Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37

Thread: Since When...

  1. #1
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Lexington, Ky
    Posts
    1,107

    Since When...

    Went to a lil hole in the wall gun shop a little while ago, found it while driving long US60. Pass by there more than a few times, and never really noticed it. Stopped by, went in, albeit not OC'ing while doing so. Figured I'd give it a lil look around, get some of their prices, and see what is up for sale.

    Not all that expensive, nor that much of a selection. The interior is about as big as my living room, and kitchen. Had a couple AR's, hunting Rifles, and some Pistols. But plenty of ammo. Which I may say is cheaper and of better veriaty than walmart, or Buds in Lexington.

    Noticed he had a cheap price on some 40SW Hollow-points. Told the guy, who apparently owned the place, that I'd like to buy a couple boxes of the hollow-points. Looked me over, and said, "I'm not supposed to sell them 'less your a Cop, Son. No Badge, no sell on those."

    When I asked him why he couldn't sell them, and what law there was that told him he couldn't sell hollow-points to civilians, he just said the Sheriff stopped by, and told him not to sell hollow-points to anyone without a badge, because their known as "cop killers".

    The guy was very nice, and friendly, and we ended up having a little conversation about some of his wares, but I didn't press the former topic on him; Figured why would I make drama with a guy who is "just following orders", He wants to keep in business, and I doubt he would want the Sheriff to make it hard on him. Ended up buying some FMJ's, and target rounds.

    So, my question is, since when can a County Sheriff order/tell a place that sells ammo, to not sell hollow-points; and, what law gives said sheriff that authority?

    I usually don't buy HP's because their usually out of my price range for ammo, and as far as I know, it's still legal to own, and use them.

    Clarification?

    As a side note, Location of the place is in Montgomery County, along the outskirts of Mt. Sterling.
    Last edited by DrakeZ07; 04-07-2012 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Fixed Spelling
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
    Trained SKYWARN spotter, and veteran Storm Chaser.
    =^.^= ~<3~ =^.^=
    Beware the Pink Camo clad gay redneck.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    222
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Went to a lil hole in the wall gun shop a little while ago, found it while driving long US60. Pass by there more than a few times, and never really noticed it. Stopped by, went in, albeit not OC'ing while doing so. Figured I'd give it a lil look around, get some of their prices, and see what is up for sale.

    Not all that expensive, nor that much of a selection. The interior is about as big as my living room, and kitchen. Had a couple AR's, hunting Rifles, and some Pistols. But plenty of ammo. Which I may say is cheaper and of better veriaty than walmart, or Buds in Lexington.

    Noticed he had a cheap price on some 40SW Hollow-points. Told the guy, who apparently owned the place, that I'd like to buy a couple boxes of the hollow-points. Looked me over, and said, "I'm not supposed to sell them 'less your a Cop, Son. No Badge, no sell on those."

    When I asked him why he couldn't sell them, and what law there was that told him he couldn't sell hollow-points to civilians, he just said the Sheriff stopped by, and told him not to sell hollow-points to anyone without a badge, because their known as "cop killers".

    The guy was very nice, and friendly, and we ended up having a little conversation about some of his wares, but I didn't press the former topic on him; Figured why would I make drama with a guy who is "just following orders", He wants to keep in business, and I doubt he would want the Sheriff to make it hard on him. Ended up buying some FMJ's, and target rounds.

    So, my question is, since when can a County Sheriff order/tell a place that sells ammo, to not sell hollow-points; and, what law gives said sheriff that authority?

    I usually don't buy HP's because their usually out of my price range for ammo, and as far as I know, it's still legal to own, and use them.

    Clarification?

    As a side note, Location of the place is in Montgomery County, along the outskirts of Mt. Sterling.
    He cant, there isnt a state law and if there is a local ordinance, its illegal.

