Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37

Thread: Unofficial: NM will be dropping reciprocity with AZ

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    391

    Unofficial: NM will be dropping reciprocity with AZ

    Arizona will be dropped as soon as they get around to looking the laws over and sending a letter to make it official.

    Arizona violates 3 rules of New Mexico statute 29-19-12E (reciprocity):
    AZ gives permits to legally resident aliens
    AZ doesn't require classroom training
    AZ doesn't require live-fire training

  2. #2
    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Renton, Wa
    Posts
    662
    Baloney!!! To get an Arizona permit, you have to take a class that includes live fire training. Where does new Mexico think these don't apply? There is no permit requirement to carry in Arizona, but there are requirements that must be met if a person still wants a permit!

  3. #3
    Regular Member Super Saiyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    155
    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    AZ doesn't require classroom training
    AZ doesn't require live-fire training
    When I got my permit back in '09, I was required to attend eight hours of classroom training, which included mandatory live-fire.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    3,958
    This is bogus information... spread by someone who doesn't know beans (as per usual). LINK?
    Last edited by Sonora Rebel; 04-16-2012 at 04:43 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    210

  6. #6
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    3,958
    http://www.dps.nm.org/index.php/nm-c...ty-agreements/

    New Mexico statute 29-19-12E requires that in order for a state to be recognized by NM, their provisions have to be “at least as stringent or substantially similar” to New Mexico. NMDPS has generally found six things that make a state substantially different from New Mexico, and therefore would disqualify that state from being recognized:

    Permits issued locally rather than by the state;
    No fingerprint-based background check;
    Permits issued to persons under 21 years of age;
    Permits issued to resident aliens; What are the requirements necessary to obtain an Arizona CCW Permit? - Must be a United States citizen or permanent resident alien. No classroom (static) training required;
    No live-fire (dynamic) training required.

    As we continue our audit and make changes accordingly, this page will be updated to reflect the most current information.

    The State of New Mexico has written reciprocity agreements or acknowledgements in place with Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas and West Virginia. For New Mexico concealed carry permit holders traveling to other states, please see the following websites for information concerning your privilege to carry concealed in these states:


    The resident alien provision is troubling. It's only for CCW anyway. Open Carry is a right recognzed in New Mexico (by law)... altho some of their metro type city
    cops seem to be totally ignorant of that.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lynnwood, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,238
    Lawsuit was filed today challenging the non-citizen thing.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,509
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Lawsuit was filed today challenging the non-citizen thing.
    I believe that was already settled in other states. I know that Kentucky tried it, then quickly back-peddled because the courts had already ruled against them.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    No Rumor

    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    Arizona will be dropped as soon as they get around to looking the laws over and sending a letter to make it official.

    Arizona violates 3 rules of New Mexico statute 29-19-12E (reciprocity):
    AZ gives permits to legally resident aliens
    AZ doesn't require classroom training
    AZ doesn't require live-fire training
    This is no rumor. I have been in contact via e-mails with Mr. Bill Hubbard, NM Director of Public Safety, Special Investigations Division:

    Bill Hubbard

    Director

    New Mexico Department of Public Safety

    Special Investigations Division

    6301 Indian School Rd. NE, Suite 310

    Albuquerque, NM 87110

    (505)841-8053

    Bill.Hubbard@state.nm.us

    After several e-mails back and forth Bill stated that Arizona CCW permits are not honored in NM because Arizona does not meet all of the NM requirements. I told him that he should have the website, which he said he was the Manger of, corrected immediately to reflect the right information. This is a serious matter, to me, and a lot of others, as I was going to visit NM very soon and thought that my Arizona permit was OK in NM per their Official CCW website. I would have been in violation of NM laws and, I presume, subject to arrest. Needless to say I will NOT be visiting NM until they change their CCW laws. Bob.

    P.S. I have also contacted the Arizona CCW unit by e-mail to mention the above and that their website does not show that there is no reciprocity with NM.
    Update: Today I was advised that the Arizona CCW Unit has contacted the NM CCW Unit and were told that NM no longer has reciprocity with Arizona permits. They said the Arizona website will be corrected ASAP.

