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Thread: OC @ Burger King 6902 Dixie Hwy Louisville

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    Bad experience OC'ing @ Burger King 6902 Dixie Hwy Louisville

    While OC'ing this afternoon I stopped at Burger King, when I went in I was told by the guy behind the counter "Unless you are law enforcement you can not carry that in here." my reply was "Do you have a sign posted?" Him "No. But that is our policy. I will take your order this one time if it is to go." my reply "No sir I don't think you will ever be taking my order again." Just a friendly heads up.
    Last edited by Nerfplz; 04-07-2012 at 07:44 PM.

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    You may want to call the store and ask for the manager on Monday and ask if it is in fact the store policy.

    If so, there's plenty of fast food places out there, also, if you must have food from there, you can always OC through the drive through.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerfplz View Post
    While OC'ing this afternoon I stopped at Burger King, when I went in I was told by the guy behind the counter "Unless you are law enforcement you can not carry that in here." my reply was "Do you have a sign posted?" Him "No. But that is our policy. I will take your order this one time if it is to go." my reply "No sir I don't think you will ever be taking my order again." Just a friendly heads up.
    Been said many times, many ways before - never ask about a sign. Why encourage/promote such?

    Better to leave and pursue with upper management in a polite and responsible way. The man behind the counter was likely expressing his personal bias or misapplying employee rules.

    I have never had a problem with Burger King - not anywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Been said many times, many ways before - never ask about a sign. Why encourage/promote such?

    Better to leave and pursue with upper management in a polite and responsible way. The man behind the counter was likely expressing his personal bias or misapplying employee rules.

    I have never had a problem with Burger King - not anywhere.
    Yes I know I should not have mentioned a sign but I was kinda shocked as I have OC'ed at this location numerous times without incident, I have no idea why but my first instinct was to ask if the policy was posted. I was very polite to the employee and will be courteous to the management on Monday as well, its my general disposition to behave and play nicely.
    Last edited by Nerfplz; 04-07-2012 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerfplz View Post
    Yes I know I should not have mentioned a sign but I was kinda shocked as I have OC'ed at this location numerous times without incident, I have no idea why but my first instinct was to ask if the policy was posted. I was very polite to the employee and will be courteous to the management on Monday as well, its my general disposition to behave and play nicely.
    Naturally. I always think that the business should have it's rules posted if they want the customers to follow them. You have certain rules that are assumed, but the ones that are not assumed should be posted. I usually see a "No Shirt, No shoes, No service" sign even though that it assumed but I assume nothing about legally carried firearms.

    Also Grapeshot, I think he had the right to ask about a sign. It is natural to inquire about how you were suppose to know the rules. Also, in Kentucky all a sign does is show people firearms aren't welcome there. Ignoring a sign (in a case like this) holds no penalties.
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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    i was at a BK today and all that was said was "is that a 45" by one of the service guys there. no one said anything and didn't go in to hysterics either

    if they had i would have immediately asked for a manager, and if that didn't go right i would have asked for the regional manager's #, till i went as far as i could go
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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    I sent a nice e-mail to corporate inquiring about their policy and I will contact store management Monday. I will follow up with what I learn.

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    I posted this in another tread but i believe we should make a sticky on OC friendly location vs none. Then we can choose where we spend our money. Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Great response. I don't think a policy that is not expressed to the public is actually a policy. What good is a secret policy? I would never suggest that a business post a sign, but if a business wants certain actions excluded from their property, they have an obligation to tell people what those actions are. Lots of places don't post because they are afraid that doing so will cost them business, we need to confirm that suspicion. I think a complaint to management is required. I hope you know this guys name/position. Whether they post or not, they need to know that this "policy" will cost them.
    Not particularly picking on Gutshot. Just using his post to work from.

    I don't know that any property owner is obligated to post his rules in advance. Holding to a pre-posted view is essentially saying he has to think up all his policies and post them, and he's in the wrong if he fails to foresee something against which he would make a policy.