  3. #3
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    1,240
    What was the name of the place, Drake?
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

  4. #4
    Regular Member KYKevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Owensboro, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    328
    I was told the other day I could not buy a NEW handgun with night sights unless I was a leo. I just left.
    Kentucky Open Carry Group
    http://opencarry.niceboards.org/

    We all speak of liberty and freedom like we are the only ones that know the truth and the right path. But if we expect everyone to accept and follow our path and to accept our truth and want to force it upon them then that is no longer liberty or freedom. It is slavery. I believe in liberty for all. Regardless of their political views, religion, race, sex, etc.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917
    This law: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/527-00/080.pdf specifies that it is a felony to use "restricted" ammo in the commission of a crime. Basically, it just allows them to tack on another charge. Definitions of restricted ammo can be found here: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/060.PDF

    I think these are poorly worded. In the latter link, I think hollow points are what was described as "flanged" ammo. So it is my understanding that it is not against the law to buy or sell hollow points but to use them in the act of a crime. So don't crime and you'll be ok.

  6. #6
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Lexington, Ky
    Posts
    1,107
    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    What was the name of the place, Drake?
    Bensons, vinsons or some name like that, next time I'm out and about, I'll drive by and write down the name of it. Understandably or not, I was more interested in the Panther DPMS he had on the shelf for a nice price after some poking around for a trading price or Vollie discount, than the actual name of the place.

    Quote Originally Posted by KYKevin View Post
    I was told the other day I could not buy a NEW handgun with night sights unless I was a leo. I just left.
    I've had that happen before at a pawn shop in Morehead. I usually go to Buds in Lexington to buy night optics, and such, and they haven't once asked if I was a LEO or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    This law: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/527-00/080.pdf specifies that it is a felony to use "restricted" ammo in the commission of a crime. Basically, it just allows them to tack on another charge. Definitions of restricted ammo can be found here: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/060.PDF

    I think these are poorly worded. In the latter link, I think hollow points are what was described as "flanged" ammo. So it is my understanding that it is not against the law to buy or sell hollow points but to use them in the act of a crime. So don't crime and you'll be ok.
    So HP is flanged? I think the latter KRS means its okay to use it in a justified, as in Self-Defense scenario, but what I'm not understanding is, whether or not either of those two KRS's make HP's legal, or illegal.
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
    Trained SKYWARN spotter, and veteran Storm Chaser.
    =^.^= ~<3~ =^.^=
    Beware the Pink Camo clad gay redneck.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Central KY
    Posts
    917
    "So HP is flanged? I think the latter KRS means its okay to use it in a justified, as in Self-Defense scenario, but what I'm not understanding is, whether or not either of those two KRS's make HP's legal, or illegal."


    1)I would agree--I believe the KRS allows for their use in self-defense.

    2)Again, it is my belief that hollow points are flanged ammunition that is decided to expand upon impact. I believe that if you committed a crime using the ammo, that it would be another charge they would tack on.

    3)Regarding the those two KRS's--I don't think there was anything restricting the sales, purchase, or possession of hollow points--just the use of them in a crime. You can buy hollow points all over the state--except for that gun store, I suppose. I think this is yet another example of a sheriff proving that LEO's are lay people when it comes to interpretation or understanding the law.

  8. #8
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    1,240
    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    This law: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/527-00/080.pdf specifies that it is a felony to use "restricted" ammo in the commission of a crime. Basically, it just allows them to tack on another charge. Definitions of restricted ammo can be found here: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/060.PDF

    I think these are poorly worded. In the latter link, I think hollow points are what was described as "flanged" ammo. So it is my understanding that it is not against the law to buy or sell hollow points but to use them in the act of a crime. So don't crime and you'll be ok.
    I'll toss my hat into this one. *LOL* First off, I'll preface this by saying that this is my understanding, I do not have a "source" readily available.