    As of 4/26/12 the Arizona CCW site (http://www.azdps.gov/services/concealed_weapons/) now states "As of April 26,2012 New Mexico will no longer recognize Arizona concealed weapons permits as valid in their state". They also updated their reciprocity list to show no reciprocity with NM. Thanks to the GREAT Arizona CCW Unit for updating their site. After hearing by e-mail how great a job the Director of the NM CCW Unit was doing his job, they have not updated their website at all! Bob.
    Last edited by BobF; 04-26-2012 at 09:42 PM. Reason: Revised P.S. again

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by acmariner99 View Post
    Baloney!!! To get an Arizona permit, you have to take a class that includes live fire training. Where does new Mexico think these don't apply? There is no permit requirement to carry in Arizona, but there are requirements that must be met if a person still wants a permit!
    There is no longer a class and live fire requirement. There was when I got my AZ license in September of 2010 but things have changed since last year. I spoke with the AZ DPS directly to confirm this.


    Needless to say I will NOT be visiting NM until they change their CCW laws. Bob.
    And this is one specific reason I mentioned elsewhere why NM is shooting itself in the foot. I have seen this exact sentiment expressed by others as well. NM is supposed to be encouraging visitation, not giving people more reasons to stay away.

    There is NOTHING good about this at all. It stinks.
    Last edited by AH.74; 04-26-2012 at 09:01 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    Arizona will be dropped as soon as they get around to looking the laws over and sending a letter to make it official.

    Arizona violates 3 rules of New Mexico statute 29-19-12E (reciprocity):
    AZ gives permits to legally resident aliens
    AZ doesn't require classroom training
    AZ doesn't require live-fire training
    I can vouch for violation of rule 3 - I used my Utah permit as "proof of training" to obtain my AZ permit and Utah does not require live-fire training.

    I hope NM gets their site updated to reflect this REAL FAST!!!
    Last edited by Roy V; 04-27-2012 at 09:59 AM. Reason: AZ site updated

  12. #12
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    3,958
    Inasmuch as Open Carry has been recognized in New Mexico w/o permit, training or live fire proficiency since inception... and inasmuch as New Mexico never had its own CCW permit until 2004... I don't see what their problem is? Is one any less armed in either mode of carry? If anything, NM would be better served by dropping this 'permit for fee' nonsense and adopting Constitutional Carry.

  13. #13
    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Renton, Wa
    Posts
    662
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    Inasmuch as Open Carry has been recognized in New Mexico w/o permit, training or live fire proficiency since inception... and inasmuch as New Mexico never had its own CCW permit until 2004... I don't see what their problem is? Is one any less armed in either mode of carry? If anything, NM would be better served by dropping this 'permit for fee' nonsense and adopting Constitutional Carry.
    Unfortunately Sonora, NM isn't as friendly to Open Carry as one might think. State Parks are off limits to carry of any kind, you must carry concealed at a minimum where alcohol is present (requiring a valid CWP) -- even for off premises consumption. So gas stations, wal-marts, convenience stores -- places travelers would frequent -- many of them are off limits to open carry. Travelers have to keep their wits about them in NM as it is, it would be a lot harder if they dropped AZ's permit.

    And while I agree NM should adopt Constitutional Carry -- their regs in regards to alcohol being present would more than likely stand - similar to what AZ currently requires. I'm not saying I agree with that, but that is how it would likely proceed.
    Last edited by acmariner99; 04-26-2012 at 12:50 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    3,958

    http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concealed_Weapons/Permits/Obtain/

    Eligibility
    Applicants must:

    be a resident of this state or a United States citizen;
    be twenty-one years of age or older;
    not be under indictment for a felony offense;
    not be convicted of a felony offense, unless the conviction has been expunged, set aside, vacated or pardoned, or the individuals right to possess firearms has be restored AND the individual must not be a prohibited possessor under state or federal law.
    not suffer from mental illness and been adjudicated mentally incompetent or committed to a mental institution;
    not be unlawfully present in the United States;
    complete a firearms safety training program pursuant to ARS §13-3112.N.

    http://www.azdps.gov/Links/ARS/?l=13/03112.htm
    ARS §13-3112.N. (N.) An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:

    1. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class that is available to the general public, that is offered by a law enforcement agency, a junior college, a college or a private or public institution, academy, organization or firearms training school and that is approved by the department of public safety or that uses instructors who are certified by the national rifle association.

    2. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.

    3. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.

    4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class that is offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies or other divisions or subdivisions of law enforcement or security enforcement and that is approved by the department of public safety.

    5. Evidence of current military service or proof of honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions from the United States armed forces.

    6. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

    7. Completion of any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualification to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties.

    8. Completion of any other firearms safety or training course or class that is conducted by a department of public safety approved or national rifle association certified firearms instructor.

    As an aside: I'd already completed #5 & 7 but still had to complete #1 to get the AZ CWP. At any rate... I can't figure NM's problem.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    As I've mentioned over in the NM forum, NM's problem (IMO) is that they're practicing job justification rather than serving the people as they wish to be served and should be served. They're more concerned with making seemingly important decisions to keep us all safe than realizing their new policy enforcement will have severely negative repercussions. Restricting other state residents from being able to carry here makes no sense and has no basis in actual facts regarding safety in the real world. It is their lofty idealization, nothing more.

    I do not think this state will be able to consider constitutional carry- too many people would fear losing their jobs.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23
    See my message above that I have updated today with the latest info. BobF.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by BobF View Post
    See my message above that I have updated today with the latest info. BobF.


    Thanks for the update Bob, much appreciated! Someone/we should probably let usacarry.com know about the change.

    Edit: Handgunlaw.us has been notified and updated. I exchanged a few e-mails with Gary, the guy who runs the site - what a great guy
    Last edited by Roy V; 04-27-2012 at 10:44 AM. Reason: handgunlaw.us updated

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    771
    Quote Originally Posted by BobF View Post
    This is no rumor. I have been in contact via e-mails with Mr. Bill Hubbard, NM Director of Public Safety, Special Investigations Division:



    After several e-mails back and forth Bill stated that Arizona CCW permits are not honored in NM because Arizona does not meet all of the NM requirements.

    .


    Did he say HOW AZ doesn't meet the NM requirements? Cuz the 3 reasons listed above are in AZ law.
    States don’t have rights. People do.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Did he say HOW AZ doesn't meet the NM requirements? Cuz the 3 reasons listed above are in AZ law.
    He did not actually state the reasons why NM rejected Arizona reciprocity. He referred to his requirements:
    New Mexico statute 29-19-12E requires that in order for a state to be recognized by NM, their provisions have to be “at least as stringent or substantially similar” to New Mexico. NMDPS has generally found six things that make a state substantially different from New Mexico, and therefore would disqualify that state from being recognized:

    1. Permits issued locally rather than by the state;

    2. No fingerprint-based background check;

    3. Permits issued to persons under 21 years of age;

    4. Permits issued to resident aliens;

    5. No classroom (static) training required;

    6. No live-fire (dynamic) training required.

    I would assume that it is:

    Permits issued to resident aliens; (Arizona does issue to legal resident aliens)

    No classroom (static) training required; (No formal training in Arizona is now required. You can use other safety training now. When I got my permit in-state training was required)

    No live-fire (dynamic) training required. (No live firing in Arizona is now required. You can use other safety training now. When I got my permit in-state live fire was required)

    It looks like Arizona has loosened the requirements some by eliminating in-state training and live firing to make it easier for some to obtain an Arizona CCW. The issue of Arizona issuing to legal resident non-citizens can be debated as other states have lost in this regard when taken to court. Bob.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Super Saiyan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    155
    Per AZ DPS, New Mexico no longer recognizes the AZ CCW permit. http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concea...s/Reciprocity/

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    771
    Quote Originally Posted by BobF View Post
    I would assume that it is:

    Permits issued to resident aliens; (Arizona does issue to legal resident aliens)

    No classroom (static) training required; (No formal training in Arizona is now required. You can use other safety training now. When I got my permit in-state training was required)

    No live-fire (dynamic) training required. (No live firing in Arizona is now required. You can use other safety training now. When I got my permit in-state live fire was required)

    It looks like Arizona has loosened the requirements some by eliminating in-state training and live firing to make it easier for some to obtain an Arizona CCW. The issue of Arizona issuing to legal resident non-citizens can be debated as other states have lost in this regard when taken to court. Bob.
    But classroom and live fire are both still required. They did loosen it up in that you don't have to take it within the borders...but you do still have to have training. I don't see the issue. I have an AZ permit. I applied after the changes in 2010. I couldn't use a copy of my PA permit (#6) because no training was required to get it. I couldn't use a PA Hunter Safety Cert (#2) because it didn't include a live fire portion.

    Looks like the only real issue is the alien thing.

    The only issue possibly is the alien thing..

    AZ: E. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to an applicant who meets all of the following conditions:
    1. Is a resident of this state or a United States citizen.
    2. Is twenty-one years of age or older.


    NM: A. The department shall issue a concealed handgun license to an applicant who:
    (1) is a citizen of the United States;
    (2) is a resident of New Mexico or is a member of the armed forces whose permanent duty station is located in New Mexico or is a dependent of such a member


    But that section didn't change with SB1108.
    Last edited by mrjam2jab; 04-27-2012 at 10:16 AM.
    States don’t have rights. People do.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    But classroom and live fire are both still required. They did loosen it up in that you don't have to take it within the borders...but you do still have to have training. I don't see the issue. I have an AZ permit. I applied after the changes in 2010. I couldn't use a copy of my PA permit (#6) because no training was required to get it. I couldn't use a PA Hunter Safety Cert (#2) because it didn't include a live fire portion.

    Looks like the only real issue is the alien thing.

    The only issue possibly is the alien thing..

    AZ: E. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to an applicant who meets all of the following conditions:
    1. Is a resident of this state or a United States citizen.
    2. Is twenty-one years of age or older.


    NM: A. The department shall issue a concealed handgun license to an applicant who:
    (1) is a citizen of the United States;
    (2) is a resident of New Mexico or is a member of the armed forces whose permanent duty station is located in New Mexico or is a dependent of such a member


    But that section didn't change with SB1108.
    Section N of the AZ requirements says:

    An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:

    1. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class that is available to the general public, that is offered by a law enforcement agency, a junior college, a college or a private or public institution, academy, organization or firearms training school and that is approved by the department of public safety or that uses instructors who are certified by the national rifle association.

    2. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.

    3. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.

    4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class that is offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies or other divisions or subdivisions of law enforcement or security enforcement and that is approved by the department of public safety.

    5. Evidence of current military service or proof of honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions from the United States armed forces.

    6. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

    7. Completion of any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualification to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties.

    8. Completion of any other firearms safety or training course or class that is conducted by a department of public safety approved or national rifle association certified firearms instructor.

    As far as I can see there is no live fire requirement, only safety training. That, and the alien thing, are what NM is arguing about. Bob.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by BobF View Post
    Section N of the AZ requirements says:

    An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:

    1. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class that is available to the general public, that is offered by a law enforcement agency, a junior college, a college or a private or public institution, academy, organization or firearms training school and that is approved by the department of public safety or that uses instructors who are certified by the national rifle association.

    2. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.

    3. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.

    4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class that is offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies or other divisions or subdivisions of law enforcement or security enforcement and that is approved by the department of public safety.

    5. Evidence of current military service or proof of honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions from the United States armed forces.

    6. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

    7. Completion of any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualification to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties.

    8. Completion of any other firearms safety or training course or class that is conducted by a department of public safety approved or national rifle association certified firearms instructor.

    As far as I can see there is no live fire requirement, only safety training. That, and the alien thing, are what NM is arguing about. Bob.


    Completely agree- live fire training and resident alien are the issues NM has with AZ.
    Last edited by Roy V; 04-27-2012 at 10:51 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    771
    Quote Originally Posted by BobF View Post
    Section N of the AZ requirements says:

    An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:


    As far as I can see there is no live fire requirement, only safety training. That, and the alien thing, are what NM is arguing about. Bob.
    How do you demonstrate competence without actually firing?

    My application experience was with Info given to me from AZDPS. They required it.
    States don’t have rights. People do.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    454
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    I applied after the changes in 2010.
    There was some uncertainty about what would be accepted right after constitutional carry went into effect. That's why I decided to play it safe and actually took a side-trip into AZ to do my training with an AZ instructor.

    The changes doing away with the 8-hour classroom instruction and live fire occurred in 2011, not in 2010. I can't recall for sure but I believe it was in July. So- when you did yours in 2010, the old requirements were still in effect.
    Last edited by AH.74; 04-27-2012 at 11:32 AM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •