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Thread: Accidental discharge of my husband’s Glock 19 - Your help needed

  1. #26
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    Every little bit

    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    From the original post:

    Anyone wishing to help with my legal defense fund may send a contribution directly to Dan Hawes, PO Box 100, Broad Run, VA 20137-0100, please reference "Accidental2012".

    I sent my check there via mail.
    Dan has asked to reference "Minnie" in the memo line of any checks to him on my behalf for this case.

    I would like to say Thank You for all comments, your continued support and contributions.

  2. #27
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accidental2012 View Post
    Dan has asked to reference "Minnie" in the memo line of any checks to him on my behalf for this case.
    Will do.

    Good luck.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  3. #28
    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    Hmmm have to find the checkbook, I haven't written a paper check in years.

  4. #29
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    Hmmm have to find the checkbook, I haven't written a paper check in years.
    If you have on-line banking you can send funds via that. Enter "Virgiinia Legal Defense" as the payee, the address, and a memo to designate who the funds are for. When your bank cannot find an electronic account they will generate a paper check and put it in the USPS. No extra charge to you.

    Saves looking for those mythical "cheques" and hunting down a postage stamp.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  5. #30
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    If you have on-line banking you can send funds via that. Enter "Virgiinia Legal Defense" as the payee, the address, and a memo to designate who the funds are for. When your bank cannot find an electronic account they will generate a paper check and put it in the USPS. No extra charge to you.

    Saves looking for those mythical "cheques" and hunting down a postage stamp.

    stay safe.
    Excellent reminder to a banking service often overlooked - I know I have so overlooked - that's a senior way of saying disremembered..

    Will correct that and send Dan a check to help this lady.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  6. #31
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    Sometime over the last forty years I must have missed the class where instructions were given on how to clear a firearm in a motor vehicle. I've been in several situations as an EMS provider where that was necessary due to a traffic crash. Not once was the firearm cleared inside a motor vehicle. I look at a motor vehicle as being many hazards. The last thing that I would want to do is to attempt to clear a firearm inside of a motor vehicle or pointing the firearm in the direction of a motor vehicle or any type of structure.

    Perhaps one of our worthy firearm instructors could offer a reduced price firearm safety class too.

  7. #32
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Welcome back, kenny.

    The problem faced by this lady was that if she waited till she got out of her car to clear the action she runs the risk of being accused of brandishing. How onlookers and LEOs respond to what/how emergency service workers do at the scene of a call is vastly different from how they respond to someone handling a handgun outside a commercial establishment.

    I have no knowledge of the gun store in question so do not know 1) if they have a clearing barrel just inside their entrance where patrons can clear the action with a safe backstop should something not go strictly according to Hoyle, and 2) even if they did have a clearing barrel whether or not this person was aware of the presence of said clearing barrel.

    While I am not blaming the gun store for what happened, I do suggest that they might have acted in a way that would prevent/mitigate such an occurance when patrons attempt to comply with their "You must unload before entering" policy.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  8. #33
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I will step to the front of the line and tell you that I have elected to unload/clear in my vehicle, rather than in public/out of the vehicle.

    Normally that will be with me standing between the door and the interior with the pistol pointed down at a safe location in the floorboard but not at the engine, transmission or frame with wires and hydraulics. Occasionally the clearing will be done seated with the same attention to direction. Do I like it? No? There are times though that it is the most prudent way to accomplish this.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  9. #34
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I will step to the front of the line and tell you that I have elected to unload/clear in my vehicle, rather than in public/out of the vehicle.

    Normally that will be with me standing between the door and the interior with the pistol pointed down at a safe location in the floorboard but not at the engine, transmission or frame with wires and hydraulics. Occasionally the clearing will be done seated with the same attention to direction. Do I like it? No? There are times though that it is the most prudent way to accomplish this.
    Before the laws changed I had to unload often before going on school grounds then chamber and reload when off grounds afterwards. Now about the only time I have to do the process is IRONICALLY going into gun shows. I choose to unload in the car rather than going unarmed from my house to the gun show. I suppose it may be safer to unchamber a round at home and simply remove the magazine at the gun show but then you get into the argument that an unloaded/chambered gun is about as effective as a hammer if your arm isn't free to rack the slide.

    While the woman involved may have done something bonehead (not saying) I don't think the gubbermant should charge her. It is like when traffic came to a sudden stop on I64, the fact that I nudged the car infront of me (no damage) got me a following too close ticket! Insult to injury! The only reason I had to stay around is the minivan behind me slammed into my car causing 600 damage to me and alot of damage to his car. While no harm no foul may not fit all scenarios I think it does in this one. She already has to fix the hole in her car.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 04-14-2012 at 06:25 PM.
    "Cogito, ergo armatum sum: I think, therefore I am armed."

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I will step to the front of the line and tell you that I have elected to unload/clear in my vehicle, rather than in public/out of the vehicle.

    Normally that will be with me standing between the door and the interior with the pistol pointed down at a safe location in the floorboard but not at the engine, transmission or frame with wires and hydraulics. Occasionally the clearing will be done seated with the same attention to direction. Do I like it? No? There are times though that it is the most prudent way to accomplish this.
    Assuming you have years of experience in the handling of firearms, popular opinion may suggest you would know how to clear a jam and or secure the best you could an uncleared firearm.

    The OP stated is was not her firearm. Which suggests to me she should not have had the firearm in the first place, assuming she was not familiar with it.

    I guess I am just a little anal regarding firearm safety. For the rest of the story, I will have to disarm and attended the court hearing just like I did for the guy in Lynchburg who shot himself in the butt. At least that way I will get the facts straight from the horse's mouth.

    No matter the outcome this incident should become a training lesson.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post

    The OP stated is was not her firearm. Which suggests to me she should not have had the firearm in the first place, assuming she was not familiar with it.
    Based on this I would say that you think no one should ever own gun. Simply buying it does not mean you will be familiar with. The only way to become familiar with it is to handle it. I mean let's say you shouldn't drive because you have never driven before right?

    Accidents do happen. Thankfully it's never happened to me but I have seen it happen to others during my military career. To punish someone for an accident that happened because the law lets stores come up wih their own firearm policy's is mind boggling. Sure private property has the right to say wheather they want firearms on their property. But dont punish someone for an accident because state law lets you do one thing and three feet later it requires you to do another.

    I may not have said that as well as I meant. But it just makes little sense to me. If you don't want to follow. Virginia law Ben get out of my state. That goes for both citizens and businesses.

  12. #37
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    By the way, I thought I should add that I have personally met with the defendant and her husband and we chatted for some hours. I can't answer all the questions that have been raised here, obviously, however I can say that, because of a number of personal financial and health-related problems, as well as having six kids to take care of, I have satisfied myself that these folks need financial help. I also believe that the lady is genuinely not guilty of the crime with which she has been charged. Otherwise, I would not have suggested that they ask for help.
    Last edited by user; 04-15-2012 at 07:53 PM.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  13. #38
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    By the way, I thought I should add that I have personally met with the defendant and her husband and we chatted for some hours. I can't answer all the questions that have been raised here, obviously, however I can say that, because of a number of personal financial and health-related problems, as well as having six kids to take care of, I have satisfied myself that these folks need financial help. I also believe that the lady is genuinely not guilty of the crime with which she has been charged. Otherwise, I would not have suggested that they ask for help.
    There ladies and gentlemen is the gold seal of approval


    May I suggest a couple of days of brown bagging or delaying an ammo purchase - kick in what you can, the whole family will benefit....6 kids, wow!
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There ladies and gentlemen is the gold seal of approval


    May I suggest a couple of days of brown bagging or delaying an ammo purchase - kick in what you can, the whole family will benefit....6 kids, wow!
    Agreed!

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Smith View Post
    Based on this I would say that you think no one should ever own gun. Simply buying it does not mean you will be familiar with. The only way to become familiar with it is to handle it. I mean let's say you shouldn't drive because you have never driven before right?

    Accidents do happen. Thankfully it's never happened to me but I have seen it happen to others during my military career. To punish someone for an accident that happened because the law lets stores come up wih their own firearm policy's is mind boggling. Sure private property has the right to say wheather they want firearms on their property. But dont punish someone for an accident because state law lets you do one thing and three feet later it requires you to do another.