    As I understand it, illegal ammo would be armour-piercing and explosive only.
    Last edited by neuroblades; 04-08-2012 at 04:05 PM.
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

  9. #9
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    It would be nice to know the name of this business so we could get the name of the sherrif that is violating state law by mandating a firearm retailer not sale legal products. He has no authority to prohibit anyone from selling hollowpoints, and if he was not a moron he would realize a bullet will kill you regardless of how it is made, the hollow point will simply stop inside the body, and not go through and through and kill some innocent man, woman, or child behind the bad guy. I would really like to speak with this sherrif. What county was you in?
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  10. #10
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Lexington, Ky
    Posts
    1,107
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    It would be nice to know the name of this business so we could get the name of the sherrif that is violating state law by mandating a firearm retailer not sale legal products. He has no authority to prohibit anyone from selling hollowpoints, and if he was not a moron he would realize a bullet will kill you regardless of how it is made, the hollow point will simply stop inside the body, and not go through and through and kill some innocent man, woman, or child behind the bad guy. I would really like to speak with this sherrif. What county was you in?
    Montgomery County.

    I went into my mothers workplace at the clinic, one of her friends who works with her is the wife of the Deputy Sheriff of Montgomery Co; I asked her if she could ask her husband about the Sheriff telling people to not sell hollow-Points, or if there is a city/county ordinance that makes HP's illegal. She said she'd ask her husband, and pass the answer off to my mother, and back to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    He can tell anybody to do anything he wants. You and I can, too. If the person he tells is stupid enough or scared enough to do it, he loses business and soon will close his store. Other, smarter merchants will ignore that kind of advice and get more of that business. Darwinism at work. Being stupid is often very expensive. Maybe the Sheriff has a bother-in-law who sells hollowpoints.
    I -would- say there should be a law to prevent a sheriff/LEO from using intimidation, and misinformation... But then again, it's pointless to protect the less-than-intelligent, right? The shop owner had some nice stuff, for a good price, and seemed pretty knowledgeable on pistols, giving a good pro vs con on the Sig and Glock he had, and recommending the Rock Island 1911 over the former two brands. But back on topic, I know the Bath County Sheriff's Brother runs a gun shop in Owingsville, where the old NAPA parts store used to be. But I haven't came across anyone in Bath Co refusing to sell a specific type of ammo. Even the BP station sells cheap ammo.

    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    This statute was passed back in the late 1990's when there was national furor over "Back Talon" ammunition. Black Talon ammo would kill anything that got within 30 feet of it. It was especially deadly to police officers and this ammo was manufactured and sold by people that hated cops and wanted everyone of them dead. Winchester eventually changed the name of this terrible invention and all the problems went away. This same ammo is still on the market under the "Ranger" name. Not all Ranger ammo is like "Black Talon" but some is. I think it is called Ranger T. I think everything would have been alright if they had named it "White Talon". Black Talon ammo was one of the first "high performance" hollowpoint ammos on the market. Its jacket would split open like a flower petal and was said to spin and cut like a saw. I think this is the type of ammo that is refered to as "flanged ammunition" in the statute. The statute is very poorly written and probably unenforceable since nobody knows what "flanged ammo" is. Years ago "flanged ammo" meant a rimless case with a narrow thickened "band" around the bottom just forward of the extraction groove. These "flanges" were put in place on the early Magnum rifle cartridges that were designed for big game hunting. Rimmed cartridges were becoming obsolete because the rims would block the next round in a magazine and prevented the use of staggered mags. As repeating weapons became more and more available rimless case became more popular. The purpose of the "flange" was to strengthen the base of these new more powerful cartridges and also to allow them to be used in double rifles. Rimless cartridges function well in bolt action rifles, but hunters of dangerous game did not want to be working a bolt or clearing a jamb with a wounded tiger bearing down on them, so doubles were still popular for that type of hunting and these hunters wanted to use the new powerful ammo. Without a rim the cartridge would fall down into the chamber of a double, like a 410 would do in a 12 guage double, so a "flange" was put around the base of the cartridge to prevent that from happening. Some example of flanged ammo is .375 Nitro Express, .333 Flanged Nitro Express and .375 Weatherby Magnum. In today's gun world this type of cartridge is called "belted". The previous usage causes confusion for us old folks. Flanged ammo is a meaningless term in my opinion, nobody knows what it means and everybody says they do. The following is copied from the SAMMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) website.

