Ung vs. Zimmerman

Stand your ground is not right to pursue. Everyone here knows that there are responsibilities that come with carrying a firearm. Zimmerman was following Martin. He continued to do so when told he shouldn't do that. He could have at least stayed in his vehichle and followed from a safe distance giving him time to flee (remember, he was persuing, not standing his ground). He exited his vehichle and pusued on foot. Got close enough to Martin for physical contact to be made. He should have stayed far enough away to unholster his firearm, giving Martin enough time to see it and decide (Hey, this man has a gun) maybe I should just run away. If Martin had been old enough to carry, HE could have stood his ground and shot Zimmerman ("The man was following me and it looked like he had a gun under his shirt"). Zimmerman took steps that led to the situation. From WHAT WE KNOW, I don't believe he is a racist but I also believe what happened (Martins death) is at least Negligent homocide. BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW.

William Fisher said:

Stand your ground is not right to pursue. Everyone here knows that there are responsibilities that come with carrying a firearm. Zimmerman was following Martin. He continued to do so when told he shouldn't do that. He could have at least stayed in his vehichle and followed from a safe distance giving him time to flee (remember, he was persuing, not standing his ground). He exited his vehichle and pusued on foot. Got close enough to Martin for physical contact to be made. He should have stayed far enough away to unholster his firearm, giving Martin enough time to see it and decide (Hey, this man has a gun) maybe I should just run away. If Martin had been old enough to carry, HE could have stood his ground and shot Zimmerman ("The man was following me and it looked like he had a gun under his shirt"). Zimmerman took steps that led to the situation. From WHAT WE KNOW, I don't believe he is a racist but I also believe what happened (Martins death) is at least Negligent homocide. BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW.

Click to expand...

If you want to talk about what you know, then start by getting your facts straight.

On Zimmerman following Martin: "He continued to do so when told he shouldn't do that."

Incorrect. The exact quote was, "We don't need you to do that." I heard the 911 tape, and unless it was doctored by the source (like NBC has been caught doing) that is what was said.

Worlds apart in meaning and especially so in the context at hand.

Many reports indicated that Zimmerman lost sight of Martin, and was returning to his truck when Martin approached HIM from behind and started talking trash, followed by a sucker punch to the nose. I don't know if that is factual, but neither can we know if it is factual that Zimmerman approached Martin to initiate the scuffle.

TFred

One thing is certain from this affair, and that is that if conclusion-jumping were an Olympic sport the United States would win year after year.

I have read that Zimmerman was a "self-appointed" "neighborhood watch captain" (a self appointed CAPTAIN??) Actually he was a legit member of the neighborhood watch, but he was just going to the store.

It has been revealed that NBC edited the 911 tape to make Zimmerman seem out to get a black guy by deleting the 911 dispatcher ask if Zimmerman thought the person he was observing seemed "black, white, or hispanic".

Someone needs to explain why this did not result in an IMMEDIATE OUTCRY but came to national attention overr ONE MONTH after the incident.

Of course the antis have siezed Trayvon Martin's bloody shirt and are waving it about as they dance in the dead teen's (perhaps not so innocent) blood.


Sez me, I wasn't there and I cannot trust the news media to just present the facts. NBC means "No Believable Content". At least three Florida state investigations at different levels kicked in almost as soon as the fatal shot was fired, and now the Feds are in the mix. The truth will out.


Nevertheless, irresponsible crack-brained rabble-rousers and race baiters continue to demand the arrest of Zimmerman on the grounds of what is rapidly turning out to be a morass of malarkey and speculation fed by the sensationalist commercial news media who, liberal anti-gun predjudice aside hope to turn a buck on all the whoop-ti-do.


Meanwhile thousands of people of all races fall victim to even more dastardly crimes, yet THIS local abberation they focus on like a laser. It is as though someone has picked up a fallen leaf from the forest floor in autumn and gone into spasms of grief about it, even as they are showered with freshly dead leaves all around. This whole thing is pathetic beyond the limits of the written word to convey.

FWIW every time I fill out an EMS patient care report, my "race" options include white hispanic and black hispanic. So somewhere in government, somebody decided it was important.

Another example of "doing what the dispatcher tells you to do." .....

http://www.wtkr.com/news/wtkr-charg...-the-hood-of-vehicle-20120402,0,5567718.story

A Chesapeake woman who followed the advice of police dispatchers and kept driving with an angry man on the hood of her car was later charged with trying to hurt him.

Click to expand...

That is ridiculous on so many levels

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

One of my favorite movie quotes...

"Does everybody have to keep f@$king everyone until we're all the same color?"

-Warren Beatty - Bulworth(1998)




That would most likely be what it takes to finally put an end to racial issues...

BionicRooster said:

"Does everybody have to keep f@$king everyone until we're all the same color?"

-Warren Beatty - Bulworth(1998)


That would most likely be what it takes to finally put an end to racial issues...

Click to expand...

There will still be those that who would manufacture perceived differences and exploit them any and every way - for some this is their chosen occupation.

Grapeshot said:

There will still be those that who would manufacture perceived differences and exploit them any and every way - for some this is their chosen occupation.

Click to expand...

Like IQ. Like rich and poor. Like illiterate and literate.

BionicRooster said:

"Does everybody have to keep f@$king everyone until we're all the same color?"

-Warren Beatty - Bulworth(1998)




That would most likely be what it takes to finally put an end to racial issues...

Click to expand...

Grapeshot said:

There will still be those that who would manufacture perceived differences and exploit them any and every way - for some this is their chosen occupation.

Click to expand...

It's honestly sad how right you are...

Herr Heckler Koch said:

Like IQ. Like rich and poor. Like illiterate and literate.

Click to expand...

Well, then it's not racial, but it's still discrimination nonetheless. And that's been going on since before people knew there were people of different colors.

BionicRooster said:

Well, then it's not racial, but it's still discrimination nonetheless. And that's been going on since before people knew there were people of different colors.

Click to expand...

Discretion and discrimination have been forces in the world since Eve ate Adam's Apple.

BionicRooster said:

Well, then it's not racial, but it's still discrimination nonetheless. And that's been going on since before people knew there were people of different colors.

Click to expand...

It's in the eye of the beholder and if no preference shown, then there is no discrimination.

In any event, the perceived/manufactured differences fail under the light of a reality check.

We are all principals in the human race - should be the end of the story.

"JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — The Florida special prosecutor announced a second-degree murder charge on Wednesday against George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin." http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting.html?_r=1&hp

Click to expand...

Hopefully Zimmerman has a damn good lawyer.

"All this proves to me is that racism is alive and well in 2012 America. And that is extremely sad.

TFred"

Yes TFred, racism is alive and well in 2012 America, as evidenced by the news media's race baiting, as evidenced by people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and............

as evidenced by your race baiting thread.

And by the way......
Zimmerman brought this upon himself by houndogging Martin even though Martin wasn't doing anything illegal. Stand your ground doesn't apply to Zimmerman because he provoked the incident. If Zimmerman really thought that Martin was a threat he should have stayed in his car and let uniformed police officers approach Martin. Martin would have then known who was following him around instead of this stranger.

No, dummies....you can't just follow a stranger around on the street. It's called harassment or aggravated harassment. Police officers wear uniforms, have badges, and drive marked cars because they have investigative powers and can be identified as such over mere strangers.

Another fallacy being tossed about is that the police actually did arrested Zimmerman. No they didn't. The police detained and questioned Zimmerman and then let him go. They did not formally arrest him. The police themselves have never said that they'd arrested him.

Stop trying to turn this into more of a racial issue than it already is. After Zimmerman was released a police investigator, after further investigation, later recommended that he be arrested. It was the prosecutor that invoked "Stand Your Ground" even though the investigator's info clearly stated that it did not apply in this case. There are a lot of officials in Florida who were against Stand Your Ground when it was implemented and are still against it. They would do whatever they can to scuttle it. OPEN YOUR EYES.

Zimmerman is simply a police wannabe who overstepped his bounds and caused a needless death in the process. He provoked the incident therefore Stand Your Ground does not and would not in any way apply to his case.

Toymaker said:

"All this proves to me is that racism is alive and well in 2012 America. And that is extremely sad.

TFred"

Yes TFred, racism is alive and well in 2012 America, as evidenced by the news media's race baiting, as evidenced by people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and............

as evidenced by your race baiting thread.

Click to expand...

Did you read my original post? I started this thread to compare and contrast two incidents that have distinct similarities and differences, some of which are indeed racial in nature.

Do you know what the term "race baiting" means? Please give me a concrete example of how my original post can possibly meet that definition.

TFred

Toymaker said:

--snip--

as evidenced by your race baiting thread.

Click to expand...

Disagree - thread would have been closed had that been determined to be the case.

No, dummies....

Click to expand...

We discuss information, we do not insult people on this forum.

Zimmerman is simply a police wannabe who overstepped his bounds and caused a needless death in the process. He provoked the incident therefore Stand Your Ground does not and would not in any way apply to his case.

Click to expand...

Inflammatory opinion - you are neither judge nor jury.

Click to expand...

Let's not pursue this this line in this manner any further.

Kevin108 said:

~~ clipped ~~ How do you handle things in your neighborhood? Do you ignore everything and hope for the best? Do you call the police for every little episode of JDLR you see?
~~ clipped ~~
What keeps a neighborhood from succumbing to crime? ~~

Click to expand...

I do not hide that I keep an eye on what goes on and I have to hope that it is helping.
I do think a friend of mine pulled what had to be the best prank on some drug dealers once.. He had noticed increased activity at a house down the street from him and even with giving the police over a hundred vehicle make, model and plate numbers that had visited the house in a single day.. the Police claimed they had more important things to deal with.. So he ran a bogus advertisement in the Homes for sale section of the local paper that basically said.. Good Home cheap, within walking distance to a Drug Dealer on NW ?rd st just off of XXXX Place rd, owner will carry contract. If interested call (and he gave the phone number for the Police drug task force) A good thing he only paid for a 3 day run as the Police shut the place down two days later.

It seems he did the Police a favor in that a bunch of druggies were calling the contact number, trying to confirm the address so the Police decided to take the house down and operate a sting to collect more druggies while at it.

With the cost of even a two line ad in todays news papers.. I would not do it.. but I thought that was great to watch how effective his ploy was..

"Stand Your Ground" laws are not a hunting license, and anybody with half a brain understands that. As for Zimmerman (I've wearied of hearing/seeing his name), had he never exited his car (stood his ground), there would be no question about who/what/where/when or how. From that one act of stupidity, he effectively removed himself from the criminal protections offered by SYG. He chose to place himself in a confrontational situation! I see that he has finally been arrested and charged with murder 2 (which should have happened immediately after the shooting). A jury will now decide if his actions fell under the protections of SYG, and that he is innocent of criminal wrongdoing, or that he initiated what turned into a deadly confrontation, and he should be imprisoned for a significant period of time. The inordinate delay between the death of Trayvon Martin (another name of which I am tiring), and the arrest and detention of Zimmerman (even for "suspicion") did more damage (justified or not) to the existing racial divisiveness in our country - especially in those southern states with an established history of apartheid. Just my thoughts. Pax...

UPDATE: It was revealed today - 4/12/12 - that Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara does not intend to use Florida's SYG law as a defense. (Maybe because he realizes it doesn't apply to his client?)

Grapeshot said:

Disagree - thread would have been closed had that been determined to be the case.

Click to expand...

I hate to disagree in turn, Grapeshot the Grand Arbiter of Race Baiting, but I've already voiced my concerns regarding threads/posts of this nature on several occasions.

I'm inclined to agree with the gist of Toymaker's post.

"Race baiting" may be a little unfair and prejudgemental, but his point that threads such as this make the issue "more about race" than it already has been made, or deserves to be made, is right on the money.

I'm not going to ask you to reverse your prior judgement on this issue, as I've already done that and failed.

However, in the interest of objectivity, and for the record for the sake of visitors to this site who are not part of the White Guy Amen Corner (thanks Doug), I'm going to simply ask all to consider whether there may be some merit to the position, in light of it having been expressed independently by several posters.

Grapeshot, I respect your opinion and your status as a moderator. However, I maintain that your judgement on this issue is wrong, and that many posters here are emboldened in their espousal of a misguided position by the effect of the forum's echo chamber, the White Guy Amen Corner.

I'll tell you what when the media was making it out like a Caucasian had murdered a young Negro, I figured Sharpton was in-part behind it. Can anyone look at this photo and explain to me how most of the photos posted of Zimmerman are of a light-skinned man when he obviously looks Hispanic:

View attachment 8314



If Zimmerman chased Martin down, and did not return to his truck, he may be in a heap of trouble. Who knows what is facts, and what is fiction at this point. A little snipper from the affadavit:

"

Later while talking about Martin, Zimmerman stated "these ---holes, they always get away" and also said "these ----ing punks."
During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening. The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by and unknown male and didn't know why. Martin attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman who didn't want the person he falsely assumed was going to commit a crime to get away before the police arrived. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin. When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that and that the responding officer would meet him. Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin.
Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued. Witnesses heard people arguing and what sounded like a struggle. During this time period witnesses heard numerous calls for help and some of these were recorded in 911 calls to police. Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and has identified the voice crying for help as Trayvon Martin's voice.
Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. When police arrived Zimmerman admitted shooting Martin. Officers recovered a gun from a holster inside Zimmerman's waistband. A fired casing that was recovered at the scene was determined to have been fired from the firearm.
Assistant Medical Examiner Dr. Bao performed an autopsy and determined that Martin died from the gunshot wound."
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...d-degree-murder-trayvon-martin-143832017.html

​

Click to expand...