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Are CCW Legal Defense Lawyers/ Association Memberships a Wise Investment ?

LkWd_Don

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
572
Location
Dolan Springs, AZ
Don't know how you could have done that - we only have 64,971 threads and 1,113,909 posts when I just checked :p..:lol:

Our search engine is not state of the art either, but it helps if you go "advanced search" then "search single content type" - it's near the top right on all forum pages. Use key words, rather than full sentences. Suggest opening the OCDO forum in a new window (two open) in order to protect where you are if you are in the middle of a post.

More good info.. Thank you.
 

scott58dh

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Where to go from here ?

To Grapeshot and other "Brothers & Sisters in Arms",

I would like to explain my objective with having started this thread as I originally intended it to be viewed as.

ORIGINAL POINT BEING = I was just looking thru a list of CCW Legal Defense Assoc's and was wondering, if any others out there in the "Carry" world believe if these "after you draw your firearm contact us" firms are really worth the investment of $95 - $300 yearly memberships."
***are they a wise and legitimate investment *** & ***curious about Lobby group memberships***.

I then submitted a couple of lists to be used as examples of wise (or not) choices to be made concerning 2 different topics plus a suggestion of an interesting site which I came across, (This site has LOTS of Info,>>> http://www.americanfirearms.org/<<<).

I have also made some follow up points to elaborate more on said topics, so If I have confused the issues, well I'll just say that Barney didn't always plan to discharge his firearm,,,,accidentally !?!...:eek:

So, I'll bow out for now, get off of my soap box :cool: and see how things progress from here.

Hopefully we can keep things in focus here as I believe that we should be united for RKBA and all that can be accomplished TOGETHER as it was when neighbor helped neighbor, and IF that needs to be discussed, well I'm all for it ! ;)
 
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LkWd_Don

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Messages
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Dolan Springs, AZ
~~ clipped for brevity ~~ I would like to explain my objective with having started this thread as I originally intended it to be viewed as.
ORIGINAL POINT BEING = I was just looking thru a list of CCW Legal Defense Assoc's and was wondering, if any others out there in the "Carry" world believe if these "after you draw your firearm contact us" firms are really worth the investment of $95 - $300 yearly memberships." ***are they a wise and legitimate investment *** & ***curious about Lobby group memberships***.
I then submitted a couple of lists to be used as examples of wise (or not) choices to be made concerning 2 different topics plus a suggestion of an interesting site which I came across, (This site has LOTS of Info,>>> http://www.americanfirearms.org/<<<).
~~ Hopefully we can keep things in focus here as I believe that we should be united for RKBA and all that can be accomplished TOGETHER as it was when neighbor helped neighbor, and IF that needs to be discussed, well I'm all for it ! ;)


I personally would not attempt to advise you of anything. I can suggest you ask yourself a couple of questions and then make your own decisions. I am not saying you should tell us what your answers are.. just that you should ask yourself to help you and you alone.
First I think will be.. In your little segment of the United States what do you see as the general attitude of the people toward those who would protect themselves? to clarify it a bit.. Would they put you on a pedestal or trial?
Next would be.. How confident are you that if you had to exercise your right of self protection, that you could clearly articulate your need to protect yourself and by extension your decision to pull your carry weapon in that defense?

After you give careful consideration to how you answered those questions.. You should have a better understanding of whether or not a pre-paid legal defense would be worth your investment.

Now, in reference to your question about Gun-Rights or Gun Lobbying organizations. There are those who will provide you with some weapon related coverage or extended coverage if you feel you need it and some a Very Good. The only thing I can say beyond that is to let your conscience be your guide.
 

scott58dh

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Hi LkWd_Don,

Thanks very much for your "input". I will seriously consider your observations and greatly appreciate any further thots on this and other topics of your choosing.

As a footnote, I do have "acquaintances" that have served in the legal front-= State Trooper, Legislator, Senator & Judge, so I suppose that I should be able to gleen any necessay info from them.

Finally, what do you mean in your signature,,, "I will not Support WAC". Just curious ?
 

Grapeshot

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Valhalla
I personally would not attempt to advise you of anything. I can suggest you ask yourself a couple of questions and then make your own decisions. I am not saying you should tell us what your answers are.. just that you should ask yourself to help you and you alone.

First I think will be.. In your little segment of the United States what do you see as the general attitude of the people toward those who would protect themselves? to clarify it a bit.. Would they put you on a pedestal or trial?

Next would be.. How confident are you that if you had to exercise your right of self protection, that you could clearly articulate your need to protect yourself and by extension your decision to pull your carry weapon in that defense?

After you give careful consideration to how you answered those questions.. You should have a better understanding of whether or not a pre-paid legal defense would be worth your investment.

Now, in reference to your question about Gun-Rights or Gun Lobbying organizations. There are those who will provide you with some weapon related coverage or extended coverage if you feel you need it and some a Very Good. The only thing I can say beyond that is to let your conscience be your guide.

I also would not suppose to tell another what to do when there is potentially so much at stake.

There are some questions you might want to ask yourself though. In a "prepaid plan" what is covered and what is not.

Reading from one of the OP's suggested sites is the following explanation of services:


  • Key points in our program include: • A fee deposit paid by the Network to the member's attorney if the member has been involved in a self-defense incident. The deposit gets the legal defense immediately underway, with representation during questioning, and arranging for an independent investigation of the incident.

  • Network members are eligible for additional grants of financial assistance from the Network's Legal Defense Fund if they face unmeritorious prosecution or civil action after a self-defense incident occurring during their period of membership.

  • Key points in our program include: • A fee deposit paid by the Network to the member's attorney if the member has been involved in a self-defense incident. The deposit gets the legal defense immediately underway, with representation during questioning, and arranging for an independent investigation of the incident.

  • Network members are eligible for additional grants of financial assistance from the Network's Legal Defense Fund if they face unmeritorious prosecution or civil action after a self-defense incident occurring during their period of membership. http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

I have highlight certain words as you may see these as needing clarification through further inquiry.


  • self-defense incident = actual use of force, I would think. Other needs to defend against "charges" in the absence of a self-defense incident such as carrying where not allowed would likely not be covered and would presume to be disallowed.

  • unmeritorious = does this mean if the charges have "merit" you don't get benefit? Who decides?

  • arranging for an "independent investigation" = they will put you in touch with an attorney from their list, may not be the one you would otherwise have chosen and is the "investigation" to determine whether it is "unmeritorious' or "meritorious"?

  • deposit = not paying the full fee. $5,000 for a misdemeanor might be adequate, but $10,000 for a felony or multiple felonies is hardly a drop in the bucket. Not meaning to negate how good that check might look.

  • eligible for additional grants = no guarantee - what are the standards/criteria?


Personally, the two most important questions would center around self-defense incident and unmeritorious.
Caution should be exercised to get the full explanation of the terms and conditions - not just what you think the words say.

Each of us must chose and decide in accordance with our own needs and abilities.

Anyone from Virginia wishing to know whose card I carry in my wallet and why should feel free to ask me.
 
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LkWd_Don

Regular Member
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Mar 26, 2012
Messages
572
Location
Dolan Springs, AZ
Hi LkWd_Don, Thanks very much for your "input". ~~ clipped ~~
Finally, what do you mean in your signature,,, "I will not Support WAC". Just curious ?

I am glad that you will get some use from what I suggest and I am sorry, but if you lived close enough to sit and chat over a steaming cuppa-joe, I would explain my quote in detail. For now, I will only mention my suggestion that you let your conscience be your guide when it comes to Gun lobbying and then ask that you read what immediately precedes it.
 

scott58dh

Regular Member
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Oct 16, 2011
Messages
425
Location
why?
Hey Grapeshot, Awesome breakdown of the unknowns & variables that I needed to know ! Thanks for going above and beyond !

Hey lkWd, Well, ya' never know, it's a small world & stranger things have happened= meet up someday. Also, I sent you a p.m.

Take care all & TTYL ! ;<)
 
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Gil223

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2012
Messages
1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
I was just looking thru a list of CCW Legal Defense Assoc's and was wondering, if any others out there in the "Carry" world believe if these "after you draw your firearm contact us" firms are really worth the investment of $95 - $300 yearly memberships.

Also, are they a wise and legitimate investment or just extra "life insurance" for if/when an event may happen?

Here are a few links which I've found,,,

1-https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/membership/

2-http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

3-http://www.aggressivecriminaldefenselawfirm.com/CCW-Law-CPL-Law/

4-http://www.slateandjones.com/sample/whyjoin.html


Also, curious about Lobby group memberships,,

1-http://www.saf.org/

2-http://www.nationalgunrights.org/contact/

3-http://gunowners.org/

...And any others that you might support/ be aware of that are reputable and worth the $$$.


This site has LOTS of Info,>>> http://www.americanfirearms.org/<<<


:D "You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive." :dude:

The "plans" are nothing more than insurance policies to protect one against a specific occurrence of a singular type (I suppose in that respect they're similar to "flood insurance"). Like any other insurance, one pays a premium up-front against the possibility of "loss" (financial loss and/or loss of liberty) should that singular type of occurrence come to pass. Plans of this type are designed to protect us against such loss, or at least defend us if charges are brought. One poster mentioned "retainers" in passing, and unless you have more money than you know what to do with, keeping an attorney on retainer is financially impractical for most working-class citizens. On the other hand, retaining one after the fact would be even more costly. If you are a "reasonable and prudent" person, (as in not just waiting for any opportunity to perforate somebody) I would think the odds against your ever having to discharge your sidearm in a SD/DO situation are extremely high (depending upon the part of the country in which you live, work and the areas you frequent. East L.A. is probably more dangerous after dark than 'West Podunk', IA, so visiting East L.A. after dark would be increasing your chances of encountering a SD condition). There are many things that have to be weighed when considering legal assistance. I don't know about the others, but USCCA (Tim Schmidt) seems to be (IMHO) "pimping" for a particular law firm. It may be because they have an established track record of effective defense of shooting cases... or it may be because USCCA receives some compensation for "pimping".

I would suggest that folks consider the following when making such decisions:
1. Who they, themselves, are (background, temperament, friends and associates - all of which will likely become of interest if a shooting should occur)
2. Where they live/work/frequent (low crime or high crime areas)
3. How likely they feel the need for such legal defense insurance is (like any insurance, we only need it if/when we need it)
4. The REPUTATION of various plans, law firms, and/or individual attorneys they may be considering. (Most state bar associations have websites where you can see if there have been any sanctions against members of the legal profession, but I have never seen any 'win-loss score sheets' as such. Website "Reviews" are (unsurprisingly) less than objective. FTF is about the only way to "get a feel" for who you're dealing with.)

I have considered such plans, but not very seriously. I know myself, my area and the places I frequent well enough that I believe the odds of my needing such protection are very slim.

Compared to health insurance (like Blue Cross-Blue Shield) $95-$300 per year isn't a bad deal at all - IF whoever administers the plan has proven to provide effective defense in SD/DO shootings. Just my thoughts. Pax...
 

Grapeshot

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I wonder what the actuary tables might reveal and what actually experience reports might say?

X number of legal self-defense shootings by insured members vs total number of insured = both what percentage of members and what rate of income to expense for the company/insurer. That to me would determine whether such was a good buy or value.

I am reminded of when in my youth I sold health insurance. One of the policy types offered was Polio (infantile paralysis) protection for minors - #5.00/year bought $10,000.00 of coverage - a very narrow niche to say the least - and no way would it cover the cost of treatment of that decease. The profit margin to the company was huge. The marketing tactic was fear, emotionalism - but they did get a lot of piece of mind (emotionalism) for their money. The sales technique was "you can't afford to live w/o this." I saw people take money out of their grocery budget to make the weekly payments......I got out of the business.

Catastrophic insurance for a single, select type of event should not be high. Adding earth quake insurance to my home was much less annually than these SD policies and the coverage/benefit far, far exceeds the figures offered here.

There are some plans being talked about that I think will consider the variables more fairly.

Each person must make there own decision - ymmv.
 
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