Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: church with school in it

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    nowhere
    Posts
    631

    church with school in it

    ok so i just had a random thought. I don't go to church, but on the very very very rare occasion, i might accompany my wife and her parents to church for a holiday or something.

    but i just realized. the church has a school in it. now granted, school is monday-friday, and church is on sunday.


    sssoooo...........how does that work??? or is it simply a school end of story???

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio_vette View Post
    ok so i just had a random thought. I don't go to church, but on the very very very rare occasion, i might accompany my wife and her parents to church for a holiday or something.

    but i just realized. the church has a school in it. now granted, school is monday-friday, and church is on sunday.


    sssoooo...........how does that work??? or is it simply a school end of story???
    §948.61(1)(b) “School” means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in s. 115.001 (15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    nowhere
    Posts
    631
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    §948.61(1)(b) “School” means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in s. 115.001 (15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.
    i was actually looking at that shortly before i posted, but didn't know if there was some other writing somewhere else that said: "except as", since that seems to be the most common phrase trying to read through all these laws and figure out which goes with what.


    but now correct me if i'm wrong. didn't i read somewhere in one of the many back and forth paragraphs that you could get permission from to carry on school grounds??? i'll have to try and find it again unless you are faster. LOL but if that was the case, couldn't i get permission to carry while at a church function (for me meaning sunday morning church).

  4. #4
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    The exceptions to school carry are in §948.605, and there isn't one for "permission."

    How did you read §948.61 without reading the previous §948.605? They're on the same page. Page 12 of the PDF.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...atutes/948.pdf 292 KB 13 pages
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-30-2012 at 05:15 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    nowhere
    Posts
    631
    aahh found it.........i think.



    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-...p44-sec922.pdf

    922 (q) (2) (B) (v)

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a
    contract entered into between a school in the
    school zone and the individual or an employer
    of the individual;




    so does that mean that if i "enter into contract" with the school that i can enter the church on sunday while carrying, that i'd be covered???

  6. #6
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    That's the federal GFSZ. Wisconsin implemented it in § 948.605.

    Yeah, sure, a "contract."
    A contract has requirements beyond permission, a meeting of the minds and quid pro quo. Contract law is vastly more convoluted than criminal law, or even civil law.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-30-2012 at 05:26 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    nowhere
    Posts
    631
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    That's the federal GFSZ. Wisconsin implemented it in § 948.605.

    oh i see. bummer. totally overlooked that that was for the "zone", not the building.

  8. #8
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    No. I think you're on the right track to the contract exception.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    nowhere
    Posts
    631
    ok i'm really sorry. i'm really confused. not trying to push a point that doesn't exist, but i'm having a hard time seeing what it is that i'm missing. i was just looking for something else, and stumbled on this.

    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...q-20111020.pdf

    A. Firearms
    Are there restrictions on carrying a firearm on school property?

    Yes. It is a felony for a person to knowingly possess a firearm (concealed or
    otherwise) on the grounds of a school. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(a).
    It is a forfeiture for a person to knowingly possess a firearm (concealed or
    otherwise) at a place that the person knows or has reasonable cause to believe
    is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(a).

    What are the exceptions?

    There are a number of exceptions to the restrictions on possessing a firearm in
    or on school grounds or within 1,000 feet of school grounds.
    It is lawful to possess a firearm in or on the grounds of a school or within
    1,000 feet of the grounds of a school as follows:

     On private property that is not part of school grounds. Wis. Stat.
    § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(i).
     For use in a program approved by a school in the school zone. Wis. Stat.
    § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(iv).
    In accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school
    zone and the individual or an employer of the individual. Wis. Stat.
    § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(v).

     By a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity. Wis. Stat.
    § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(vi).
     The firearm is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing
    school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands
    open to hunting, if the entry on the school premises is authorized by school
    authorities. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(vii).
     The firearm is not loaded and is encased or in a locked firearms rack that is
    on a motor vehicle. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)3a and b.
     By a state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)2m.
     By a person legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided
    that hunting may be allowed in the school forest. Wis. Stat.
    § 948.605(2)(b)3m.
    A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may
    possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not
    in or on school grounds
    .
    Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.


    Can a person with a CCW license or out-of-state CCW license carry a concealed weapon
    in or on school grounds?

    As noted above, no. The law does not allow a CCW licensee to carry a firearm,
    concealed or openly displayed, in or on school grounds unless one of the other
    statutory exceptions listed above exists
    and then only when in compliance with
    those exceptions. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.


    so now i feel like i just came full circle. the way i understand it, it says that
    1) with CCW i can enter "school zone"
    2) i can go in or on school grounds as long as i "have entered into contract with the school".

    what am i missing, or am i actually right??? i'm really trying to understand this, but just as with alot of other rules, it seems like the more you read through the books, the more contradictions one finds.
    Last edited by scorpio_vette; 03-30-2012 at 05:36 PM.

  10. #10
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    An exception to Wisconsin and federal GFSZ is a "contract."

    Thanks for the cut&paste of the FAQ that was alluded to as providing an exception for unlicensed carry on the public highway within the 1000 feet of the GFSZ. I was pretty confident that there was not such an exception in the DoJ FAQ.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-30-2012 at 05:52 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,839
    The church owns the school, the school does not own the church. School grounds include only school grounds and not church grounds which are not part of the school grounds. The church is private property. Any church private property not part of school grounds "should" be exempt. IANAL and have not consulted a lawyer regarding this premise.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 03-30-2012 at 07:33 PM.

  12. #12
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The church owns the school, the school does not own the church. School grounds include only school grounds and not church grounds which are not part of the school grounds. The church is private property. Any church private property not part of school grounds "should" be exempt. IANAL and have not consulted a lawyer regarding this premise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    §948.61(1)(b) “School” means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in s. 115.001 (15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.
    +1
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-30-2012 at 07:38 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    nowhere
    Posts
    631
    so that sounds correct then???

    If i "enter into contract" with the school/church in this case, then i'm legally allowed to carry to church even though i'd be on school ground, giving me the ability to still attend church if i so choose???

    think i'm gonna have to go visit the pastor there sometime soon and talk to him about it. he's also the guy that married my wife and me.

  14. #14
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    You are welcome to speak to the pastor. It is unlikely that he is agent for the proprietors, that are more likely your board of deacons or somesuch - the owners. It might be more direct to speak to the board's attorney.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Little Chute, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    128
    It does look like if you get permission from the people in charge, you would be able carry.... much in the way that the proprietor of a class B establishment could give permission. I'd just keep physical proof of it on you while at church.

    Just how I'm looking seeing it....
    <-----Leading by example....while armed

    Wisconsin democrats are a tough bunch, and you know what they say-- "when the going gets tough...."

    A "No Guns" sign protects me as much as a speed limit sign keeps people from speeding.

  16. #16
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Deek View Post
    It does look like if you get permission from the people in charge,
    No. The requirement word in the exception is "contract." "At common law, the elements of a contract are offer, acceptance, intention to create legal relations, and consideration."
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-31-2012 at 09:18 AM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Little Chute, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    128
    And the difference between a contract and written permission is?.... A contract is an agreement between two people/entities make something happen or set up rules and/or a framework of conditions for work to be performed. Whereas "Permission" is just an official OK. In a most basic sense....

    Right?

    Maybe there could be a "contract" for the OP to provide "security" during the service......

    Theres a loophole for ya.....
    <-----Leading by example....while armed

    Wisconsin democrats are a tough bunch, and you know what they say-- "when the going gets tough...."

    A "No Guns" sign protects me as much as a speed limit sign keeps people from speeding.

  18. #18
    Herr Heckler Koch
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    No. The requirement word in the exception is "contract." "At common law, the elements of a contract are offer, acceptance, intention to create legal relations, and consideration."
    +1

    ETA Wisconsin Statutes Chapters 400 - 429 have contract requirements.

    §402.201(2)(g) “Contract” means the total legal obligation that results from the parties’ agreement as determined by chs. 401 to 411 as supplemented by any other applicable laws. (Compare “Agreement.”)
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-31-2012 at 09:46 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •