Dangerous Oc'er

*1911_man* · Apr 7, 2012

A few days ago i was out shopping and doing errands when i stopped by wal mart to get some batteries for my camera when i came across a fellow open carrier. I didnt think anything of it initially, he looked about my age so i thought that was pretty cool to see. For anyone interested he was carrying an FN five seven in a serpa holster. Anyway, i was in the electronics trying to find the right batteries (on an off note, wal mart customer service SUCKS) when i saw him again with his friend, who was not carrying by the way. They were talking and several times i saw the one with the FN put his hand on his gun, leave it for a minute or two, and just kept doing that. It wasnt a relaxed lazy kind of way, it was a full on grip of the pistol. Started making me a little nervous. He wasnt to intimidating being a max of 5'2" and around 110 pounds, but anyone can go nuts at any time. One thing i thought was a little odd was that he was carrying a 1200$ gun, but had dirty and torn clothes? I try not to judge others, but that seemed a little suspicious to me. All in all nothing happened, he checked out when i did and everything was fine. Its just not alright to see someone, especially someone fairly young, to be fondling a firearm in public. Gives a bad rep for open carriers, and especially young open carriers.

ManInBlack · Apr 7, 2012

>meso.40< said:
anyone can go nuts at any time

Yup. Absolutely.

So what are you gonna do about it? :uhoh:

I agree with your main point that this dude was not exercising proper gun safety nor giving a good rep to the firearms community by gripping his weapon unnecessarily in public. However, I have come to realize that we're never going to figure out how to fix stupid/crazy/willfully ignorant/immoral, so why bother trying? I just try to avoid those types of people as much as possible. I certainly would never confront someone displaying that type of behavior, so may as well just ignore and evacuate...

*1911_man* · Apr 7, 2012

ManInBlack said:
Yup. Absolutely.

So what are you gonna do about it? :uhoh:

I agree with your main point that this dude was not exercising proper gun safety nor giving a good rep to the firearms community by gripping his weapon unnecessarily in public. However, I have come to realize that we're never going to figure out how to fix stupid/crazy/willfully ignorant/immoral, so why bother trying? I just try to avoid those types of people as much as possible. I certainly would never confront someone displaying that type of behavior, so may as well just ignore and evacuate...

Exactly why i didnt approach him. I did keep a close eye on him the 3 or 4 times he was around while i was there. I always thought placing your hand on your firearm was brandishing? I'm probably wrong about that, but it would make sense.

ManInBlack · Apr 7, 2012

>meso.40< said:
I always thought placing your hand on your firearm was brandishing?

bran·dish/ˈbrandiSH/

Verb:

Wave or flourish (something, esp. a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.

Arizona law doesn't provide a legal definition of brandishing, but it is clear that the subject's behavior would not be protected under the "defensive display" law. That doesn't mean, however, that it would (or would not) be chargeable under another statute...

13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
B. This section does not apply to a person who:
1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.
2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.
C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.
D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:
1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.
2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

PistolPackingMomma · Apr 7, 2012

Well, to me, it sounds like maybe he was working on a car or in the yard (hence the dirty clothes with nice gun) and made a trip to the store, or it could be that he spent his wardrobe money on the gun? :lol:

And, since was young, perhaps he was still new to OC, and was gripping his gun to make sure it was still there; not being aware of the 'elbow check' method?

I think the most important factor is his body language; was he looking around a lot, talking in a low voice, edgy, etc? If so then there may be more to what you noticed...

HankT · Apr 7, 2012

>meso.40< said:
A few days ago i was out shopping and doing errands when i stopped by wal mart to get some batteries for my camera when i came across a fellow open carrier. I didnt think anything of it initially, he looked about my age so i thought that was pretty cool to see. For anyone interested he was carrying an FN five seven in a serpa holster. Anyway, i was in the electronics trying to find the right batteries (on an off note, wal mart customer service SUCKS) when i saw him again with his friend, who was not carrying by the way. They were talking and several times i saw the one with the FN put his hand on his gun, leave it for a minute or two, and just kept doing that. It wasnt a relaxed lazy kind of way, it was a full on grip of the pistol. Started making me a little nervous. He wasnt to intimidating being a max of 5'2" and around 110 pounds, but anyone can go nuts at any time. One thing i thought was a little odd was that he was carrying a 1200$ gun, but had dirty and torn clothes? I try not to judge others, but that seemed a little suspicious to me. All in all nothing happened, he checked out when i did and everything was fine. Its just not alright to see someone, especially someone fairly young, to be fondling a firearm in public. Gives a bad rep for open carriers, and especially young open carriers.

Goof with a gun.

He's one of us, but I can't think of any excuses to make for him.

LoneEchoWolf · Apr 7, 2012

As a new young OC'er i can somewhat relate to the dangerous person, the nervousness of your first times, New the the whole entire situation he could have Cotton a bit nervous and put his hand there not even thinking about it but as you stated you saw him do it quite a few times, if your new to OC you should do your homework, know your rights and what is tolerated and what is not, and if you cant, you fall back on logic, logically your drawing more attention to yourself by being quiet, but thats coming from a very outspoken, happy person who is always happy to wave and say hello to complete strangers, which some people are not, cant hold him being quiet against him but he should learn to speak up a bit more now that hes a Representative of all of us OCer's, secondly him basically groping his handgun isn't tolerated anywhere, you don't see a normal LEO walking around holding his handgun as if hes going to draw at any moment, that makes you a bigger target by showing that your nervous and unsure about how to handle the situation around you. basically the OCer should get a account on this site and do his homework i don't want to make any one of us look bad and he should feel the same way. just thought id add my thoughts to the story, trying to be more active in the forums. thanks for your time!

~Wolf~

*1911_man* · Apr 7, 2012

Im not sure what his deal was, did look a little sketchy to me, kinda trying to discretely look around as to try and not be noticed, but again im not him so couldnt say what was going through his mind. Personally i think you shouldnt be touching your firearm, look as clean and and well groomed as possible while carrying, if nothing else than to give people the sense that you are a stable person. Just my opinion anyway. I didnt feel like he was a very safe person. Maybe would have been different if he had a smile instead of a not very happy looking face...

LoneEchoWolf · Apr 7, 2012

i fully agree with everything said if you look clean and are stable and relaxed, everyone around you is also more relaxed. and a smile is the biggest and easiest way to put someone at ease. i also agree you never for any reason touch your weapon other than if you actually need your weapon or have to adjust it, just standing up or whatnot but even then you move the holster you don't grip the handle as if your going to draw. but as you said who knows whats going through the guys mind, just wish people would think its giving us all a bad name when other people see someone acting like that. thanks for the story for sure always nice to see a safe OCer calling out a unsafe one, and hopefully they have a account and see this and make them think about how they are acting. Thanks again and as always Stay safe!

~Wolf~

azcdlfred · Apr 9, 2012

The defensive display law only allows touching your gun in response to a threat.

Touching one's gun, in a non self-defense situation, could be perceived as a threat or intimidation (or worse) and reullt in a 9-1-1 call from an indimidated citizen.

Fred

ManInBlack · Apr 9, 2012

azcdlfred said:
Touching one's gun, in a non self-defense situation, could be perceived as a threat or intimidation (or worse).

Fred

"Could be"

Any statute or cite in which the mere touching of one's gun resulted in an arrest and/or charge?

Jack House · Apr 9, 2012

PistolPackingMomma said:
Well, to me, it sounds like maybe he was working on a car or in the yard (hence the dirty clothes with nice gun) and made a trip to the store, or it could be that he spent his wardrobe money on the gun? :lol:

And, since was young, perhaps he was still new to OC, and was gripping his gun to make sure it was still there; not being aware of the 'elbow check' method?

I think the most important factor is his body language; was he looking around a lot, talking in a low voice, edgy, etc? If so then there may be more to what you noticed...

This I don't really see a huge issue with his behavior without knowing what his body language says. It's unfortunate that people that people tend to be so jumpy around guns. Not saying you were, just talking about in general. If I had seen that, I really wouldn't have been worried too much. Then again, I tend to not worry too much till things blow up.

Everyone always thinks it's a flaw, I think it has done me well over the years.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

PistolPackingMomma · Apr 9, 2012

Jack House said:
Then again, I tend to not worry too much till things blow up.

Everyone always thinks it's a flaw, I think it has done me well over the years.

You probably have less ulcers than the rest of the general population :lol:

*1911_man* · Apr 9, 2012

Jack House said:
This I don't really see a huge issue with his behavior without knowing what his body language says. It's unfortunate that people that people tend to be so jumpy around guns. Not saying you were, just talking about in general. If I had seen that, I really wouldn't have been worried too much. Then again, I tend to not worry too much till things blow up.

Everyone always thinks it's a flaw, I think it has done me well over the years.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

I see people packing almost every day, most of them i end up, one way or another, being in a conversation with. But this dude wasnt the same. I wasnt about to call 911 on him, but i definitely thought it would be a good idea to kind of keep an eye on him as much as possible. His hand on his gun was what alerted me though, he had a serpa with a paddle, so i seriously doubt he was needing to adjust it.

azcdlfred · Apr 10, 2012

ManInBlack said:
"Could be" Any statute or cite in which the mere touching of one's gun resulted in an arrest and/or charge?

Threat and Intimidation are broadly defined in ARS 13-1202 .

And "Assault" is broadly defined in ARS 13-1203 .

Keep in mind that a gun is considered a "deadly weapon" (ARS 13-105) and that an assault is "placing another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury." If I saw someone grabbing their holstered gun in public, I would be apphrensive and feel threatened.

It was those loose definitions, without any exception for defensive display of a firearm, that led us (AzCDL) to get the defensive display law introduced.

Fred

Dangerous Oc'er

1911_man

Regular Member

ManInBlack

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1911_man

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ManInBlack

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PistolPackingMomma

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HankT

State Researcher

LoneEchoWolf

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1911_man

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LoneEchoWolf

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azcdlfred

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ManInBlack

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Jack House

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PistolPackingMomma

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1911_man

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azcdlfred

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