FallonJeeper
Regular Member
You guys could look like Crocket and Tubbs from Miami Vice.
Come on, admit we know you loved that show.
Come on, admit we know you loved that show.
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OC With A Shoulder Holster
- Thread starter Rollbar
- Start date
*hand in the air* That would be me. When I OC one of my primary concerns is retention, and I personally feel much safer from a gun grab with a shoulder holster that I do with a belt holster unless the belt holster is worn in the appendix position (somewhere between 12:30 and 1:30). I still wear a shoulder holster almost every day CC'd under a suit jacket, but when OCing frankly I'm tired of getting looks like I'm the guy who farted in the elevator.
Yes, there were some who politely expressed concerns in person, and I hopefully replied just as politely my views on the subject, in my case backed up by actual facts as well as the documented opinion of Col. Cooper, the guy that everyone loves to selectively quote.
For the sake of not beating this poor, dead horse, I'll just say that I am perfectly happy to OC a horizontal shoulder holster whenever and wherever I see fit, comfortable in my knowledge of both the law and gun safety.
2
28kfps
Guest
Thanks LV. Kind of figured you would be jumping in and correct any of my assumptions on your experience.
Merlin
Regular Member
Just a thought on this topic.
It doesn't help our agenda to constantly pit our agenda in opposition to the comfort of others. While you may be legally entitled to carry it horizontally in a shoulder rig, that doesn't make it the considerate thing to do.
Now, before someone angrily hits reply and starts mashing keys, think about it for a second: You wouldn't be here (in the forum) if you didn't take some personal interest in furthering the cause (right?). So with that said, there will be times where what you feel is right (to the letter-of-the-law/constitution) may not always be the same as what is best for the cause as a whole.
I think this particular issue is a good example of that. Just because you CAN carry it that way, does that mean you SHOULD disregard the (possibly) negative reaction it might incite?
Before you say "The same could be said about OC", step back from it a bit and ask yourself if it ultimately benefits the cause. OC'ing benefits the cause of OC. OC'ing in a way that makes civilians uncomfortable can do more harm than good, WRT public opinion. And whether you like it or not, if we are to succeed in our stated agenda, we MUST convert some civvies along the way.
If you need a comparison to help see it clearly, imagine the whole ghetto-pants-ass-hanging-out-style that won't seem to die. Now imagine if one of your fellow brothers-in-OC was seen dressed like that. Makes you cringe, doesn't it? Sure, it is well within his rights to dress like a retard. But does it further the cause?
You may not want to be a role model, but you are. Act like one. Make choices like one. Be respectful, and respectable. "An armed society is a polite society" means so much more than is obvious on the surface.
It doesn't help our agenda to constantly pit our agenda in opposition to the comfort of others. While you may be legally entitled to carry it horizontally in a shoulder rig, that doesn't make it the considerate thing to do.
Now, before someone angrily hits reply and starts mashing keys, think about it for a second: You wouldn't be here (in the forum) if you didn't take some personal interest in furthering the cause (right?). So with that said, there will be times where what you feel is right (to the letter-of-the-law/constitution) may not always be the same as what is best for the cause as a whole.
I think this particular issue is a good example of that. Just because you CAN carry it that way, does that mean you SHOULD disregard the (possibly) negative reaction it might incite?
Before you say "The same could be said about OC", step back from it a bit and ask yourself if it ultimately benefits the cause. OC'ing benefits the cause of OC. OC'ing in a way that makes civilians uncomfortable can do more harm than good, WRT public opinion. And whether you like it or not, if we are to succeed in our stated agenda, we MUST convert some civvies along the way.
If you need a comparison to help see it clearly, imagine the whole ghetto-pants-ass-hanging-out-style that won't seem to die. Now imagine if one of your fellow brothers-in-OC was seen dressed like that. Makes you cringe, doesn't it? Sure, it is well within his rights to dress like a retard. But does it further the cause?
You may not want to be a role model, but you are. Act like one. Make choices like one. Be respectful, and respectable. "An armed society is a polite society" means so much more than is obvious on the surface.
I don't know who I would offend w/the shoulder holster, and for that matter just carrying a weapon/offends many now a days.
I am not here for a cause, I am here excersizing my right by my fore fathers, the right that has been suppressed by modern man and thinking with in line with your post. If we want to set up a cause scenario, then we need to organize like the NRA or NFAC and get the word out in force/mailings to the authorities stating reminders of the constitution to said individuals. ( www.guerrillalawfare.com )
Have I worn it yet, no. Will I, yes, and I won't worry about it because like someone said, it is a chunk of metal until the trigger is pulled. Just go to youtube or something like that and watch some videos on a weapon safetied, and one not while in engagement, the one safetied is not going to hurt anyone. EDUCATION!!! is the key.
How about Afghanistan, snipers taking out sergeants w/RPG's on their backs.
