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Thread: Changing my mind out of respect for others here.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Changing my mind out of respect for others here.

    In thinking it over very heavily for the past 24 hours, I have made the decision to reverse my opposition to SB59. I am doing this not because I have changed my beliefs and concerns, but rather I believe that if those here are not going to be convinced to agree with me, I may as well help everyone else get what they want. If it will be widely considered a push for gun rights, and if passed a gun rights victory, I will do what i can now to help. I will also be doing what I can in the mean time and until such time as I'm dead or disabled to make what I'd consider more serious progress, and I of course ask that we all try to stay united in that goal.

    I do not now and will not ever believe in heavily democratic decision making, but I also don't believe in ******* contests involving those who agree on the vast majority of issues but can't come to a consensus, or at least a more evenly divided disagreement. Accordingly, I am also asking everyone else who initially agreed with me, to also change their minds.

    I will be calling my rep back to inform them of my new found support for SB59, as well as contacting every non OCing gun owner I know to ask them to also contact their reps.

    Further, I want it made clear that nothing I have said on this matter should be regarded as related to the CLSD, or my book since my book oddly and irrelevantly keeps getting brought up. I have volunteered for both MOC and CLSD, but I have never publicly represented either in any type of official capacity. My opinions on SB59 are no exception.

    I am making this decision based on respect for everyone else here and the good work we've done together in the past, as well as the good work I want us to do together now and into the future. I will be back very soon. I look forward to seeing many of you in weeks to come.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  2. #2
    Darth2A-Dfnder
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    You were my inspiration. You let Pat get to you?


    Does this mean you won't be burning your unconstitutional CPL with me at the con carrie rally on May 19?


    I hope we'll all get con carrie some day.

  3. #3
    313
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    Sometimes our individual beliefs have to be compromised for the good of the many. Thereare some things that I don't like. But in the legislative process is one of compromise. The legislature compromised when they included PFZs in Shall Issue. 12 yers of history has brought them to the compromise of training and the exemption for CPL holders. In the future we will have history to press on for other changes.

    Thanks for your reconsideration of the importance of a unified effort to achieve our ultimate goals.

  4. #4
    313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth2A-Dfnder View Post
    You were my inspiration. You let Pat get to you?


    Does this mean you won't be burning your unconstitutional CPL with me at the con carrie rally on May 19?


    I hope we'll all get con carrie some day.
    Don't be fooled this tool is NOT Pat!!!
    Last edited by 313; 03-31-2012 at 02:08 AM.

  5. #5
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    ^ I believe you.

    @Michigander. I know that you have reached this decision with some difficulty. This is NOT the last battle in the fight for gun rights, keep that in mind. I applaud your move towards unification here, that really is what it boils down to. We need to get the gun owners of the state headed in one direction when we move on something like this. I hope more follow in your lead. You have not compromised your position or beliefs, those will still be fought for, and we understand agree with your positions, and will fight alongside you as the opportunities present themselves.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 03-31-2012 at 02:36 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth2A-Dfnder View Post
    You were my inspiration. You let Pat get to you?
    If a simple bullying Internet troll or any of his sock puppets could sway my opinions, I would have no business participating in this forum.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    If a simple bullying Internet troll or any of his sock puppets could sway my opinions, I would have no business participating in this forum.
    Now I smell a red herring.

  8. #8
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Glad to see you helping support this bill. Is it an ideal bill that will make Michigan a perfect gun rights state? No. Is it a bill that will allow more people a reasonable opportunity to carry in more places? Yes.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Let's see: 9 posts so far and 4 are from Pat! Less than 50% saturation? He's getting lazy since he took control of MOC's forum I guess? What a waste of an otherwise keen mind. SAD
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  10. #10
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Even though I feel its a very small step at least its in the right direction.

    If we get sb59 past, in a few years we'll be able to say " see, nothing bad happened" and we'll be able to keep pushing toward con carry.

    Baby steps people, they work!
    Last edited by dougwg; 03-31-2012 at 09:08 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Thanks Michigander. Oh, and I'm still serious about you starting a state-wide training org. to take the place of the NRA classes. I think you'd do it up right.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Thank you for helping us, Michigander. Like Bronson said -- if you want to start that training organization, let me know -- I have some connections who will help you get started.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  13. #13
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    I'm with Q and Bronson. I thank you for reconsidering your position and I really hope you consider the state training organization.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  14. #14
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Thank you for the support on SB59. I agree it is not what we want long term, but it will take time and steps in between to get there which is probably why it is called "long term". I can be idealistic at times which helps me achieve far beyond what I even dreamed possible, but I have given that up for certain actions like this one which I believe helps far more than perceived hurts.

    One of the bill's components is the ability to carry while taking controlled substances according to doctor's prescribed orders. This is "near and dear" to me as I have been experiencing severe headaches for the past 7 months and have seen many doctors including those at the MIND Clinic (associated with U of M). 2 of the 6 headache meds prescribed are controlled substances, only 1 of which I would feel comfortable carrying while taking it but do not do so (the other one is decently strong and I am a "cheap date"). Now that I have determined the cause of the headaches and working with doctors for resolution, I do not have nearly as many bad headache days requiring such medicines but it would be good to have the ability to carry if I needed such.

  15. #15
    Regular Member G22's Avatar
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    Thanks Michigander.

    When this passes I look forward to working along with everyone to improve our small gains.

  16. #16
    313
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    I also want to express praise and adulation for your flip flop. However, I am certain that your change has more to do with your desire to appear favorable on ocdo than it has with any principles or convictions you have.

    The damage to this bill you wreaked upon it is lasting. A call to show a change of heart to yopur rep is certain to be met with some confusion as to what you really stand for. If anything.

    Nonetheless, thanks for your non-support.

    We are all looking forward to hanging out at the campfire and singing kumbaya with you.

    http://youtu.be/p3MiD_U4CHQ

    This is like thanking a child for finally doing what is right.
    Last edited by 313; 03-31-2012 at 06:55 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    ...see, even Pat thanks you.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  18. #18
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 313 View Post
    I also want to express praise and adulation for your flip flop. However, I am certain that your change has more to do with your desire to appear favorable on ocdo than it has with any principles or convictions you have.

    The damage to this bill you wreaked upon it is lasting. A call to show a change of heart to yopur rep is certain to be met with some confusion as to what you really stand for. If anything.

    Nonetheless, thanks for your non-support.

    We are all looking forward to hanging out at the campfire and singing kumbaya with you.

    http://youtu.be/p3MiD_U4CHQ

    This is like thanking a child for finally doing what is right.
    He's always been a well respected member.

    He doesn't deserve your attack.
    Last edited by dougwg; 03-31-2012 at 07:06 PM.

  19. #19
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    NEVER COMPROMISE ON PRINCIPLE! It IS proper to change one's mind on the specific tool being used to support said principle!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  20. #20
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    He's always been a well respected member.

    He doesn't deserve your attack.
    +1

  21. #21
    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    He's always been a well respected member.

    He doesn't deserve your attack.
    Nobody listens to him. Like when your talking to somebody and your kid keeps saying " dad, dad, dad, dad, dad", just block it out. Michigander thanks for the change of heart, I knew you had stones, you've made me see how sometimes it might not be your way but supporting your friends is more important. Together we are unstoppable.

  22. #22
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    If a simple bullying Internet troll or any of his sock puppets could sway my opinions, I would have no business participating in this forum.
    Agreed I have never met you but I do respect the way you handle yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Thank you for the support on SB59. I agree it is not what we want long term, but it will take time and steps in between to get there which is probably why it is called "long term". I can be idealistic at times which helps me achieve far beyond what I even dreamed possible, but I have given that up for certain actions like this one which I believe helps far more than perceived hurts.

    One of the bill's components is the ability to carry while taking controlled substances according to doctor's prescribed orders. This is "near and dear" to me as I have been experiencing severe headaches for the past 7 months and have seen many doctors including those at the MIND Clinic (associated with U of M). 2 of the 6 headache meds prescribed are controlled substances, only 1 of which I would feel comfortable carrying while taking it but do not do so (the other one is decently strong and I am a "cheap date"). Now that I have determined the cause of the headaches and working with doctors for resolution, I do not have nearly as many bad headache days requiring such medicines but it would be good to have the ability to carry if I needed such.
    I hope for you fair winds and following sea's friend! But just be carefull what "port" your in when the "cheap date" affects start, FYI I have an EP background, so if you want I could follow you around in a suit with dark sunglasses, and every now and then glare at things and people.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    +1
    +2
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 04-01-2012 at 12:18 AM.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  23. #23
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Agreed I have never met you but I do respect the way you handle yourself.2


    We did meet at least once actually, most memorably perhaps on a crazy adventure in the fall of 2010. I can say as well that I respect the way you handle yourself. I in fact hold you in as high of regard as anyone here.

    Edit to add- I headed out today to test drive my car, loaded down with all my stuff, and it shuttered like crazy, and the transmission overheated. As a best case scenario, I will be needing a new torque converter and a few other parts including some springs and servos, which will entail pulling the transmission and very possibly waiting a few days on parts. Thank God the shop I was working at is letting me fix my car there. Regardless of how easy or hard the fix will be, it's going to take me a solid 4 additional days until I can head out for Michigan.
    Last edited by Michigander; 04-01-2012 at 03:39 AM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    We did meet at let once actually, most memorably perhaps on a crazy adventure in the fall of 2010. I can say as well that I respect the way you handle yourself. I in fact hold you in as high of regard as anyone here.

    Edit to add- I headed out today to test drive my car, loaded down with all my stuff, and it shuttered like crazy, and the transmission overheated. As a best case scenario, I will be needing a new torque converter and a few other parts including some springs and servos, which will entail pulling the transmission and very possibly waiting a few days on parts. Thank God the shop I was working at is letting me fix my car there. Regardless of how easy or hard the fix will be, it's going to take me a solid 4 additional days until I can head out for Michigan.
    Yep _ I was part of that adventure also that may come back to haunt WARREN PD. On a side note, has anyone found out what they pi$$ed away on legal fees over the Hamman case?
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  25. #25
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    On a side note, has anyone found out what they pi$$ed away on legal fees over the Hamman case?
    Good question.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

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