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Thread: efectivness with the 45 acp

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    Regular Member robert1970's Avatar
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    efectivness with the 45 acp

    I carry a springfeild xd tactical in 45 acp I have read many accounts where the 45 has failed to stop a attacker.my question is with new modern hollopoints such as fedral hydra shock could thise still be a issue with the 45

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    The general common wisdom is that none of the common self-defense calibers are guaranteed man-stoppers. This is why battle rifles used to come in calibers like 30-06, not .45 acp.

    Shot placement is more important. Bad guys have been stopped with .380's and 9mm, and even smaller. But a peripheral hit with a .357 mag 158 grain wadcutter might not stop a determined or drugged attacker.

    Hollow-points have their place in the scheme of things, but shot-placement is king. Shot-placement with a hollow-point is even better--less chance of perforating (shoot-thru) the bad guy that goes on and hits an innocent on the other side of the bad guy.

    This is a rather complex subject, so get ready for a lot of reading.
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    Where on earth did u hear anything of the sort? If it was ever in-effective, it was likely due to someone shooting someone in the foot or the hand.
    A solid torso or head shot to the vitals with a .45 is right up there as one of THE most effective fighting rounds. At or around = to the .357 magnum.
    A very very well-documented fact since at least 1873.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Where on earth did u hear anything of the sort? If it was ever in-effective, it was likely due to someone shooting someone in the foot or the hand.
    A solid torso or head shot to the vitals with a .45 is right up there as one of THE most effective fighting rounds. At or around = to the .357 magnum.
    A very very well-documented fact since at least 1873.
    The thing with hollow-points- in any chambering, is they can sometimes work TOO well. By which I mean, they go in, and expand as intended-but do so too soon, dont penetrate deeply enough to hit any vitals, etc. Not always, but often enough. Hedge your bets with alternating loads of JHP and FMJ.

    "I have read many accounts where " and by all means, please link to these "accounts where".. we could use the comic-relief around here.
    Last edited by j4l; 04-04-2012 at 03:27 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Dear sweet and fluffy shivering Shiva - it's the caliber wars again. With a side order of hollow-points vs. FMJ under-penetration/over-penetration.

    I though the 5th graders settled this last semester - the only way to be sure is to lift off and nuke it from orbit.

    While being shot in the arm/foot/hand with a .50BMG is probably going to hurt, it will not tear your body apart or vaporize it. Getting shot in the eye or ear with a .22 short (at close range) is generally considered a one-shot killer - just ask any of the elephants that were taken by .22s.

    Geneally speaking the conventional wisdom says that you want to either 1) hit the central nervous system and shut everything down or 2) make holes so that blood leaks out in sufficient quantity so that the body dies of oxygen starvation. Just remember , when selecting option #2, that even if you blow the heart apart there is enough oxygen in te body for anywhere from 3 to 15 seconds of activity. Do not stand around admiring your aim and the prety hole you created - move and find cover and check to see that there are no other threats.

    Now, can we put this discussion of whose is bigger/badder to rest?

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Yes +1

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Dear sweet and fluffy shivering Shiva - it's the caliber wars again. With a side order of hollow-points vs. FMJ under-penetration/over-penetration.

    I though the 5th graders settled this last semester - the only way to be sure is to lift off and nuke it from orbit.

    While being shot in the arm/foot/hand with a .50BMG is probably going to hurt, it will not tear your body apart or vaporize it. Getting shot in the eye or ear with a .22 short (at close range) is generally considered a one-shot killer - just ask any of the elephants that were taken by .22s.

    Geneally speaking the conventional wisdom says that you want to either 1) hit the central nervous system and shut everything down or 2) make holes so that blood leaks out in sufficient quantity so that the body dies of oxygen starvation. Just remember , when selecting option #2, that even if you blow the heart apart there is enough oxygen in te body for anywhere from 3 to 15 seconds of activity. Do not stand around admiring your aim and the prety hole you created - move and find cover and check to see that there are no other threats.

    Now, can we put this discussion of whose is bigger/badder to rest?

    stay safe.
    Well said Sir!
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert1970 View Post
    I carry a springfeild xd tactical in 45 acp I have read many accounts where the 45 has failed to stop a attacker.my question is with new modern hollopoints such as fedral hydra shock could thise still be a issue with the 45
    The Federal Hydra Shock load is older technology. If you want to go with Federal ammunition, consider their very fine HST 230gr in either standard or +P loadings.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Well said Sir!
    mm Not really:

    1) no one was mentioning or even discussing the .22- that's an entirely different thread.
    2) no one was mentioning or even discussing any other calibers in particular, we were merely trying to help the OP understand his error re: the .45
    But, none of that ever keeps Skid from jumping right in and trying to get some commentary in on it- no matter how irrelevant to the topic.

    To the OP, and back on-topic- You've made a wise choice of defensive caliber- one with a long, and distinguished, track-record of combat successes.
    Practice with it frequently, hone the skills, and choose munitions for it with this in mind- be it Hollow-point, or FMJ/TMJ, try to go for the heavier weights- 230 grains, being the standard. While lesser weights sometimes work- 185, 200, etc. 230 has the most proven success rates.

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    Regular Member robert1970's Avatar
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    one of the places that i read that in was a book called street stoppers years ago.I really didnt belive,but was wondering about it.In my 45 iam using federal 230 grain hydra shock hollow points,and in my 357 i use hornady critical deffense 125 grain hollowpoint or remington golden saber 125 grain hollowpoint

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert1970 View Post
    one of the places that i read that in was a book called street stoppers years ago.I really didnt belive,but was wondering about it.In my 45 iam using federal 230 grain hydra shock hollow points,and in my 357 i use hornady critical deffense 125 grain hollowpoint or remington golden saber 125 grain hollowpoint
    The three books written by Marshall and Sanow (I have all three) were written some time ago and bullet technology has improved quite a bit since then. The Hydra Shok (not Hydra Shock) load is not the equal of their HST load. There are certainly others to consider for the .45ACP. Gold Dot, Golden Saber, and Winchester Ranger 'T' series are examples of these.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    I just spent time last might trying to explain to a woman in our group that no caliber is guarantee of anything. Of course this never would've happened if someone at a gun store hadn't told her that a .45 ACP would literally knock a person to the ground even if you hit them in the hand. SIGH.




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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    I just spent time last might trying to explain to a woman in our group that no caliber is guarantee of anything. Of course this never would've happened if someone at a gun store hadn't told her that a .45 ACP would literally knock a person to the ground even if you hit them in the hand. SIGH.




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    That and TV/movies will really go a long way in filling her head with garbage. A sad way to introduce someone to the world of firearms.

    Do you happen to know which gun store she was told this?
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    The three books written by Marshall and Sanow (I have all three) were written some time ago and bullet technology has improved quite a bit since then. The Hydra Shok (not Hydra Shock) load is not the equal of their HST load. There are certainly others to consider for the .45ACP. Gold Dot, Golden Saber, and Winchester Ranger 'T' series are examples of these.
    ^yes, but- in these choices there are bonded, and non-bonded rounds. try to stick to the bonded (Gold Dots, etc.) as they retain more of their weight, and suffer less from jacket separation.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    mm Not really:

    1) no one was mentioning or even discussing the .22- that's an entirely different thread.
    2) no one was mentioning or even discussing any other calibers in particular, we were merely trying to help the OP understand his error re: the .45
    But, none of that ever keeps Skid from jumping right in and trying to get some commentary in on it- no matter how irrelevant to the topic.

    To the OP, and back on-topic- You've made a wise choice of defensive caliber- one with a long, and distinguished, track-record of combat successes.
    Practice with it frequently, hone the skills, and choose munitions for it with this in mind- be it Hollow-point, or FMJ/TMJ, try to go for the heavier weights- 230 grains, being the standard. While lesser weights sometimes work- 185, 200, etc. 230 has the most proven success rates.
    So apparently you completely missed the point that not even a thermonuclear detonation launched from low orbit provides a guarantee of instaneous, one-shot success [/hyperbole]?

    Is the .45apc an "effective" caliber? Depends on 1) what you mean by "effective" and 2) where/what it hits. And the same goes for everything else, including the thermonuclear warhead referenced above. It's just a matter of degree by how much you can miss the "sweet spot" and still stop the threat with one shot.

    Why j4l introduced the issue of the .45 Long Colt, when the OP clearly indicated he was intertested in the .45acp, is beyond my ken unless he was intent on jumping right in and trying to get some commentary in on it- no matter how irrelevant to the topic.
    A solid torso or head shot to the vitals with a .45 is right up there as one of THE most effective fighting rounds. At or around = to the .357 magnum.
    A very very well-documented fact since at least 1873.
    To clarify for j4l why reference to the .50BMG and .22 calibers were made - a good hit with a .22 will beat a miss by a .45 (ap or LC) every day of the week. It's a way of discussing the relative importance of shot placement as opposed to mere caliber in use.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    That and TV/movies will really go a long way in filling her head with garbage. A sad way to introduce someone to the world of firearms.

    Do you happen to know which gun store she was told this?
    very true no caliber will knock something down like that. afew years ago I shot a small deer through the lungs with a 338 winchester magnum and it went another 25 yards before going down. what that lady was told was just pure b.s

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    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I'm still trying to figure out what efectivness is?

    As for the .45ACP, it's an outstanding defensive round and like all others, it has a time and a place.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    So apparently you completely missed the point that not even a thermonuclear detonation launched from low orbit provides a guarantee of instaneous, one-shot success [/hyperbole]?

    Is the .45apc an "effective" caliber? Depends on 1) what you mean by "effective" and 2) where/what it hits. And the same goes for everything else, including the thermonuclear warhead referenced above. It's just a matter of degree by how much you can miss the "sweet spot" and still stop the threat with one shot.

    Why j4l introduced the issue of the .45 Long Colt, when the OP clearly indicated he was intertested in the .45acp, is beyond my ken unless he was intent on jumping right in and trying to get some commentary in on it- no matter how irrelevant to the topic.


    To clarify for j4l why reference to the .50BMG and .22 calibers were made - a good hit with a .22 will beat a miss by a .45 (ap or LC) every day of the week. It's a way of discussing the relative importance of shot placement as opposed to mere caliber in use.

    stay safe.

    Never made any claims to that effect, at all. I merely pointed out that whatever he had read/been told was terribly mistaken.
    That the .45 is undeniably ONE OF the TOP fighting handgun rounds. Im not claiming any miracles, or magic-bullets, or one-shot anythings.
    Along with the .357 Mag, it ranks as one of the MOST EFFECTIVE of the choices available for a defensive side-arm.
    That said, it -like the .357- does indeed have a much higher record of 1-shot stops/kills vs. most of the other rounds /calibers out there.
    Debating this is like debating whether the sun will rise tommorow, or simply fade away. It's been one of the Gunfighter's Facts of Life since the time of the black-powder .45 Colt, and continues to be so to this day.

    As for the shot placement myth. It has some truth. But it isnt the end-all/be-all of gunfighting. To assume everyone is going to miss with their .45- or any caliber at hand, is simply silly. You can plink away at a BG all day long, scoring multiple headshots each time with a lot of different, lesser rounds-without ever penetrating the skull, or inflicting anything fatal at all. You have a MUCH BETTER CHANCE of penetrating that skull with a larger, heavier round than with the lesser types, though.
    Shot placement is all well and good, if the round fired makes it to something vital. If it only penetrates 3" and stops 6-8" before it reaches those vitals, shot placement didnt do jack squat for you, did it?
    But, of course anyone engaged in shooting should make every effort possible to place their shots well- no matter what round they are using.

    Try reading what is actually WRITTEN, rather than reading INTO what is actually written.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    ^yes, but- in these choices there are bonded, and non-bonded rounds. try to stick to the bonded (Gold Dots, etc.) as they retain more of their weight, and suffer less from jacket separation.
    Federal offers a tactical bonded load in the Law Enforcement series, which is also where the HST load is cataloged. The HST has a solid record of weight retention and jacket-to-core integrity from what I have read. This is an excellent choice for civilian use, as is the Gold Dot Law Enforcement series. The problem manufacturers face is trying to balance expansion with penetration and these two offerings appear to be among the best choices in controlled expansion which lends bullet performance to effective penetration.

    Of course, no handgun bullet is perfect so we are always best served to stay abreast of current technology and offerings from the top manufacturers. What is on top of the heap today could change in a few years.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Federal offers a tactical bonded load in the Law Enforcement series, which is also where the HST load is cataloged. The HST has a solid record of weight retention and jacket-to-core integrity from what I have read. This is an excellent choice for civilian use, as is the Gold Dot Law Enforcement series. The problem manufacturers face is trying to balance expansion with penetration and these two offerings appear to be among the best choices in controlled expansion which lends bullet performance to effective penetration.

    Of course, no handgun bullet is perfect so we are always best served to stay abreast of current technology and offerings from the top manufacturers. What is on top of the heap today could change in a few years.
    Indeed. Havent tried the Federal rounds as yet, so cannot speak to them -for myself-one way or the other. I recall when they'd initially came out though, that some rounds on the shelves were supposedly not the bonded versions.
    The Gold Dots -in 230 grains- I have tested extensively for myself.The results have been very consistent- penetrating to an avg. of 12" -15" and expanding fully each time, as well.







    As for my hardball- I prefer the TMJ's -for their weight retention. Having that tail end of the round sealed with the jacket makes a difference in both penetration, and weight/mass retention, as well. - The exposed core at the rear of most FMJ rounds tends to "squirt" out the rear, non-jacketed portion of the round, when it impacts solid objects.








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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Indeed. Havent tried the Federal rounds as yet, so cannot speak to them -for myself-one way or the other. I recall when they'd initially came out though, that some rounds on the shelves were supposedly not the bonded versions.
    The Gold Dots -in 230 grains- I have tested extensively for myself.The results have been very consistent- penetrating to an avg. of 12" -15" and expanding fully each time, as well.







    As for my hardball- I prefer the TMJ's -for their weight retention. Having that tail end of the round sealed with the jacket makes a difference in both penetration, and weight/mass retention, as well. - The exposed core at the rear of most FMJ rounds tends to "squirt" out the rear, non-jacketed portion of the round, when it impacts solid objects.








    Oh, and for the sake of argument- the .25 acp Gold Dots- they penetrated everything that my .45 has, consistently- on 2 occasions over -penetrating, and blowing right on out through my back-stop, and on down-range, never to be recovered. The recovered rounds didnt expand though. Except for wood- they get clogged and up and stop inside of 1" pine boards. But.. it's "just" a .25 acp..
    Last edited by j4l; 04-04-2012 at 04:52 PM.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I started carrying the Gold Dot LEO 124gr +P for my preferred 9mm load several months ago, but still do have HST rounds in both 124 and 147 gr (all +P) in my stash. For my .40S&W carry guns, I use 165gr HST unless I am using a short barreled gun (Glock 27), in which case I use the 155gr HST. For my .45 carry gun, I like the 230gr HST in +P or the Ranger 230gr Ranger SXT +P. I would love to get my hands on some .40S&W Gold Dot 165gr, #53970. Real hard to find this load.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    That and TV/movies will really go a long way in filling her head with garbage. A sad way to introduce someone to the world of firearms.

    Do you happen to know which gun store she was told this?
    I didn't ask at the time. If I recall correctly it wasn't someone who worked there but a patron trying to help the damsel in distress.

    I told her the guy watched too many movies.


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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    I didn't ask at the time. If I recall correctly it wasn't someone who worked there but a patron trying to help the damsel in distress.

    I told her the guy watched too many movies.


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    Does sound like it. Good thing you steered her away from that sort of nonsense.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Does sound like it. Good thing you steered her away from that sort of nonsense.
    Yea, I was in Gander Mountain in Greensboro the other day and one of the sales associates was saying to the same effect. I really don't know where they get these guys from.
    The M4...serving scum the laws of terminal ballistics at 2,900FPS

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