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Thread: Drawn on by Missouri State Patrolman

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    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
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    Drawn on by Missouri State Patrolman

    Had a shotgun pointed at me by a state patrolman today in Washington, Missouri for OC'ing.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    Had a shotgun pointed at me by a state patrolman today in Washington, Missouri for OC'ing.
    Is that it? Details? Recording? Anything for us to go on?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    Had a shotgun pointed at me by a state patrolman today in Washington, Missouri for OC'ing.
    . . .

    Space saved for comment when/if details are provided and story develops substance.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Just read in the Missouri sub-forum that he will not be posting anymore until he contacts a lawyer. Probably the best move he could make.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    It must be time for me to go to the dreamlands, I clicked on the thread thinking it said Mississippi State Patrolman, and was confused as to why one would do such a thing in Missouri....
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    Had a shotgun pointed at me by a state patrolman today in Washington, Missouri for OC'ing.
    What a moron. Did he feel threatened by a holstered handgun?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Just read in the Missouri sub-forum that he will not be posting anymore until he contacts a lawyer. Probably the best move he could make.
    +1 for the OP in doing this, but if anybody in Missouri are interested they can request the troopers report. Although me personally after reading too many reports know not to believe what is written by an officer trying to justify his actions.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member CrossBow33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcbess View Post
    Had a shotgun pointed at me by a state patrolman today in Washington, Missouri for OC'ing.
    Is it just me or does it seem that there's been a lot of these "encounters" in Missouri the last few years?

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    Without commenting.....No comment!
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    Can't wait for details!

    I OCed in Missouri for a couple years and never had a problem with any Missouri LEO (I stayed out of the the big shitties like St Louis KC etc) and especially found the MO Highway Patrol to be knowledgeable and professional, even had a breakfast conversation with a couple while OCing.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    +1 for the OP in doing this, but if anybody in Missouri are interested they can request the troopers report. Although me personally after reading too many reports know not to believe what is written by an officer trying to justify his actions.

    How about EVERYONE on OCDO requesting a copy of the report, or FOIA the radio traffic for this event...

    Just think, if every time an LEO harassed a lawful OCer--anywhere in the country--and within a few days they received THOUSANDS of FOIA requests--it might start making these LEAs think twice before letting their officers get away with this sort of thuggery.

    Not only would these request cause them all sorts of expenses, but it would let them know that there were THOUSANDS of people all over teh country who were watching them, and concerned with ensuring that LEOs operate within the bounds of the law.

    We need to stop acting like we are guaranteed a "win" on this issue, and start using some SERIOUSLY aggressive bureaucratic and administrative tactics--using the "system" against itself. Perhaps the occasional avalanche of paperwork might be a bit of a deterrent to these scoff-law LEAs...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member usmcbess's Avatar
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    Video

    Youtube search "opencarry shotgun incident" for the video. Also visit the missouri forum on OCDO to see me being demonized and caled names by traitors and or bigots.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    This is probably more of a rhetorical question than one in search of a detaied answer, but why did you get into a debate with the cops?

    I am one of the greatest for wanting to point out each and every right, law, rule, policy and procedure that someone (does not have to be LE) is violating, breaking, raping and otherwise molesting. But over a lifetime I have learned that situations like yours are not helped, and often hurt, by doing so?

    Tactically there is a lot to be said for providing the minimum information necessary (name, rank, serial number) and then being a broken record of asking LE if you are being detained, and if so being a broken record of saying you want to contact your attorney before answering any further questions. That, or when LE asks questions like "What are we expected to do when we get calls about a man with a gun?" tell them you expect them to check out the situation and now that they have seen you are presenting no threat to allow you to go on about your way. Getting into a debate with them, or going off-topic to discuss citizenship, rights, and case law just plays into their agenda and builds up in their minds that you are "argumentative" and "evasive", as well as possibly "resisting" their authority.

    Seriously, besides showing how much you know about the law (as opposed to LE?) how does debating with or lecturing the cops improve your situation? Yes, they need to learn what the law says and how to interact with a LAC in a manner that defuses, as opposed to escalates, a situation fraught with tension from before they make contact with you. But on the side of the road?

    I'm not raking you over any coals. I'm just trying to point out that getting sucked into their game puts you at a disadvantage. Refuse to play and they need to regroup and figure out a different strategy.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Question

    Why was your father involved?
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Regular Member zekester's Avatar
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    I was giving you the benifit of the doubt..

    Bess,

    You have been raked over the coals on this, on the Missouri Forum, mainly because you were asked not do anything disruptive during the negotiations of SB680.

    Although I respect what you do, this was a disappointment on many levels for me.

    1st) Because of this action, Washington tried to implement a OC ban, which is within their rights, luckily it failed.

    2nd) It is well known that the Rep in your juristiction is dead against OC. He has been waiting for a reason and support to kill SB680, which is why you were asked to curtail your actions until the process was complete. You chose to ingnore this, which of course is your right.

    3rd) The press was all over this in Washington, which did not give OC a good light and SB680 is now about to go down in flames.

    4th) I initally supported you in this discussion, because I felt that the "organization" should have informed everyone about the sensitivty of the legisilators and not single you out because they thought that you "bait" the LEO.

    5th) After seeing the video, it clear it was a bait and you failed miserably. Although the LEO were wrong, and you were well within your rights, your history proceeds you for baiting. You just did it at the least opportune time.
    GOD gave me rights!!!....The Constitutuion just confirms it!!

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    Regular Member Logan 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    Without commenting.....No comment!
    I'm gonna have to withhold judgement on that.
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    Regular Member derhammer's Avatar
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    Ridiculous. You have every right to get out of your car and walk laps up and down the highway if you please, with any gun you please. THE CONSTITUTION SAYS SO. I do hope you intend on pressing this in the courts as far as you can. Insanity like this must be crushed. Thank you for fighting in your own way for our right to bear arms, sir!

    -derhammer

  18. #18
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    Bess,

    You have been raked over the coals on this, on the Missouri Forum, mainly because you were asked not do anything disruptive during the negotiations of SB680.

    Although I respect what you do, this was a disappointment on many levels for me.

    1st) Because of this action, Washington tried to implement a OC ban, which is within their rights, luckily it failed.

    2nd) It is well known that the Rep in your juristiction is dead against OC. He has been waiting for a reason and support to kill SB680, which is why you were asked to curtail your actions until the process was complete. You chose to ingnore this, which of course is your right.

    3rd) The press was all over this in Washington, which did not give OC a good light and SB680 is now about to go down in flames.

    4th) I initally supported you in this discussion, because I felt that the "organization" should have informed everyone about the sensitivty of the legisilators and not single you out because they thought that you "bait" the LEO.

    5th) After seeing the video, it clear it was a bait and you failed miserably. Although the LEO were wrong, and you were well within your rights, your history proceeds you for baiting. You just did it at the least opportune time.
    So funny you would post this. So, because OC is up for discussion in the Legislature, this individual, and all individuals ought to stop OC'ing?

    If walking down the street OC'ing in a State where it's legal is 'baiting' then there are many of us on here that so-called Bait LEO's every day we walk out the door into society.

    No OC'r should be swayed by some anti-firearm political opportunist who is dead set against OC; it's not as if you're going to change their mind anyhow. If I were concerned about particular sensitivities of me walking around OC'ing, then I would cease to OC. If the Legislator has as exhibit A, the individual in the video, walking down the street, minding his own business, as some sort of justification for banning OC, well, then OC'rs in that State are sitting pretty good.

    Don't put the weight of your personal OC shortcomings on the individual who started this thread. If you want to p*ssy-foot around people who are sensitive to OC'ing, and navigate through political winds, go for it, just don't expect the rest of us to do it.

    Welcome to OC.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 05-15-2012 at 09:59 AM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    How about EVERYONE on OCDO requesting a copy of the report, or FOIA the radio traffic for this event...

    Just think, if every time an LEO harassed a lawful OCer--anywhere in the country--and within a few days they received THOUSANDS of FOIA requests--it might start making these LEAs think twice before letting their officers get away with this sort of thuggery.

    Not only would these request cause them all sorts of expenses, but it would let them know that there were THOUSANDS of people all over teh country who were watching them, and concerned with ensuring that LEOs operate within the bounds of the law.

    We need to stop acting like we are guaranteed a "win" on this issue, and start using some SERIOUSLY aggressive bureaucratic and administrative tactics--using the "system" against itself. Perhaps the occasional avalanche of paperwork might be a bit of a deterrent to these scoff-law LEAs...
    Some good points....I wonder how cooperative they'd be with out of state requests though?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Agree with Skid, you talked too much. You ended up giving up more than you needed to. Just be a broken record on 'why am I being detained'. In fact early on, the one LEO said 'you are not being detained' and you missed it and continued to talk. You should have said 'if I am not being detained, am I free to go?' and kept repeating that.

    Getting badge numbers and stuff while prob. good for activism purposes, didn't help you. They let you go in the end and I think would have done so much earlier if you'd said the same thing over and over (am/why am I being detained) and then asked for your lawyer. You gave them a lot of openings and they even asked pointless questions (like what kind of gun you had - where you also over-shared).

    Good luck and glad you ended it ok.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Thumbs down Are you serious?

    Again like everyone else is saying and I agree, best thing is for him not to post anything till he speaks with a lawyer, also "IF" it comes to light that he was within the law and was not posing a threat(meaning pointing the weapon at the cop or reaching for it) then the officer was way out of line and this guy should press charges against the officer for aggravated assault. But Im sure it would prob. be a long hard battle in court.
    "GUN CONTROL IS NOT CRIME CONTROL"

  22. #22
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Interesting video of your confrontation with three(?) LEAs. You were apparently attempting to prove a point, as were the officers. Yours was "OC is legal in Missouri", and theirs was "When we get MWAG calls the public expects us to respond, and we are obligated to investigate." The "introduction" to the video (videoing your walk along a busy highway, for no apparent reason) left me with the impression that you were hoping for an interaction with LE, which you got. The shotgun wielding HP trooper, was a bit over the top, but keep in mind that there have been 5 LEO's killed in MO this year.

    Your reluctance to provide the officers with your name and age was less than beneficial for you. What it did was prolong the encounter unnecessarily. (They didn't ask to see ID, which was good since there's no law requiring us to provide ID upon request, or to even carry ID on our person, although 99% of adults do have ID on us all the time.) The officers were respectful, and they would have been remiss in their duty had they not asked for your name and what you were doing. "John Doe, and I'm taking a walk while legally armed" probably would have satisfied their need to check wants and warrants. You are not responsible for others allowing themselves to become upset at the sight of a legally armed citizen, but the officers can always trot out that chickens**t "disturbing the peace" charge, and (in some states) "obstructing a police investigation". Their "city ordinance" doesn't trump 2A, but, should they decide to push the issue, it can make you a bit uncomfortable for awhile.

    All-in-all, I think (yes, I do that sometimes) you mostly did what was correct once the officers engaged you. On the other hand, I think you intentionally brought that engagement upon yourself, and could have shortened its duration significantly without the repeated "Am I being detained" and 2A mantras. Pax...
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  23. #23
    Regular Member FireStar M40's Avatar
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    Now That You Commented..

    Quote Originally Posted by zekester View Post
    Without commenting.....No comment!
    Because of your No comment, comment .. I have no other alternative but to Not comment on your comment!

    FireStar M40
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    they'll just shoot your butt instead.

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  24. #24
    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    Wow...officer Horne is a moron, but I think you may be as well.

    And it is clear you were baiting which IMO doesn't help the OC cause. Especially when the baiter presents themselves as poorly as seen on your video.

    This in no way is meant to justify the officers actions.

    Your daddy clearly wasn't a fan of your choice...that was pretty funny.
    Last edited by jdholmes; 05-16-2012 at 02:05 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    ) The officers were respectful, and they would have been remiss in their duty had they not asked for your name and what you were doing. "John Doe, and I'm taking a walk while legally armed" probably would have satisfied their need to check wants and warrants.
    Respectfully I would like to point out that a big problem with this type of thinking is that an OCing LAC SHOULD be stopped and checked for warrants with out any reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

    It seems like you are implying that OCing is, in itself, just-cause for this type of search and seizure activity. It may have been baiting (to me it is completely irrelevant) but a point SHOULD be made any time this happens that there is no just-cause for stopping an individual solely for OCing, any more than it would be just-cause to stop someone because they are wearing a red bandanna, or have gang tattoos, or any thing else that is not criminal.

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