This cause is my own cause in context to the statement above until we get organized. Are we really organized? No, the proof shows by your post and restrictions on said person, and what they might do,/what the reaction might be from others.
Many, many people are offended just buy seeing you OC, you can't deny that-again, EDUCATION is the KEY to the continued success of OC and to even carry a weapon.
*Question:What if I came up to you for example and said, I do not like you carrying that weapon (OC) on your hip (since by obvious reasoning you don't wear a shoulder holster). What would you say? Would you not carry seeing you are offending me/public? No, you would carry-be honest.
I hope I explained my post correctly and since-ably, and I do understand your post and appreciate your thoughts.
I am not here for a cause, I am here excersizing my right by my fore fathers, the right that has been suppressed by modern man and thinking with in line with your post. If we want to set up a cause scenario, then we need to organize like the NRA or NFAC and get the word out in force/mailings to the authorities stating reminders of the constitution to said individuals. ( www.guerrillalawfare.com )
Have I worn it yet, no. Will I, yes, and I won't worry about it because like someone said, it is a chunk of metal until the trigger is pulled. Just go to youtube or something like that and watch some videos on a weapon safetied, and one not while in engagement, the one safetied is not going to hurt anyone. EDUCATION!!! is the key.
How about Afghanistan, snipers taking out sergeants w/RPG's on their backs.
This cause is my own cause in context to the statement above until we get organized. Are we really organized? No, the proof shows by your post and restrictions on said person, and what they might do,/what the reaction might be from others.
Many, many people are offended just buy seeing you OC, you can't deny that-again, EDUCATION is the KEY to the continued success of OC and to even carry a weapon.
*Question:What if I came up to you for example and said, I do not like you carrying that weapon (OC) on your hip (since by obvious reasoning you don't wear a shoulder holster). What would you say? Would you not carry seeing you are offending me/public? No, you would carry-be honest.
I hope I explained my post correctly and since-ably, and I do understand your post and appreciate your thoughts.
Merlin
Regular Member
True, that's why I covered that in my previous statements. It is totally your choice. I'm not suggesting that it is, or should be, illegal, or any such thing. I;m saying that for me, a large part of OC is trying to recruit others of like mind that maybe just haven't seen the light yet, or don't know their rights. That's my agenda, and maybe it isn't yours. That's fine I suppose, just disappointing.
But don't you at least see the relevance that the two can't be separated? The right IS the cause. Whether you choose to be saddled with the burden of the cause is certainly your choice. I'm just trying to point out that, on an individual level, you can still make choices that are good, or not so good, for the continued ability to exercise that right.
You and I understand that. That doesn't help assuage soccer mom in the elevator. Not that assuaging soccer mom is your responsibility. All I am saying is consider perception. But your earlier statements about not being here for the cause negate that, so nevermind.
Agreed. Education is key. It is much easier to educate them when they are interested, and not put-off. That's all. For me, the whole horizontal thing is largely about 'pointed in a safe direction'. Practice what I preach, and all that. I have a horizontal carry shoulder rig, had it for years. And I don't mind wearing it, for CC when the situation is appropriate. But the last time I put it on in recent memory, my then 8-year old remarked "Daddy, I though rule number one was to always keep it pointed in a safe direction?". Yeah, I know, second floor and all that. Perception. Nuff said.
I specifically covered this. Making progress in OC acceptance means sometimes having to turn up the heat slowly. I am not going to concede OC entirely, as that doesn't make any progress. But I will do my best to present it in a positive light. Surely everyone here can agree on the importance of that?
You did, and I apprecaite your feedback, it helps me better formulate my wording. I agree that organization is sorely lacking, especially with NRA not actively backing OC. In the meantime though, I consider it my personal responsibility to try to educate as many people as I can, one at a time if I have to. That starts by making the best first impression of OC that I can. Even if that means that I can't quad-wield (although I do, sometimes).
Maybe I didn't come across entirely on my question in bold. Presenting OC in a positive light to you may be offensive to others-with that said, if said person didn't like you OCing on your hip it still would not matter what they think-you are still gonna do it-PRESENTING it the best way you can, and being positive. Positive to me means education and conduct-not wearing a certain holster while using words to wear another type but being viewed by the public in the same way, right. Most of them don't care about a holster, they think guns kill-they don't, people w/guns kill. You will get pros and cons on anything and this is one of them. If you were never taught that muzzling was incorrect w/a safe weapon/on safe etc, and carrying on your hip was not correct/unsafe the the tables would be reversed-just saying; EDUCATION.
There is nothing wrong w/a shoulder holster and I can't presume people will not like it-people don't like the hip ones either but that doesn't stop anyone from wearing a gun, nor should it.
Like I said, I am not here for the cause in CONTEXT as I was stating so don't take that out of context. The very fact that I OC means I support the cause but I am not going to let people tell me I can't wear, or should not wear, a type of gear that might offend the people/cause when the uneducated are set in their minds already. Using a statement like wearing a certain type of gear (Shoulder Holster) and being detrimental to the cause is lame IMO, and if that is the case then, you should not wear it under a jacket because someone might know about it and that will put a black eye on the cause, plus you are muzzling someone in the process when you clearly stated it shouldn't be done citing your 8yr child etc understand and all that.
Everyone has their own OC cause and they way they go about it, 9x out of 10 it is the same.
ONLY Organization and public EDUCATION will work. I am not a member of the NRA nor will be due to the fact.... well I will let that go.
I am a new member of the NFAC and seeing what they can do, if they can't do, nor will do anything, I will not join the next time around. Talk is cheap, and to me, these organizations need to invest in some of these situations so this won't be a problem in the future.
We hear all the time-we are for guns, and carrying, and gun owner rights, and I agree to a certain point, but, the need is to cover all aspects of weaponry, not just how many members we can get, or how big we can get and lobby Govt. Sometimes I think some of these organizations forget where they started and the people who support them. Again, it comes to education and us as OCers doing what we know and think is best and staying w/in the law. rant -off
If you want to address something more so than a holster, than address people who willingly stir the pot not for the betterment of OCing, that would be a main concern, and we understand exactly what I am saying.
My weapon is safe in my holster and the holster MFG would not make it if they were or could be liable for said holster and in the direction they point. Even the police wear their shoulder holster and w/jackets off - they are safe if used right.
Perception-I can't tell you about that cause I can't read peoples minds-until then, I will act according to the law and wear my weapon in a safe manner and be polite/move out of the way if need be.
I would hope this mystical muzzle situation will fade, again, a chunk of metal until used (not demeaning a muzzle or saying any muzzle is 100% safe. Your side arm holster is not 100% safe as you mentioned etc). I would like you to remember the first time you OCed, or some of us OCed, you/some were nervous, thinking what if, then that fades w/training and education. This is the perception of the public, the more they see, the more they accept as normal.
Just so you understand, I am here to help the cause but the cause needs direction as a national group and I would step up to help that situation and make a national forum for it-a club if you will, like the NRA/NFAC whereas we can be under one umbrella / one forum and not 100 different one where the right hand doesn't really know what the left is doing. The Nv forum section on this forum is doing a good job as I see it-could this be better-yes-it just takes work. I wonder if the NRA would spend some of their money for a cause like this? Or would they see it as competition :question: Just a thought.
As I said before, these are thoughts, and I am not pointing my finger, nor mad at the posts/posters. I appreciate your thoughts and concerns as I know your intentions are pure (as mine are as well) and only to help the cause.
There is nothing wrong w/a shoulder holster and I can't presume people will not like it-people don't like the hip ones either but that doesn't stop anyone from wearing a gun, nor should it.
Like I said, I am not here for the cause in CONTEXT as I was stating so don't take that out of context. The very fact that I OC means I support the cause but I am not going to let people tell me I can't wear, or should not wear, a type of gear that might offend the people/cause when the uneducated are set in their minds already. Using a statement like wearing a certain type of gear (Shoulder Holster) and being detrimental to the cause is lame IMO, and if that is the case then, you should not wear it under a jacket because someone might know about it and that will put a black eye on the cause, plus you are muzzling someone in the process when you clearly stated it shouldn't be done citing your 8yr child etc understand and all that.
Everyone has their own OC cause and they way they go about it, 9x out of 10 it is the same.
ONLY Organization and public EDUCATION will work. I am not a member of the NRA nor will be due to the fact.... well I will let that go.
I am a new member of the NFAC and seeing what they can do, if they can't do, nor will do anything, I will not join the next time around. Talk is cheap, and to me, these organizations need to invest in some of these situations so this won't be a problem in the future.
We hear all the time-we are for guns, and carrying, and gun owner rights, and I agree to a certain point, but, the need is to cover all aspects of weaponry, not just how many members we can get, or how big we can get and lobby Govt. Sometimes I think some of these organizations forget where they started and the people who support them. Again, it comes to education and us as OCers doing what we know and think is best and staying w/in the law. rant -off
If you want to address something more so than a holster, than address people who willingly stir the pot not for the betterment of OCing, that would be a main concern, and we understand exactly what I am saying.
My weapon is safe in my holster and the holster MFG would not make it if they were or could be liable for said holster and in the direction they point. Even the police wear their shoulder holster and w/jackets off - they are safe if used right.
Perception-I can't tell you about that cause I can't read peoples minds-until then, I will act according to the law and wear my weapon in a safe manner and be polite/move out of the way if need be.
