The 1911 .45 is the standard for combat pistols the world over. Whenever combat seasoned troops have a choice of sidearm, the almost always choose a 1911A1 or a variation. Personally, I'd take the opinion of those who rely on a gun repeatedly to save their lives.
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efectivness with the 45 acp
- Thread starter robert1970
- Start date
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
Just a humorous note. We have a lawyer on this forum who once commented that he didn't really care for a round where he had to calculate rainbow trajectory. Needless to say, he's a .357 mag man.
My son and myself have 4 carry guns, 3 1911's in different configurations of barrel length, 2 are .45 and one is .22, and a Judge which I carry while at home or out and about on my own property. The Judge with Federal .45 Long Colt ammo I shoot an 1.5in 5 shot group at 35ft. Remington ammo I shoot a 6in group at the same distance. I shoot a good group with the 1911 .45's and a not so good group with the 1911 .22. The Judge is just to heavy to carry all day but thats the one im most comfortable shooting and shoot the best. So thats the one I carry the most. My point is if you need to hit what your shooting at carry what you shoot the best. But I carry all of them from time to time, and make regular trips to the range and shoot all of them. At the range I can hit well with all of them after I shoot a clip or two thur them the group gets tighter but the Judge I hit well from frist shot to the last. If you need to disable someone or a bear ect. I want to do more than scare them. If your gun dont shoot well find one that does get good with it and stick to it weather it's a .22 or a .50 cal
getzmel
Regular Member
Exactly ^
And- "shot placement" "shot placement" etc. etc. over and over..
The point folks keep missing is simply this:
You can shoot Olympic-match-level groups in the perfect spot all day long, let's say. But, if you are doing so using rounds that arent likely to penetrate to hit whats IN that spot, or to inflict enough damage to whats IN that spot, if it does-somehow-manage to reach it, then all you've done is spray 16 rounds of inferior lead downrange.
Granted, the guy is likely to be hurting, and may even eventually bleed-out, but..really, folks? Are the physics, and actual street/battlefield results going back to at least 1873 that hard to grasp?
Might caliber X manage to sometimes penetrate to the same amount as caliber Y almost always does? Sure, but personally, I'll take almost always over might/sometimes, tyvm.
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I heard that some guy took 16 9mm and kept on chugging, so I got a .45
Then I head that someone took 16 .45's and kept on chugging, so I got a .50
Then I head that someone took 10 .50's and kept on chugging, so I bought a trenchcoat, rigged up a rifle sling and started carrying a 30/30
Then I head that my friend shot a deer 6 times with his 30/30 and had to track it for a mile, so I got a 30-06
Then I heard that some other guy shot a deer 4 times with the 30-06 and it just ran off, so I got a .50, got a bigger sling, rigged it up in my trenchcoat and started carrying that
BTW, the trenchcoat makes me look menacing! Till it gets to be 105f in the summer, now I just look like a sprinkler with all the sweat running down my face
But anyway, I was reading about how some guy in the army shot someone twice with a .50 and the guy didn't go down!
So now I'm looking for something a little bigger that I can shoulder mount to retract down the back of my trenchcoat...
any suggestions? Make sure that what you suggest is 100% guaranteed to one shot kill. I don't wanna be reading the weekly world news a month from now and find out someone lived through my edc!
</sarcasm>
Then I head that someone took 16 .45's and kept on chugging, so I got a .50
Then I head that someone took 10 .50's and kept on chugging, so I bought a trenchcoat, rigged up a rifle sling and started carrying a 30/30
Then I head that my friend shot a deer 6 times with his 30/30 and had to track it for a mile, so I got a 30-06
Then I heard that some other guy shot a deer 4 times with the 30-06 and it just ran off, so I got a .50, got a bigger sling, rigged it up in my trenchcoat and started carrying that
BTW, the trenchcoat makes me look menacing! Till it gets to be 105f in the summer, now I just look like a sprinkler with all the sweat running down my face
But anyway, I was reading about how some guy in the army shot someone twice with a .50 and the guy didn't go down!
So now I'm looking for something a little bigger that I can shoulder mount to retract down the back of my trenchcoat...
any suggestions? Make sure that what you suggest is 100% guaranteed to one shot kill. I don't wanna be reading the weekly world news a month from now and find out someone lived through my edc!
</sarcasm>
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This one is only about 8" long and real - it "kills" rocks.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/1129/Why-does-Mars-Curiosity-rover-have-a-laser-raygun
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PistolPackingMomma
Regular Member
I heard that some guy took 16 9mm and kept on chugging, so I got a .45
Then I head that someone took 16 .45's and kept on chugging, so I got a .50
Then I head that someone took 10 .50's and kept on chugging, so I bought a trenchcoat, rigged up a rifle sling and started carrying a 30/30
Then I head that my friend shot a deer 6 times with his 30/30 and had to track it for a mile, so I got a 30-06
Then I heard that some other guy shot a deer 4 times with the 30-06 and it just ran off, so I got a .50, got a bigger sling, rigged it up in my trenchcoat and started carrying that
BTW, the trenchcoat makes me look menacing! Till it gets to be 105f in the summer, now I just look like a sprinkler with all the sweat running down my face
But anyway, I was reading about how some guy in the army shot someone twice with a .50 and the guy didn't go down!
So now I'm looking for something a little bigger that I can shoulder mount to retract down the back of my trenchcoat...
any suggestions? Make sure that what you suggest is 100% guaranteed to one shot kill. I don't wanna be reading the weekly world news a month from now and find out someone lived through my edc!
</sarcasm>
Best caliber wars response ever!!! :monkey
My personal belief is this. you carry the biggest round you possible can carry effectively. If you are unable to control that firearm to dump 4 rounds or more into a preps chest cavity than you need to either learn to control it better or drop to a smaller round altogether.
SouthernBoy
Regular Member
This pretty much matches with what I have learned from folks who have been there and done that. To employ the most powerful handgun with which you can;
comfortably carry for extended periods (think daily EDC),
confidently and consistently deliver rounds to target,
affords quick followup fire.
If this happens to be a .45ACP then so be it. If it happens to be a 9mm, then that is the one to go with... and so on. The point is not everyone is going to be capable and effective everything out there. There are real physical limitations and if someone cannot do well with a .40S&W, a .357 Magnum or Sig, or a .45ACP, their choices are reduced to 9mm, .380ACP, and perhaps even less. It is true that one can be trained to shoot most anything, but some folks will just do better with one specific caliber and if that's the case, then they are better off training and using that one.
In the end, you're not going to know if you took the right decision until the day comes when you have to use it. And even then, you are only going to know whether or not it worked for that instant case... should you survive. If you happen to find yourself needing your gun and you use deadly force against someone, you will only know how well it worked against that individual at that particular point in time. This alone should tell you to employ the most powerful caliber/load you can use well since there are never going to be any guarantees in this business.
WhistlingJack
Regular Member
It is human nature to attempt to simply things as much as possible.
Terminal ballistics however is an extremely complex subject which is hamstrung in its ability to be scientifically tested due largely to the sheer number of variables which may enter into the scenario, and the inability to conduct regular tests on living human subjects for obvious reasons.
My personal approach has always been to use the most powerful round which I am capable of accurately controlling, similar to a few of the posts above mine.
The .45 ACP is one of the most battle-proven handgun rounds in common use today, but no handgun, and really no rifle for practical application can 100% assure an instant incapacitation or kill on a target.
Many praise subjects such as caliber size, hydrostatic shock, drops in blood pressure, et al.
None of these effects however can be counted on 100% of the time.
Many harp on shot-placement, over, and over, and over again. Military snipers are rare individuals and highly respected precisely because of the difficulty in what they do. One simply cannot know that they for certain will be able to place each and every shot they fire in the target, let alone in specific portions of the target, even when that target is up close and personal, even if there is no struggle going on for control of the weapon. We train to ensure we hit the target, but one cannot resonable say they will always hit exactly where they want to, every time.
All of these factors come into play, a round from a 5.7x28 through the heart is more deadly than a .45 which misses the heart and other major organs. But a 45'x larger size and larger wound channel means it is more likely to achieve wounding of such precious organs as the heart.
A combination of cartridge capability, shot placement, and firing discipline all come together along with many other variables in determing how a bad individual will be affected by that hot hunk of lead passing through them.
In relation to the OP's question, the .45 is a very effective round for personal defense, one of the best, but it is not, nor is any other gun a magic death ray which will put people down and keep them down simply with one shot, 100% of the time. With a .45 however you can have the confidence of carrying one of the most vaunted rounds for the purpose metioned, which stands above many other options assuming the shooter does his part.
Terminal ballistics however is an extremely complex subject which is hamstrung in its ability to be scientifically tested due largely to the sheer number of variables which may enter into the scenario, and the inability to conduct regular tests on living human subjects for obvious reasons.
My personal approach has always been to use the most powerful round which I am capable of accurately controlling, similar to a few of the posts above mine.
The .45 ACP is one of the most battle-proven handgun rounds in common use today, but no handgun, and really no rifle for practical application can 100% assure an instant incapacitation or kill on a target.
Many praise subjects such as caliber size, hydrostatic shock, drops in blood pressure, et al.
None of these effects however can be counted on 100% of the time.
Many harp on shot-placement, over, and over, and over again. Military snipers are rare individuals and highly respected precisely because of the difficulty in what they do. One simply cannot know that they for certain will be able to place each and every shot they fire in the target, let alone in specific portions of the target, even when that target is up close and personal, even if there is no struggle going on for control of the weapon. We train to ensure we hit the target, but one cannot resonable say they will always hit exactly where they want to, every time.
All of these factors come into play, a round from a 5.7x28 through the heart is more deadly than a .45 which misses the heart and other major organs. But a 45'x larger size and larger wound channel means it is more likely to achieve wounding of such precious organs as the heart.
A combination of cartridge capability, shot placement, and firing discipline all come together along with many other variables in determing how a bad individual will be affected by that hot hunk of lead passing through them.
In relation to the OP's question, the .45 is a very effective round for personal defense, one of the best, but it is not, nor is any other gun a magic death ray which will put people down and keep them down simply with one shot, 100% of the time. With a .45 however you can have the confidence of carrying one of the most vaunted rounds for the purpose metioned, which stands above many other options assuming the shooter does his part.
VW_Factor
Regular Member
I've heard numerous times that the .45 ACP will pick you up off the ground and knock you down when struck center mass...
Um.. no..
I think its silly that people can't understand the simply physics of, if your projectile is going to carry that sort of energy to target, you ARE GOING to feel that on your end when firing the projectile.
Firearms are not magical death ray knock down machines.
Michigander
Regular Member
For whatever it's worth, temporary cavity expansion/hydrostatic shock don't really occur with any conventional handgun round.
My understanding based on experience, testing and research is that this phenomenon begins at about 2,500 FPS, and the faster you can get than that, the better the odds at really noticing it.
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2+1=3/ Strike 3 ur Out !
***THEY*** Say, "Two in the Chest & One in the Head, Two knocks em' Down & One makes em' Dead."
Don't know just exactly who ***THEY*** are, but my interpretation of the issue at hand is this,,,
Spray n Pray! The idea being, if you throw enough lead in a given direction... your bound to hit something. To bad marksmanship doesn't mean much anymore... only large capacity magazines.
KEEP FIRING UNTIL THE THREAT ON YOUR LIFE IS ELIMINATED !
That's why WE practice, remember that practice makes perfect, especially with Speed Loaders for a Revolver are available for nearly every caliber on the market.
"The Shooters Log, The Myth of Handgun Stopping Power." >>>Link to Read More, :arrow:; http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=19467
A Snip From,*The Shooters Log*;
"This is the part where thousands of .45acp shooters smugly say, “That’s why I carry a .45, it puts ‘em down with just one shot.” I have seen this assertion many times on our Facebook page. Folks, you must hit something vital with any handgun bullet to quickly stop an assailant. A good friend of mine was in a shootout two years ago and was hit three times with .38 Special Speer Gold Dots before he even began to return fire. He scored two hits on the bad guy with .45acp Winchester SXT rounds (the ones that known as “Black Talons” back in the day) and the assailant ran off. The police followed a blood trail for eight hours before finding the bad guy hiding in a closet. Both men survived. My friend was the star witness at the bad guy’s trial, where they sentenced the bad guy to life in prison plus 30 years. The .45acp did save the day, but it did not physically stop the assailant. He simply ran away because someone was fighting back and his revolver was empty."
"People say, this is everything. Velocity is everything. Caliber is everything. Placement is everything. Permanent cavity is everything. Temporary cavity is everything. Look, nothing is everything, but everything is something."
- Massad Ayoob
***THEY*** Say, "Two in the Chest & One in the Head, Two knocks em' Down & One makes em' Dead."
Don't know just exactly who ***THEY*** are, but my interpretation of the issue at hand is this,,,
Spray n Pray! The idea being, if you throw enough lead in a given direction... your bound to hit something. To bad marksmanship doesn't mean much anymore... only large capacity magazines.
KEEP FIRING UNTIL THE THREAT ON YOUR LIFE IS ELIMINATED !
That's why WE practice, remember that practice makes perfect, especially with Speed Loaders for a Revolver are available for nearly every caliber on the market.
"The Shooters Log, The Myth of Handgun Stopping Power." >>>Link to Read More, :arrow:; http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=19467
A Snip From,*The Shooters Log*;
"This is the part where thousands of .45acp shooters smugly say, “That’s why I carry a .45, it puts ‘em down with just one shot.” I have seen this assertion many times on our Facebook page. Folks, you must hit something vital with any handgun bullet to quickly stop an assailant. A good friend of mine was in a shootout two years ago and was hit three times with .38 Special Speer Gold Dots before he even began to return fire. He scored two hits on the bad guy with .45acp Winchester SXT rounds (the ones that known as “Black Talons” back in the day) and the assailant ran off. The police followed a blood trail for eight hours before finding the bad guy hiding in a closet. Both men survived. My friend was the star witness at the bad guy’s trial, where they sentenced the bad guy to life in prison plus 30 years. The .45acp did save the day, but it did not physically stop the assailant. He simply ran away because someone was fighting back and his revolver was empty."
"People say, this is everything. Velocity is everything. Caliber is everything. Placement is everything. Permanent cavity is everything. Temporary cavity is everything. Look, nothing is everything, but everything is something."
- Massad Ayoob
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M
McX
Guest
i had a crappy turkey made .45 that wouldnt hit the broad side of a barn. when i full retire i plan to fix that with a nice American made .45. the thing that i loved was the .45 plus P ammo...bang bang verses boom boom. next one MUST be able to handle .45 plus P. totally bitchin!
davidmcbeth
Banned
A head shot is pretty good placement ... with a 380 thats a kill shot many times and most times is a shot that will stop someone. Even a 22 in the head is a pretty good stopper.
Carry the largest caliber gun you can accurately shoot in the circumstances or environment for which it would be used in ... a 45 is good without a doubt.
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CaptainHoneySmacks
Regular Member
Assuming your target is not wearing a bullet proof vest, then even a .22 can prove to be a very leathal round. A bullet, of any caliber, is capable of killing your target. The larger the caliber, the more wiggle room you have with the placement - but you still need good placement. A .45 ACP will allow you more error room, while a .22 needs spot on placement. Overall, you need a round you can have follow up shots comfortably with and can afford to practice often with. A .45 ACP does you no good if you can't afford to practice with it or if you are terrified to shoot it.