    Basically, this is a timing matter. A sign notifies in advance. A verbal notification comes later.

    Now, here's a bit of a criticism. Basically what is occurring in these situations where an OCer is verbally notified and the OCer asks about a sign is that the OCer is being defensive. The "where's the sign" question is a defensive reaction. Why be defensive? He didn't post a sign, so its not your fault for not seeing it. And, if he did post a sign and you missed it, so what? Its not like you failed to let a little old lady get fully across the street and splashed her with mud. Moreover, and my biggest criticism, is that the "where's the sign" question shows a lack of consideration for the property rights of the business owner. If one really, truly respected his property rights, one wouldn't require him to clutter up his property with one more sign, or spend money on a sign, in order to ward off the occasional OCer. And, perhaps most importantly, one would recognize his right to make up a new policy on the spot and notify verbally.

    The owner/agent can tell whoever whichever whenever.

    So, don't get defensive if verbally notified. Don't ask about a sign. Just take the high road, be polite, make your exit. If you want to get in a counter-dig (which is your right), you can always point out to him that you won the instant he opened his mouth--you were willing to respect his rights, even though he wasn't willing to respect yours. In fact, I would at the very least say something like, "Oh, sorry, sir. Yes, sir. I will respect your rights even though you won't respect mine. Have a nice day." ("Thanks for giving me the win" would be optional.)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Reminds me of the time I was in the BK a couple blocks from me. A guy was talking to the girls behind the counter. He saw me and my gun as I walked up and said oh oh the po po is here let me get out of the way. I told em I was not a cop and he said why do you have a gun then? Before I could answer the young girl behind the counter told him it was legal to open carry in Kentucky and then she took my order. I was never asked to leave and the manager was right there behind the counter. +1 for her and her knowledge of OC.
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    @citizen. You are correct, the owner of a property can tell whoever he wishes to leave if they are OCing. However, he did not speak with the owner/controller of the property, he was speaking to an employee. This employee has no authority to ask anyone to not bring a firearm in their employers store, unless explicitly told to do so by the owner/controller. The best course of action is to ask whoever owns the business, and if they ask you to not carry then go somewhere else for lunch.

    This should not be necessary because most business owners who do not want firearms inside their buildings voluntarily post signs prohibiting firearms, just like they post signs denying entrance if you are not wearing shoes or a shirt. His store is open to the public, so it is his job to inform the public what he does not want in his store.

    When it comes to property rights, you really do not have many rights. The government tells you WHO you can and can't serve, they tell you WHAT you can and can't serve, they tell you WHAT IS and IS NOT ALLOWED in "YOUR" store, they inspect your store to make sure it is up to their standard, and if not you get shut down!

    If a store owner can't prohibit someone from entering because the color of their skin, or because they speak a different language, why should they be allowed to prohibit us from entering while exercising our constitutionally protected rights?
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    @citizen. You are correct, the owner of a property can tell whoever he wishes to leave if they are OCing. However, he did not speak with the owner/controller of the property, he was speaking to an employee. This employee has no authority to ask anyone to not bring a firearm in their employers store, unless explicitly told to do so by the owner/controller. The best course of action is to ask whoever owns the business, and if they ask you to not carry then go somewhere else for lunch.

    This should not be necessary because most business owners who do not want firearms inside their buildings voluntarily post signs prohibiting firearms, just like they post signs denying entrance if you are not wearing shoes or a shirt. His store is open to the public, so it is his job to inform the public what he does not want in his store.

    When it comes to property rights, you really do not have many rights. The government tells you WHO you can and can't serve, they tell you WHAT you can and can't serve, they tell you WHAT IS and IS NOT ALLOWED in "YOUR" store, they inspect your store to make sure it is up to their standard, and if not you get shut down!