I would hope this mystical muzzle situation will fade, again, a chunk of metal until used (not demeaning a muzzle or saying any muzzle is 100% safe. Your side arm holster is not 100% safe as you mentioned etc). I would like you to remember the first time you OCed, or some of us OCed, you/some were nervous, thinking what if, then that fades w/training and education. This is the perception of the public, the more they see, the more they accept as normal.
Just so you understand, I am here to help the cause but the cause needs direction as a national group and I would step up to help that situation and make a national forum for it-a club if you will, like the NRA/NFAC whereas we can be under one umbrella / one forum and not 100 different one where the right hand doesn't really know what the left is doing. The Nv forum section on this forum is doing a good job as I see it-could this be better-yes-it just takes work. I wonder if the NRA would spend some of their money for a cause like this? Or would they see it as competition :question: Just a thought.
As I said before, these are thoughts, and I am not pointing my finger, nor mad at the posts/posters. I appreciate your thoughts and concerns as I know your intentions are pure (as mine are as well) and only to help the cause.
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Merlin
Regular Member
I think one thing I can say that might bring us closer to a point of convergence on this:
If said shoulder rig is closed on the backside, such that a person behind me isnt staring at an open barrel, then I am all good with it. You and I know that that little change wouldn't make a lick of difference functionally (except maybe to keep dust out). But even soccer mom knows that if you can see down the barrel, you're on the wrong end. The mechanics behind it are lost on them.
If said shoulder rig is closed on the backside, such that a person behind me isnt staring at an open barrel, then I am all good with it. You and I know that that little change wouldn't make a lick of difference functionally (except maybe to keep dust out). But even soccer mom knows that if you can see down the barrel, you're on the wrong end. The mechanics behind it are lost on them.
Yes agree 100%. Open rear. I did mention that to my son as well, since we both have the same. It mainly was a question incase I decided to OC w/it. I'm still gonna try it (will probably feel a little uncomfortable since a 1/4 of the gun sticks out-on the Glock-the "G" on the left side of the slide shows).
It is pretty small and my arm covers most of it. We will see, but I can always have Peach sow a black cloth on the end, no biggie. We did not buy it to OC but to CCW, yet we will OC a few times, depends on the day I guess but I am not making a point to OC w/it 100%.
My question was IF I OCed w/it was it legal under my arm. I was just checking to make sure.
Jim
Merlin
Regular Member
Yep, I see no reason not, except for the ******* factor of certain (but not all) uninformed LEOs. By airing this topic hear, you will be better prepared to stand your ground on the matter should you be confronted. I love this forum for that. Despite our bits of infighting, we are all, largely, on the same side. Getting the opinions and feedback of fellow OCers goes a long way towards confident OC, and that is half the battle. Being schooled on the legalities of the matters helps you verbalize it in an informed manner when confronted, LEO or Civvy. Kudos for doing your homework.
2
28kfps
Guest
A chunk of metal until the trigger is pulled.
Certainly not one of those nasty guns the mainstream media and anti gun groups talks about. The type of gun modern day laws is protecting us from. The nasty guns that unexpectedly indiscriminately without any influence from a human jumps out of it’s hiding place and mysteriously starts firing.
Merlin makes a very good point that I may bother someone with the mentality of an 8-year-old if I were to wear a shoulder holster.
That can go for any holster for that matter. :shocker:
Exactly, which is why we should not OC with shoulder holsters. Also we should not OC with small of the back or cross draw holsters because those will muzzle anyone standing on our support side. And we shouldn't OC if we have tattoos or long hair (or no hair - could be mistaken for a skin head). Also, and I'll try to be delicate here, don't OC if you have dark skin. You might make a stupid, I mean "sensitive" person think that you are a terrorist or an illegal alien or a New Black Panther.
Think of the children. And the people who think like children.
Merlin
Regular Member
Sigh..
You can treat civvies like sheeple/enemies, if you like.
I do my best to treat them as my potential-future-friend-that-I-take-to-the-range. I have made a few by doing just that.
It IS each persons individual choice to carry in any legal manner they wish. If you are interested, I am working on a dual-wield model of holster that straps the guns to the side of your head in something that looks like a high school wrestling headgear. You won't catch me dead wearing it, but if you'll wear it, I'll produce it.
You can treat civvies like sheeple/enemies, if you like.
I do my best to treat them as my potential-future-friend-that-I-take-to-the-range. I have made a few by doing just that.
It IS each persons individual choice to carry in any legal manner they wish. If you are interested, I am working on a dual-wield model of holster that straps the guns to the side of your head in something that looks like a high school wrestling headgear. You won't catch me dead wearing it, but if you'll wear it, I'll produce it.
DVC
Regular Member
. . .and when your future friend figures out that your canted hip holster has been aiming your pistol at their knee, they're supposed to feel better that they didn't know until now?
Both points of view have their strengths and weaknesses. There is no way to bring the two points together into one.