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Thread: Greetings Ohio!

  1. #1
    Regular Member OneBadUnit's Avatar
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    Greetings Ohio!

    Hello everyone,

    Recently joined the forums and have been doing some reading.. very good information here! I put together a printable three-fold pamphlet that has a little basic info for both KY and OH as I live in NKY and travel to Cincy frequently.

    Here is a link to my pamphlet on Google documents; I welcome any suggestions and notification of errors I may have on my information. "Open Carry is Legal" Pamphlet

    If you would rather just view as pictures, here you go:

    Pamphlet Front

    Pamphlet Back


    Edit: Updated to include: "Ohio’s concealed carry laws do not regulate “open” carry of firearms. If you openly carry, use caution. The open carry of firearms is a legal activity in Ohio." - From Pg. 17 of Ohio CCW manual http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/concealedcarrybook

    Thanks!

    OBU
    Last edited by OneBadUnit; 04-06-2012 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Fixed format and coverted to PDF

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    You may want to rethink your pamphlet as it related to 22921.29.

    When any of us are carrying concealed we understand that we must inform an officer of our conceal carry status and also have identification on our persons and supply that identification if requested.

    When open carrying we are not required to have any type of identification on our persons. Knowing that the Ohio legislature passed ORC 2921.29.

    Under Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), a law enforcement officer has wide leeway during an investigatory stop. But, that wide leeway is not unlimited. A stop under Terry is limited by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and also limited by Article 1 Section 14 of the Ohio Constitution. ORC §2921.29 is unconstitutional as written. ORC §2921.29(A) states in part “No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the person’s name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:...” ORC §2921.29 goes well beyond the holding of Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, Humboldt County, et al, 542 U.S. 177 (2004).

    The U.S. Supreme Court in Hiibel stated that:

    "Beginning with Terry v. Ohio, 392 U. S. 1, the Court has recognized that an officer's reasonable suspicion that a person may be involved in criminal activity permits the officer to stop the person for a brief time and take additional steps to investigate further. Although it is well established that an officer may ask a suspect to identify himself during a Terry stop, see, e.g., United States v. Hensley, 469 U. S. 221, 229, it has been an open question whether the suspect can be arrested and prosecuted for refusal to answer, see Brown, supra, at 53, n. 3. The Court is now of the view that Terry principles permit a State to require a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a Terry stop. Terry, supra, at 34."

    The Hiibel court made it abundantly clear that, until Hiibel, an open question existed as to whether a suspect can be arrested and prosecuted for the refusal to answer questions, ie a suspect exercising their Fifth Amendment right. Through Hiibel the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the Terry principles permit a State to require a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a Terry stop. The Court did not extend that principle beyond the giving of the suspect's name.

    ORC §2921.29 states “no person...shall refuse to disclose the person’s name, address, or date of birth.” The term “or” in Websters dictionary is a conjunction introducing an alternative. Thus, in plain English ORC §2921.29 allows a person to give one of the three alternatives. But, what if an arresting officer charges an Accused with not supplying all three because the officer treated the term “or” as if it meant “and.” According to ORC §1.02(F) (“And” may be read “or,” and “or” may be read “and” if the sense requires it.) the officer is permitted to make such interpretation. The officer's interpretation, however, would be in direct violation of ORC §1.42 which states in part “Words and phrases shall be read in context and construed according to the rules of grammar and common usage.” Accordingly, the application of term “and” in ORC §2921.29(A) would then be in direct violation of Hiibel. Clearly, ORC §2921.29(A), when applied with the term “and” instead of “or”, would be beyond what the U.S. Supreme Court has allowed under the Fourth Amendment and therefore, ORC §2921.29 would be unconstitutional.

    If an Accused gave their name, but was arrested and jailed for not giving his address and date of birth, the arrest and jailing would be under the color of law and in violation of the Accused's constitutional right under the U.S. and Ohio Constitution.

  3. #3
    Regular Member OneBadUnit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    You may want to rethink your pamphlet as it related to 22921.29.
    Thanks for the reply CoL! I'm unclear on what you are pointing out that I need to re-think... do I have an error? Or are you suggesting I make clear they ONLY need to give one of the three (name, address, OR DoB)?

    I changed the format, made it look a little nicer, and converted to a PDF format. This is only to provide some basic information to KY residents new to OC, like myself, and who live so close to Cincinnati that they need to understand those laws as well.

  4. #4
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneBadUnit View Post
    Thanks for the reply CoL! I'm unclear on what you are pointing out that I need to re-think... do I have an error? Or are you suggesting I make clear they ONLY need to give one of the three (name, address, OR DoB)?
    The pamphlet itself is OK. The problem is that the statute is easily misunderstood. The citizens and the cops are ignorant of the law. The citizen because he chooses to be ignorant, the cop intentionally being ignorant so he can violate your rights.

    Hiibel made it clear, under the Fourth Amendment your name only, not your address or date of birth.

    And you only have to give your name if the cop can articulate that some sort of crime is about to be committed.

    Sometimes in the quest to help, we misinform.

  5. #5
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    I like the pamphlet.
    I know it's pretty full, but while you included "inducing panic", citizens are often threatened with "disorderly conduct" as well. Wonder if 2921.29 might be reduced to make room for 2917.11?

  6. #6
    Regular Member OneBadUnit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhclark View Post
    I like the pamphlet.
    I know it's pretty full, but while you included "inducing panic", citizens are often threatened with "disorderly conduct" as well. Wonder if 2921.29 might be reduced to make room for 2917.11?
    Reduced and updated; thanks for the input!

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    Looks great!
    Thanks!

  8. #8
    Regular Member whitewolf68's Avatar
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    I have to agree it looks great!

    Thank you for creating a pocket guide for OC.

  9. #9
    Regular Member OneBadUnit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitewolf68 View Post
    I have to agree it looks great!

    Thank you for creating a pocket guide for OC.
    Thank you

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