    If a store owner can't prohibit someone from entering because the color of their skin, or because they speak a different language, why should they be allowed to prohibit us from entering while exercising our constitutionally protected rights?
    This something that has been addressed many times before

    Yes an employee can deny or restrict what you do in a business - he is a representative of the company. He/she may be disciplined for their actions or not. The store is not the place to "hold court."

    Government very seldom instructs what "is allowed" - far more often what is not allowed.

    Remember that private businesses are first and foremost private property and those people that carry are not a protected class. Would like in many ways for that to be so, but until that day.............
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    This something that has been addressed many times before

    Yes an employee can deny or restrict what you do in a business - he is a representative of the company. He/she may be disciplined for their actions or not. The store is not the place to "hold court."

    Government very seldom instructs what "is allowed" - far more often what is not allowed.

    Remember that private businesses are first and foremost private property and those people that carry are not a protected class. Would like in many ways for that to be so, but until that day.............

    Well you've obviously not visited Ky very often. They tell you if you can or can't sell alcohol, they tell you if you can or can't allow smoking, they do visit your resteraunt every month and will shut you down if you are not doing what they allow, if your soil isn't just right you might not even get to build a resteraunt Or anything else for that matter because they will not allow you to build. Just look at what happend in Georgia because a man wanted chickens, or the EPA seizing people's property and fining them thousands a day because they fail to do what the govt. Says or they're property they have owned for years is now protected!

    I will post it later, but in this state, ONlY the owner or lessee of a property can deny you
    from carrying on their property.

    KRS 237.110(17) Read it, signs MUST be posted by the owner or lessee to prohibit carry.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 04-13-2012 at 12:53 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    --snip--

    I will post it later, but in this state, ONlY the owner or lessee of a property can deny you
    from carrying on their property.

    KRS 237.110(17) Read it, signs MUST be posted by the owner or lessee to prohibit carry.
    Explain this please:

    (c) Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in paragraph (a) or (b) of this sub-section by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.
    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/237-00/110.PDF
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    If you don't want to 'hold court' after being refused service, simply say, "Okay. Can I get your name and your manager's name and number before I go?" If they want you out right away, offer to pick up that information at the drive-thru window.

    Definitely make the call ASAP. As a former restaurant manager, I know I would want to know immediately if an employee was making policy decisions that:

    a) I didn't make
    b) I didn't agree with
    and
    c) were costing me paying customers

    If I got a call from an OC who was refused service, I would ask them to please return to my store and tell the employee that he/she has a phone call waiting for them in the office. I would 'correct' the employee attitude and the OC would have a meal on the house.
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    This is good info. I had a run in with an employee at circle K and questioned me if we all carried weapons (i was in work uniform). My first resonse was no just me.Then he said they did not allow firearms in the store. Yes, I did say "I didn't see a sign." It just went back and forth after that but it was not overly rude. However it was only my second encountier so I am not overly comfortable yet. Which is why I looked for this site anyway.
    Last edited by Volksford; 04-14-2012 at 01:09 AM.

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    Sign or not, once you have been asked/told to leave and you refuse, you're trespassing and could be cited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    Sign or not, once you have been asked/told to leave and you refuse, you're trespassing and could be cited.
    You can not be charged for trespassing unless you are asked/told to leave in the presence of a LEO. In Kentucky, law enforcement must see the misdemeanor violation before charges can be brought. The store owner can go to the county attorney and file a complaint, but that opens him to the possibility of a lawsuit. I am not suggesting you not leave when asked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    You can not be charged for trespassing unless you are asked/told to leave in the presence of a LEO. In Kentucky, law enforcement must see the misdemeanor violation before charges can be brought. The store owner can go to the county attorney and file a complaint, but that opens him to the possibility of a lawsuit. I am not suggesting you not leave when asked.
    Cite?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Cite?
    431.015 Citation for misdemeanor -- Arrest for certain misdemeanors -- Failure to appear.
    (1) (a) KRS 431.005 to the contrary notwithstanding, and except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this subsection, apeace officer shall issue a citation instead ofmaking an arrest for a misdemeanor committed in his or her presence, if there are reasonable grounds to believe that the person being cited will appear to answer the charge. The citation shall provide that the defendant shall appear within a designated time.
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    It doesn't say that the person has to be asked, in the presence of a peace, to leave to be criminal trespass. If anyone is asked to leave and they remain there when a LEO shows up they can be cited for trespass. The LEO doesn't have to be their when they're asked to leave.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    It doesn't say that the person has to be asked, in the presence of a peace, to leave to be criminal trespass. If anyone is asked to leave and they remain there when a LEO shows up they can be cited for trespass. The LEO doesn't have to be their when they're asked to leave.
    This is an interesting point. Off the cuff, I would agree with this. I might be wrong, but I would agree with it. The offense/trespass begins at the refusal to leave. If the cop shows up 15 minutes later, the offense is still being committed (assuming the trespasser hasn't left).

    Also, I'm not sure how trespass law works in KY, but in VA, it seems to me I can go to the magistrate myself and swear out a warrant for a trespasser. My point being that the KY statute about a misdemeanor may be more about 1) citations instead of arrests for misdemeanors, and 2) not turning cops into magistrates by letting them issue citations for offenses they didn't personally witness.

    Of course, maybe the cop needs to witness all the elements that go into the offense, not just the offense itself. On the other hand, what happens if three witnesses are all able to corroborate that the trespasser was already told to leave, and he refused, before the cops were called.
    Last edited by Citizen; 04-15-2012 at 12:59 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    If that were true the owner could just say he told you to leave and that you refused. He may not have done it. How does the LEO know that you were really told to leave? Do you think the LEO should or could just take his word for it? What if the cop comes over to you and you say, "He never said a word to me. If he wants me to leave, I'll gladly leave." Do you think the cop is going to arrest you anyway. No way. The owner wants you to leave and you're leaving, case closed, everybody is happy. Now, if the same LEO is called back to the same place next day and you're there again, your going downtown, because he knows you got the message that you were not wanted there.
    Thank you, Gutshot. You explained it perfectly. The portion of the law in italics says "in the presence of". That means the officer has to know a crime has been committed in his presence. How will he know if he doesn't have the business owner ask you to leave, in their presence?
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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    It doesn't say that the person has to be asked, in the presence of a peace, to leave to be criminal trespass. If anyone is asked to leave and they remain there when a LEO shows up they can be cited for trespass. The LEO doesn't have to be their when they're asked to leave.
    When was the last time the police took your word that a crime was committed? Unless you go to the county attorney and file a complaint, the police will not arrest on a misdemeanor that did not occur in there presence. Under this new law, they must issue a citiation rather than arrest, as long as there is no reason to believe the accused will not appear. And yes, the police do have to be there and they have to ask or have the owner ask you to leave.
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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    This is an interesting point. Off the cuff, I would agree with this. I might be wrong, but I would agree with it. The offense/trespass begins at the refusal to leave. If the cop shows up 15 minutes later, the offense is still being committed (assuming the trespasser hasn't left).

    Also, I'm not sure how trespass law works in KY, but in VA, it seems to me I can go to the magistrate myself and swear out a warrant for a trespasser. My point being that the KY statute about a misdemeanor may be more about 1) citations instead of arrests for misdemeanors, and 2) not turning cops into magistrates by letting them issue citations for offenses they didn't personally witness.

    Of course, maybe the cop needs to witness all the elements that go into the offense, not just the offense itself. On the other hand, what happens if three witnesses are all able to corroborate that the trespasser was already told to leave, and he refused, before the cops were called.
    Citizen, you are correct. Anyone can go to the County Attorney and file a complaint for trespassing. A summons will be issued and a court date picked. When you do so, you also assume all responsibility of the filing and any subsequent lawsuit. If 3 witnesses are available, great, but, in Kentucky, the trespass is not a trespass, legally, until it happens in the presence of a LEO. That is why the law says "in the presence of".
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