necessary.)
 

Redbaron007

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Nice catch!

This is a perfect example of how these people have no credibility, can claim no credibility, and can easily be shown for such.

(Note no reference to race necessary.)

Very well phrased.

Basically, there is no credibility with them.
 

since9

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All this proves to me is that racism is alive and well in 2012 America. And that is extremely sad.

What I find sad is how quick the mainstream media was to print all that's unfit to read. That's sad, not to mention a flagrant violation of "freedom of the press."

If I were Zimmerman, I'd be keeping track of precisely which MM source had access to which pieces of information and instead of acting on that information, published incendiary, hateful, racist, and biased content which ruined Zimmerman's reputation (probably for life) and put his life in extreme danger.

I smell a Billion Dollar lawsuit.
 
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MamabearCali

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Even the press can be sued for libel and slander. Especially as Zimmerman didn't put himself in the public eye. It would be very difficult to do so, but the purposeful editing of the 9-11 tape might be enough.
 

slowfiveoh

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[snip]

I smell a Billion Dollar lawsuit.



  • Editing the tape to attempt to portray Mr. Zimmerman in a racist light.
  • Spike Lee actively attempting to provide the personal details of Zimmermans whereabouts to society for purely malicious purposes.

    All I got right now, but it is most definitely a case.
 
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