    • Among the two types of handgun cartridges, there are further characteristics that set apart different configurations. Centerfire cartridges can also have rims; however, such a rim plays no part in the cartridge ignition, as it does in a rimfire cartridge.

      SAAMI defines a rimless centerfire cartridge as one with a case head that is "of the same diameter as the body and having a groove turned forward of the head to provide the extraction surface." A rimmed cartridge may be either rimfire or centerfire; if centerfire, the cartridge has "a rimmed or flanged head that is larger in diameter than the body of the case." A semi-rimmed centerfire cartridge has "a case head only slightly larger in diameter than the case body and an extractor groove just forward of the head," according to SAAMI.

      The rims of rimmed centerfire cartridges have a stronger construction than their rimfire cartridge counterparts.
    • There is a picture of a .375 Weatherby Magnum cartridge HERE. The flange is very visible at the base of the center cartridge. The controversy over this subject has gone on for years. The real problem is that the definition given in the statutes could just as easily fit a soft lead flat point bullet like a .40 S&W or .357 mag. It doesn't say a thing about a hollow point or anything about the point of the bullet.




    Edit: My self defense weapons are loaded with hollowpoint ammo every day. I don't plan on committing any felonies, but if I do, this statute will be the least of my worries and the statute says nothing about selling any kind of ammo. I find no shortage of places that sell hollowpoints.
    Wow, Gutshot, you have effectively blown my mind, xD In a good way, I think. Honestly though, I still don't exactly know what "flanged" is, it's confusing to me, maybe one day one of you all can take a round and show me where the flange is, so I can be less Ammo illiterate.

    For me, its not exactly that there are a shortage of places that sell HP's, moreso its that the places I do find that sell them, do so at an ungodly expensive price. But, should I not use the flat point bullets because of the poorly written statue? My Revolver, and both Hi-points, have rounds with a flat nose on it, but are copper color, so I suppose that counts, right? Reason for asking that last bit is, Would really rather not have an over-zealous LEO look at my extra mag pouch, see the flat nose, and try to arrest me for violating that statue.
    Last edited by DrakeZ07; 04-08-2012 at 05:13 AM.
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
    Trained SKYWARN spotter, and veteran Storm Chaser.
    =^.^= ~<3~ =^.^=
    Beware the Pink Camo clad gay redneck.

  11. #11
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    But, should I not use the flat point bullets because of the poorly written statue? My Revolver, and both Hi-points, have rounds with a flat nose on it, but are copper color, so I suppose that counts, right? Reason for asking that last bit is, Would really rather not have an over-zealous LEO look at my extra mag pouch, see the flat nose, and try to arrest me for violating that statue.
    The statute that is being referred to is "Using restricted ammunition during the commission of a crime--Exceptions"

    If I was a guessing man (I am) I would guess that this section only applies to you if you have committed a FELONY while in possession of a firearm containing AP or "flanged"" ammunition.

    Also, I don't think that flat nosed rounds would be considered AP or flanged.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Lexington, Ky
    Posts
    1,107
    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    The statute that is being referred to is "Using restricted ammunition during the commission of a crime--Exceptions"

    If I was a guessing man (I am) I would guess that this section only applies to you if you have committed a FELONY while in possession of a firearm containing AP or "flanged"" ammunition.

    Also, I don't think that flat nosed rounds would be considered AP or flanged.
    I understand it in the commission of a crime, I just meant it as, if your not doing anything illegal, just OC'ing,and a cop see's the flat nose, and decided to take the context of the law to mean he can harass and/or ticket/arrest you for having what he might consider "restricted ammo" in the broadest of terms.

    I know I'm over thinking it, but better to have things defined, and clear cut for if ever said situation was to happen.
    I'm a proud openly gay open carrier~
    Trained SKYWARN spotter, and veteran Storm Chaser.
    =^.^= ~<3~ =^.^=
    Beware the Pink Camo clad gay redneck.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Jordan
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    It would be nice to know the name of this business so we could get the name of the sherrif that is violating state law by mandating a firearm retailer not sale legal products. He has no authority to prohibit anyone from selling hollowpoints, and if he was not a moron he would realize a bullet will kill you regardless of how it is made, the hollow point will simply stop inside the body, and not go through and through and kill some innocent man, woman, or child behind the bad guy. I would really like to speak with this sherrif. What county was you in?
    I do not think we have enough info to assume the Sheriff is violating the law. Maybe the owner and him are friends and he does it cause he was asked by a friend. Even though the sheriff is completely misguided, I am not sure we have crossed the illegal line.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07
    the Sheriff stopped by, and told him not to sell hollow-points to anyone without a badge, because they're known as "cop killers".

    So when police departments issue them to their employees, & those employees use them against citizens, would they be called "citizen-killers"?
    Idiot. (The Sheriff, & anyone who uses the same stupid argument.)

    I usually don't buy HP's because they're usually out of my price range for ammo
    They're not all that much more expensive, esp. since you'll probably only use them once a year.
    I try to buy new self-defense ammo once a year, then use the old stuff at the range. It'd probably be good for longer than that, but with it being exposed to heat, humidity, etc., I'd rather buy fresh.
    Unless you get a massively good deal, don't use HP for target/practice ammo.
    And don't use target ammo for SD.
    HP is safer because if it hits the person, it'll probably stay there. If it hits something else solid, it'll probably flatten & stop quickly. Target ammo would be more likely to go through a person or wall or car.

    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy
    This law: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/527-00/080.pdf specifies that it is a felony to use "restricted" ammo in the commission of a crime. Basically, it just allows them to tack on another charge. Definitions of restricted ammo can be found here: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/060.PDF

    They consider brass & bronze to be armor-piercing??? Those are barely harder than copper.
    Speaking of which, the restriction is on beryllium copper, which is a harder alloy.

    ETA: brief wiki search...
    copper has a hardness of 3, beryllium of 5.5
    steel is 4 - 4.5
    hardened steel & tungsten (also on the banned list) is 7.5 - 8
    Last edited by MKEgal; 04-08-2012 at 12:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  15. #15
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The High Plains of Wyoming
    Posts
    1,030
    OK, the thing with the Black Talon; first it was marketing, the loaded round had a nickled case and the bullet was plated black, I think it was a handsome looking round, libs called it "evil" and "sinister" looking.

    Second, the way the jacket was folded into the hollow point caused a very sharp "talon" that pointed forward on the jacket pedals when the bullet mushroomed...

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...7BB8DF&first=0

    I have seem high speed video of a BT going through ballistic gelatin, it looks like there is rifling being cut into the wound cavity by those talons. Arteries are tough and a regular bullet might just push one aside unless hit directly, those talons would likely open it up for a good bleed. Trauma surgeons were crying about the possibility of getting a glove cut during surgery to remove a Black Talon and libs were saying about the "inhumane" wounds caused by it. When first reintroduce I believe Winchester called it the SXT (said to stand for Same eXact Thing) not sure of when it started being called Ranger T.

    The lib press started calling them "Cop Killers", not because any offecer had ever been shot with one but because earlier they had succeeded in getting the KTW round outlawed using that term. The KTW was a Teflon coated bullet originally designed penetrate hard barriers like windshields and later found that the friction reducing properties of Teflon allowed it to go through soft body armor.

    Very few people outside of law enforcement and hard core shooters knew about the round, and LEO had used it to drop hard core criminals who were starting to wear body armor of their own (would have been nice if N. Hollywood cops had had KTWs, but they are illegal). Law enforcement on all levels tried to talk NBC out of running a story on the ammo because it not only exposed the existence of this ammo, but also highlighted the fact LEO were wearing body armor (and in fact LEO started taking more head shots) but NBC had a juicy story, dubbed the KTW the "COP KILLER" and ran the story.

    So now anything the lib media wants to ban in the firearm/ammo realm gets tagged "COP KILLER".

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Olive Hill, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OK, the thing with the Black Talon; first it was marketing, the loaded round had a nickled case and the bullet was plated black, I think it was a handsome looking round, libs called it "evil" and "sinister" looking.

    Second, the way the jacket was folded into the hollow point caused a very sharp "talon" that pointed forward on the jacket pedals when the bullet mushroomed...

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...7BB8DF&first=0

    I have seem high speed video of a BT going through ballistic gelatin, it looks like there is rifling being cut into the wound cavity by those talons. Arteries are tough and a regular bullet might just push one aside unless hit directly, those talons would likely open it up for a good bleed. Trauma surgeons were crying about the possibility of getting a glove cut during surgery to remove a Black Talon and libs were saying about the "inhumane" wounds caused by it. When first reintroduce I believe Winchester called it the SXT (said to stand for Same eXact Thing) not sure of when it started being called Ranger T.

    The lib press started calling them "Cop Killers", not because any offecer had ever been shot with one but because earlier they had succeeded in getting the KTW round outlawed using that term. The KTW was a Teflon coated bullet originally designed penetrate hard barriers like windshields and later found that the friction reducing properties of Teflon allowed it to go through soft body armor.

    Very few people outside of law enforcement and hard core shooters knew about the round, and LEO had used it to drop hard core criminals who were starting to wear body armor of their own (would have been nice if N. Hollywood cops had had KTWs, but they are illegal). Law enforcement on all levels tried to talk NBC out of running a story on the ammo because it not only exposed the existence of this ammo, but also highlighted the fact LEO were wearing body armor (and in fact LEO started taking more head shots) but NBC had a juicy story, dubbed the KTW the "COP KILLER" and ran the story.

    So now anything the lib media wants to ban in the firearm/ammo realm gets tagged "COP KILLER".

    I had a Winchester representative tell me the same thing about the SXT ammo. I have to say I got a good laugh out of it.

    I looked at a Black Talon that was removed from a fellow at autopsy. It didn't look any different from any other HP bullet I have seen removed from a body.

    Additionally, I was in a trial in Bell County, Ky. where the firearms examiner was asked to testify that the defendent used "flanged" ammo, i.e. Black Talon's. He refused becaused the word "flanged" had a different meaning, as Gutshot has already explained. Prosecuting attorney was not happy, but the firearms examiner held his ground and never testified about the "flanged" ammo.

  17. #17
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    1,240

    Visual of Black Talon Rounds

    The photos here are of those Winchester Black Talon rounds & an individual Black Talon round for better visual ID.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	800px-Winchester_Black_Talon_10mm.jpg 
Views:	96 
Size:	82.7 KB 
ID:	8296   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Black Talon round.jpg 
Views:	110 
Size:	66.5 KB 
ID:	8297  
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

  18. #18
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    1,240
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    It would be nice to know the name of this business so we could get the name of the sherrif that is violating state law by mandating a firearm retailer not sale legal products. He has no authority to prohibit anyone from selling hollowpoints, and if he was not a moron he would realize a bullet will kill you regardless of how it is made, the hollow point will simply stop inside the body, and not go through and through and kill some innocent man, woman, or child behind the bad guy. I would really like to speak with this sherrif. What county was you in?
    You asked and you receive:

    Sheriff of Montgomery Country

    Fred Shortridge
    One Court Street
    Mt. Sterling, KY 40353
    (859) 498-8704 Office
    (859) 498-8694 Fax
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

  19. #19
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    The photos here are of those Winchester Black Talon rounds & an individual Black Talon round for better visual ID.
    To us shooters this round doesn't look particularly sinister. Also, I don't think this look particularly "handsome".
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  20. #20
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    862
    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OK, the thing with the Black Talon; first it was marketing, the loaded round had a nickled case and the bullet was plated black, I think it was a handsome looking round, libs called it "evil" and "sinister" looking.

    Second, the way the jacket was folded into the hollow point caused a very sharp "talon" that pointed forward on the jacket pedals when the bullet mushroomed...

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...7BB8DF&first=0

    I have seem high speed video of a BT going through ballistic gelatin, it looks like there is rifling being cut into the wound cavity by those talons. Arteries are tough and a regular bullet might just push one aside unless hit directly, those talons would likely open it up for a good bleed. Trauma surgeons were crying about the possibility of getting a glove cut during surgery to remove a Black Talon and libs were saying about the "inhumane" wounds caused by it. When first reintroduce I believe Winchester called it the SXT (said to stand for Same eXact Thing) not sure of when it started being called Ranger T.

    The lib press started calling them "Cop Killers", not because any offecer had ever been shot with one but because earlier they had succeeded in getting the KTW round outlawed using that term. The KTW was a Teflon coated bullet originally designed penetrate hard barriers like windshields and later found that the friction reducing properties of Teflon allowed it to go through soft body armor.

    Very few people outside of law enforcement and hard core shooters knew about the round, and LEO had used it to drop hard core criminals who were starting to wear body armor of their own (would have been nice if N. Hollywood cops had had KTWs, but they are illegal). Law enforcement on all levels tried to talk NBC out of running a story on the ammo because it not only exposed the existence of this ammo, but also highlighted the fact LEO were wearing body armor (and in fact LEO started taking more head shots) but NBC had a juicy story, dubbed the KTW the "COP KILLER" and ran the story.

    So now anything the lib media wants to ban in the firearm/ammo realm gets tagged "COP KILLER".
    The Black Talons were never coated in Teflon.

    Teflon has absolutely no properties which make it easier to penetrate body armor. It was added as a coating on some bullets to protect barrels and never intended on any round to be used for armor penetration- mostly because it doesn't work that way.

  21. #21
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    The Black Talons were never coated in Teflon.

    Teflon has absolutely no properties which make it easier to penetrate body armor. It was added as a coating on some bullets to protect barrels and never intended on any round to be used for armor penetration- mostly because it doesn't work that way.
    I don't think he said BT was teflon coated. But you are right on all points.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Olive Hill, Kentucky, USA
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    You asked and you receive:

    Sheriff of Montgomery Country

    Fred Shortridge
    One Court Street
    Mt. Sterling, KY 40353
    (859) 498-8704 – Office
    (859) 498-8694 – Fax
    I will see him tomorrow. I'll ask him.

    Edited to add: the trial I was to attend was cancelled, so I did not get to see the Sheriff.
    Last edited by MrOverlay; 04-10-2012 at 03:59 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    127
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    This statute was passed back in the late 1990's when there was national furor over "Back Talon" ammunition. Black Talon ammo would kill anything that got within 30 feet of it. It was especially deadly to police officers and this ammo was manufactured and sold by people that hated cops and wanted everyone of them dead. Winchester eventually changed the name of this terrible invention and all the problems went away. This same ammo is still on the market under the "Ranger" name. Not all Ranger ammo is like "Black Talon" but some is. I think it is called Ranger T. I think everything would have been alright if they had named it "White Talon". Black Talon ammo was one of the first "high performance" hollowpoint ammos on the market. Its jacket would split open like a flower petal and was said to spin and cut like a saw. I think this is the type of ammo that is refered to as "flanged ammunition" in the statute.
    The Ranger T incorporates most of the same features as the "black talon". There are a few differences however. The black talon had a lubalox coating, which made it black. A common misconception was the bullet was teflon coated enabling it to go through vest, when in reality hollow points make things much more difficult to penetrate. I think the ranger t is probably one of the best rounds on the market. It's what I carry everyday. My close 2nd favorite is the speer gold dot.

    By the way Ranger T is marked law enforcement only, however that is a company policy, not a law. You have to have credentials to purchase it from a winchester, but I've seen a few dealers sell it occasionally.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Gravel Switch, KY
    Posts
    544
    Maybe before someone goes to the sheriff with accusations, why don't they try going to the dealer to verify that there is a problem.

  25. #25
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    How about we go directly to the OFFICIAL who supposedly said to not sell hollow-point ammunition? Nobody has said he has for sure said these things because no one knows. The dealer has already said the sherrif said these things, drake told us in his post, which is the whole reason we are having this discussion. We need to go to the "supposed" source or we will not receive any answers. If he says he did not say that, then that is the end of it, if he says he did say it, then we try to gather some logic from his statement and solve the issue.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •