Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Greetings & my contribution

  1. #1
    Regular Member OneBadUnit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    NKY/SWOH/SEIN
    Posts
    14

    Greetings & my NKY/OH contribution

    Hello all,

    I signed up a few days ago and have been reading previous posts; very good information... thanks to all! I'm a resident of KY (Kenton County) but frequently in Cincinnati, OH for work, school, etc. I've put together some information for both KY and OH and formatted so it can be printed into a three-fold pamphlet. I wanted to give enough pertinent information from what I would call "common questions" for those interested in OC but of course I could not fit everything. I plan to carry several of these when I take my walks in case anyone has questions.

    Here is a link to my pamphlet on Google documents; I welcome any suggestions and notification of errors I may have on my information. "Open Carry is Legal" Pamphlet

    If you would rather just view as pictures, here you go:

    Pamphlet Front

    Pamphlet Back


    Looking forward to reading more from everyone.

    Thanks

    OBU
    Last edited by OneBadUnit; 03-31-2012 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Fixed format and changed to PDF

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    3,731
    You may want to rethink your pamphlet as it related to 22921.29.

    When any of us are carrying concealed we understand that we must inform an officer of our conceal carry status and also have identification on our persons and supply that identification if requested.

    When open carrying we are not required to have any type of identification on our persons. Knowing that the Ohio legislature passed ORC 2921.29.

    Under Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), a law enforcement officer has wide leeway during an investigatory stop. But, that wide leeway is not unlimited. A stop under Terry is limited by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and also limited by Article 1 Section 14 of the Ohio Constitution. ORC §2921.29 is unconstitutional as written. ORC §2921.29(A) states in part “No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the person’s name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:...” ORC §2921.29 goes well beyond the holding of Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, Humboldt County, et al, 542 U.S. 177 (2004).

    The U.S. Supreme Court in Hiibel stated that:

    "Beginning with Terry v. Ohio, 392 U. S. 1, the Court has recognized that an officer's reasonable suspicion that a person may be involved in criminal activity permits the officer to stop the person for a brief time and take additional steps to investigate further. Although it is well established that an officer may ask a suspect to identify himself during a Terry stop, see, e.g., United States v. Hensley, 469 U. S. 221, 229, it has been an open question whether the suspect can be arrested and prosecuted for refusal to answer, see Brown, supra, at 53, n. 3. The Court is now of the view that Terry principles permit a State to require a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a Terry stop. Terry, supra, at 34."

    The Hiibel court made it abundantly clear that, until Hiibel, an open question existed as to whether a suspect can be arrested and prosecuted for the refusal to answer questions, ie a suspect exercising their Fifth Amendment right. Through Hiibel the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the Terry principles permit a State to require a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a Terry stop. The Court did not extend that principle beyond the giving of the suspect's name.

    ORC §2921.29 states “no person...shall refuse to disclose the person’s name, address, or date of birth.” The term “or” in Websters dictionary is a conjunction introducing an alternative. Thus, in plain English ORC §2921.29 allows a person to give one of the three alternatives. But, what if an arresting officer charges an Accused with not supplying all three because the officer treated the term “or” as if it meant “and.” According to ORC §1.02(F) (“And” may be read “or,” and “or” may be read “and” if the sense requires it.) the officer is permitted to make such interpretation. The officer's interpretation, however, would be in direct violation of ORC §1.42 which states in part “Words and phrases shall be read in context and construed according to the rules of grammar and common usage.” Accordingly, the application of term “and” in ORC §2921.29(A) would then be in direct violation of Hiibel. Clearly, ORC §2921.29(A), when applied with the term “and” instead of “or”, would be beyond what the U.S. Supreme Court has allowed under the Fourth Amendment and therefore, ORC §2921.29 would be unconstitutional.

    If an Accused gave their name, but was arrested and jailed for not giving his address and date of birth, the arrest and jailing would be under the color of law and in violation of the Accused's constitutional right under the U.S. and Ohio Constitution.

  3. #3
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    The act of legally carrying a firearm openly is not a crime, and would not constitute RAS for a Terry stop. Unless you are doing something illegal, you should not have to worry about this. I have not read this handout, however in Ky these laws are much more liberal. You can't be disarmed unless specific circumstances are met under KRS 237.104. You do not have to identify yourself to an Leo unless he has detained you for a crime. It is illegal for an Leo to stop and detain you in Ky without RAS that you were committing a criminal offense.

  4. #4
    Regular Member OneBadUnit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    NKY/SWOH/SEIN
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post


    This is a great post with a great deal of information, but you are in the KY forum and we don't follow Ohio law or the Ohio Constitution in Ky. Thank you for your contribution.
    I posted in both Kentucky and Ohio forums; I linked OH to my original post here. I think that there are others like me who have to learn and follow the laws in Ohio, as we travel back and forth daily, and appreciate an update from someone native to Ohio.

    I also edited the title so all will know this deals with both KY & OH in case they wonder why Ohio laws are being posted.
    Last edited by OneBadUnit; 03-30-2012 at 10:01 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    It seems that you were upstaged by the other trifold, but yours is no informing. I think that we should, with your permission, combine the two threads into the KY gun law thread. This would make it easier for people to get a more carry-able version of the laws.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  6. #6
    Regular Member OneBadUnit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    NKY/SWOH/SEIN
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    It seems that you were upstaged by the other trifold, but yours is no informing. I think that we should, with your permission, combine the two threads into the KY gun law thread. This would make it easier for people to get a more carry-able version of the laws.
    Sure, that would be fantastic. Just as Sundiver said, I did this for everyone to use how they like; I even borrowed from his in a revision. If a mod wants to lock and redirect to his thread, I'm game (His has a better thread title for the forum list anyway.)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •