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Thread: A question not asked: Forensics in Zimmerman case..

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    A question not asked: Forensics in Zimmerman case..

    Cant believe this didnt occur to me before, and can believe even less that amidst all this hoopla and debate surrounding the Z case, no else seems to have thought of it, either..
    While reviewing some other autopsy reports today, one of which involved a shooting victim in a situation not unlike what is alleged to have happened with M and Z, i dawned on me:

    The forensics of the shooting , and the autopsy, would have cleared up a lot of the "who-did-what" nonsense early-on.
    If, as is thought, Martin was on top of Z when Z shot him- the angle/ trajectory of his shot into M- esp. at that close range, would have been pretty clear.
    Of course, the investigators in this already know this, so It is certainly one angle that explains, or should explain, to folks why Z was not arrested or charged..

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    Now, you know you can't go interjecting fact and logic into a situation such as this. The masses would never accept it anyway at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trailblazer2003 View Post
    Now, you know you can't go interjecting fact and logic into a situation such as this. The masses would never accept it anyway at this point.
    Right? Common-sense and facts would just get in the way of the agendas...

    But, I do think the PD in Sanford could have found a way to express-even if not in details that would be in violation of Martin's medical privacy- that the forensic evidence of his death tell a different story than what biased folks would LIKE to be the case. This may have helped, somewhat at least, to put the deep-six on a lot of the speculation surrounding such a case.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    During the scuffle on the ground Zimmerman began trying to get his handgun out of his belt. Trayvon attempted to get the gun away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.

    The impact of the shot thrust Trayvon upward, backward, and partially spun him around to land on his stomach.

    The handgun was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. The police took immediate custody of the weapon when they arrived on scene. The gun was recovered with a full magazine and only the chambered round had been fired.

    This is a condition associated with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause this condition is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.

    This would indicate, as the coroner’s office affirmed, that specific gunshot residue patterns and cuts were present in certain places on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), and that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired.


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    The gun was recovered with a full magazine and only the chambered round had been fired.
    This, if actually true to the word, would definitely imply that the gun jammed when it was fired (failed to feed the next round), since the magazine is reported to have still been full. That would then imply that the shot was from "contact-distance", since such contact with an autoloader during firing can result in a malfunction. Another possibility is that, during the scuffle, the magazine was partially or fully dislodged.
    Last edited by MedWheeler; 04-02-2012 at 11:11 AM.

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    Regular Member LkWd_Don's Avatar
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    Media not blameless

    It appears that the media has been fabricating or editing evidence to mislead away from the truth and further inflame tensions.
    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/...210020839.html
    They have little to no respect for what the truth is and are only looking to sell their papers/get ratings.
    Lets Unite and REMIND our Government that WE are the source of their authority and that WE demand our Rights be returned, Unabridged, Non-infringed, without denial or disparagement. The faults of a few, reflect badly on many, I will not Support WAC H&K USP .40

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    Quote Originally Posted by MedWheeler View Post
    This, if actually true to the word, would definitely imply that the gun jammed when it was fired (failed to feed the next round), since the magazine is reported to have still been full. That would then imply that the shot was from "contact-distance", since such contact with an autoloader during firing can result in a malfunction. Another possibility is that, during the scuffle, the magazine was partially or fully dislodged.
    The cited blog article asserted GSR on Trayvon's hand.

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    During the scuffle on the ground Zimmerman began trying to get his handgun out of his belt. Trayvon attempted to get the gun away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.

    The impact of the shot thrust Trayvon upward, backward, and partially spun him around to land on his stomach.

    The handgun was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. The police took immediate custody of the weapon when they arrived on scene. The gun was recovered with a full magazine and only the chambered round had been fired.

    This is a condition associated with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause this condition is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.

    This would indicate, as the coroner’s office affirmed, that specific gunshot residue patterns and cuts were present in certain places on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), and that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired.


    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...nnabe-gangsta/
    Funny how facts confuse the media!

    Interesting read!
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    Just because forensics says Trayvon had burns indicating he was trying to take the gun, does not disprove the theory that he was afraid and fighting for his life. What if this was Z getting in his face and then a fight ensued that Z was loosing and he panicked. That would still be murder.

    I am just saying, not taking sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunns View Post
    Just because forensics says Trayvon had burns indicating he was trying to take the gun, does not disprove the theory that he was afraid and fighting for his life. What if this was Z getting in his face and then a fight ensued that Z was loosing and he panicked. That would still be murder.

    I am just saying, not taking sides.
    That's a good point. Although shouldn't the angle be different depending on who was on top?

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunns View Post
    Just because forensics says Trayvon had burns indicating he was trying to take the gun, does not disprove the theory that he was afraid and fighting for his life. What if this was Z getting in his face and then a fight ensued that Z was loosing and he panicked. That would still be murder.

    I am just saying, not taking sides.
    But this would conflict with the alleged witness' story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coltman151 View Post
    That's a good point. Although shouldn't the angle be different depending on who was on top?
    He is saying that it doesn't really matter who is on top or who is winning. If Z started a the violence with M and then M got the upper hand then Z would only have the right to use deadly physical force in certain limited circumstances. And I don't know if there is any circumstances that you can use deadly physical force if you started the physical force in Florida.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Another bit of forensic evidence that hasn't been discussed is the condition of Mr. Martins hands, specifically his knuckles. IF he was, indeed, pummeling Mr. Zimmerman, then his knuckles should show signs of trauma. This has not been discussed at all in the media. It will be interesting to see if the condition of his hands comes out in "discovery" or in the trial (because there WILL be a trial).

    I'm wondering how much time the media will dedicate to corrections and apologies when the truth of this situation is revealed in court by forensic experts and eye witnesses. Probably not NEARLY as much time as they have spent lynching Mr. Zimmerman before the truth is known.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I'm wondering how much time the media will dedicate to corrections and apologies when the truth of this situation is revealed in court by forensic experts and eye witnesses. Probably not NEARLY as much time as they have spent lynching Mr. Zimmerman before the truth is known.
    Even though I think Zimmerman is innocent too we shouldn't be so fast to jump to conclusions. If Zimmerman did shoot Martin for any reason that doesn't constitute justifiable homicide then most main stream media would have been right all along. But if, when the truth is reveled, Zimmerman is found to have acted in self defense then I do think you are right about media not devoting much time to corrections and apologies. But why would they? A lot of people don't hold them to as high of standards as they once were. Honor has greatly left our culture as a whole.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    --snip-- Honor has greatly left our culture as a whole.
    What price honor? What price integrity?

    Sold for 30 pieces of silver.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    What irks me is the mainstream media always showing a picture of M in his football uniform when he was probably 12 years old. It sure does make him appear to be a clean cut youth.

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    Media fueled Racism

    The Main Stream Media should be held responsible for feeding the flames of this situation, they continually called "Z" *** White Hispanic Descent *** and also with Sharpton/Jackson showing up to continue feeding the distorted facts is disgusting.

    When this issue comes to trial, the truth will be known, then hopefully some sense of sanity will rule and all involved will rise up and demand that the wrongs of the media righted and lessons will be learned and applied for future cases.
    Last edited by scott58dh; 04-07-2012 at 04:09 PM.
    Peace !

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimK View Post
    What irks me is the mainstream media always showing a picture of M in his football uniform when he was probably 12 years old. It sure does make him appear to be a clean cut youth.
    The current M didn't fit the story they were trying to portray. It would be hard to gain support for a "thug".

    Quote Originally Posted by scott58dh View Post
    The Main Stream Media should be held responsible for feeding the flames of this situation, they continually called "Z" *** White Hispanic Descent *** and also with Sharpton/Jackson showing up to continue feeding the distorted facts is disgusting.

    When this issue comes to trial, the truth will be known, then hopefully some sense of sanity will rule and all involved will rise up and demand that the wrongs of the media righted and lessons will be learned and applied for future cases.
    If Z is found innocent then he does need to sue MSM for all the misleading things they have gave to the public as "fact".
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    What price honor? What price integrity?

    Sold for 30 pieces of silver.

    Speaking of which, the background of the "Audio Forensic Expert" (Tom Owen) that has been trotted out by the press extolling the "scientific certainty" of the software he uses is an interesting tale indeed.

    Turns out, he OWNS the company that developed and is marketing this software--at $5,000 a pop.

    Want the truth--follow the money...

    http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-lineh...rsenic-experts
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Those making race an issue are feeding the flames, including those of us here that take part in that.

    This thread, indeed this forum is, NOT about race.

    Discuss the facts of the case responsibly w/o being side tracked and/or hijacking the thread. Will even go so far as to say that if your opinions aren't race neutral, then they do not belong here and will not be condoned.

    Did I say that nice enough?
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Those making race an issue are feeding the flames, including those of us here that take part in that.

    This thread, indeed this forum is, NOT about race.

    Discuss the facts of the case responsibly w/o being side tracked and/or hijacking the thread. Will even go so far as to say that if your opinions aren't race neutral, then they do not belong here and will not be condoned.

    Did I say that nice enough?
    Yes, I apologize, my replies to the thread have been deleted.

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    Indeed. The MSM, and most of the sheeple out there who gobble up whatever the media puts out as gospel, without any ability to see past an agenda, are going to do what they always do.
    The only reason they do so, is that folks actually give such nonsense the time of day, to begin with.

    As for Z's case-should it go to Grand Jury or any court-should ,I would hope, disregard such nonsense, and focus on the actual, physical evidence, and forensics.
    Witnesses to this thing who actually SAW anything useful seem to be few and far between, and less than entirely reliable anyway-if the 911 calls are any indication..
    Looking at the TRAJECTORY of the shot that killed M should be THE telling element of what actually took place.

    If Z was down, on the ground, and fired up into M, over him- that bullet track will show as such in a way that should be obvious enough. Same for the other way around, If it were Z on top of M, and firing down into him- the track will be very different, and obvious as well, I'd think. And that was the key point to my original post.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenfgasTN View Post
    Yes, I apologize, my replies to the thread have been deleted.
    Much appreciated - the intent of my prior statement on this was not to single out anyone but to refocus the thread, to remind people of the purpose of OCDO and that much of our strength is the resolve to deal in facts.

    Race has been made an issue by the media and others - that is unfortunate. OCDO will take the high ground when discussing this - it is not to absolutely forbid any reference to race which can be a very emotion/volatile issue for some. The physical characteristics of a person aid in describing them for purposes of identification, but when such identifiers become the central theme, we all lose. Do we want a divided forum, much less a country split along such lines? Definitely not! Taking the high road is not always easy, but well worth the climb. Sometimes the choice of direction is but a matter of a few words or a single phrase.

    Have cleaned up/removed the posts that were marked as deleted by individual posters both as a courtesy for having done so and to allow the thread to be read with greater ease.

    Thank you gentlemen, your personal responsibility is to be commended.

    Sorry about this interjection/diversion of the thread, but felt something needed to be said. Returning herewith to the previous discussion stream.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Yeah, you gotta love how MSM shows only pictures of 12 year old TM and mug shots of Zimmerman. That in itself should be enough to prove to a reasonably intelligent person that the media is not to be trusted to deliver any sort of competently reliable info unless it fits into a pattern they are attempting to show to benefit their own agenda. In my opinion, if Zimmerman is found not guilty, the people with their names on the articles and all host media outlets that omit or unjustly slant facts in order to affect public belief, and any false witnesses, should be charged with defamation of character and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The national media outlets should have separate charges in each state so that once found guilty we can actually take back the media and get some actual facts reported for a change. Just the opinion of someone who is sick and tired of the media being allowed to falsely report half-truths as fact and not be held accountable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo4PapaBravo View Post
    Yeah, you gotta love how MSM shows only pictures of 12 year old TM and mug shots of Zimmerman. That in itself should be enough to prove to a reasonably intelligent person that the media is not to be trusted to deliver any sort of competently reliable info unless it fits into a pattern they are attempting to show to benefit their own agenda. In my opinion, if Zimmerman is found not guilty, the people with their names on the articles and all host media outlets that omit or unjustly slant facts in order to affect public belief, and any false witnesses, should be charged with defamation of character and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The national media outlets should have separate charges in each state so that once found guilty we can actually take back the media and get some actual facts reported for a change. Just the opinion of someone who is sick and tired of the media being allowed to falsely report half-truths as fact and not be held accountable.
    Not a bad idea at all, actually. Though I'm not sure that such charges could be pressed, or by whom. A civil-suit, for sure, for Z to consider.
    Law-types, weigh -in?
    It's aggravating beyond belief that the media is granted free-reign to run amok with such stories-either ignoring, or shunting actual facts, in favor of inflaming, or sensationalizing things for their own gains- or out-right falsifying or "editing" things (and then claiming it was a mistake, not intentional...uh uh.)

    And they continue to get away with doing so, simply because no one seems to call them to task on it.
    Should probably heavily promote a campaign to boy-cot the companies who advertise with these media outlets, as well. It's a favorite tactic of the other side, when attacking media that doesnt toe the line for them.
    Last edited by j4l; 04-08-2012 at 03:28 PM.

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