    I may not have said that as well as I meant. But it just makes little sense to me. If you don't want to follow. Virginia law Ben get out of my state. That goes for both citizens and businesses.
    No I never said anything about anyone not owning a gun. No matter what the device is you need training or just good old experience to become good with it.

    No, accidents do not just happen. They are situations or circumstances that occur randomly, individually or together that may or may not lead to an occurrence. Stores have policies, businesses have policy, families have policies. The fact that an individual obeys or disobeys a policy, is up to that individual. If you don;t like a policy well take your business elsewhere or better yet try to change the policy. Our system of laws works for most people. There is a procedure to change them.

    Day in and day out I see consumers, people like you and me, men, women and children, all colors and sizes making mistakes, having accidents or just being plan human. In fact I make a living from people being this way. We have laws for a reason. We have specialized laws design with the consumer in mind and they are not difficult to understand and I use them everyday.

    It all comes down to education and training, both of which are lacking in our society.

  16. #41
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    --Moderator edited--

  17. #42
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post
    Sometime over the last forty years I must have missed the class where instructions were given on how to clear a firearm in a motor vehicle. I've been in several situations as an EMS provider where that was necessary due to a traffic crash. Not once was the firearm cleared inside a motor vehicle. I look at a motor vehicle as being many hazards. The last thing that I would want to do is to attempt to clear a firearm inside of a motor vehicle or pointing the firearm in the direction of a motor vehicle or any type of structure.
    I have no issue with someone clearing a firearm while inside their vehicle. The key here is to understand your manual of arms. If you do not know 100% how to handle a firearm safely and how to clear it correctly, then the best course of action is to not handle it at all. I can make a best guess by reading posts here how the round ended up in the chamber...a simple reversal or operations.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post
    Perhaps one of our worthy firearm instructors could offer a reduced price firearm safety class too.
    1) Look
    2) Feel
    3) Look again

    I'm sure some of my prior students know what I mean by that. There's a freebie. No cost.

  18. #43
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post
    Accidents...In fact I make a living from people being this way...
    Me too! Funny, a few years ago the super secret squirrel agency that makes the official medical codes for injury and disease decided that MVAs (Motor Vehicle Accidents) were to be reclassified as MVCs (Motor Vehicle Collisions).

    More funny: I wonder what would be the unintended consequences of having a law against handling a firearm or removing it from it's holster in public (with certain exemptions like self defense, at police order, etc.)? Certainly, some laws and rules would need to be changed, or a lot more people would be going about with unloaded guns.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Me too! Funny, a few years ago the super secret squirrel agency that makes the official medical codes for injury and disease decided that MVAs (Motor Vehicle Accidents) were to be reclassified as MVCs (Motor Vehicle Collisions).

    More funny: I wonder what would be the unintended consequences of having a law against handling a firearm or removing it from it's holster in public (with certain exemptions like self defense, at police order, etc.)? Certainly, some laws and rules would need to be changed, or a lot more people would be going about with unloaded guns.
    Ssssh, Lori is listening
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenny View Post
    No I never said anything about anyone not owning a gun. No matter what the device is you need training or just good old experience to become good with it.
    Since she was going to a range might it be safe to assume that she was trying to become more expierenced with the weapon? Should she be punished for making every effort to follow the law to the letter?

    I have seen weapons discharge without ever pulling the trigger so yes accidents do happen. It's not due to negligence or lack of expierence or familiarity. And it's not like she had the intention of blowing a hole in her own van. Or to harm herself or anyone else. Tell her not to do it again. Hell make her take a court ordered weapons safety class. But don't charge her with a crime

  21. #46
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Smith View Post
    Since she was going to a range might it be safe to assume that she was trying to become more expierenced with the weapon? Should she be punished for making every effort to follow the law to the letter?

    I have seen weapons discharge without ever pulling the trigger so yes accidents do happen. It's not due to negligence or lack of expierence or familiarity. And it's not like she had the intention of blowing a hole in her own van. Or to harm herself or anyone else. Tell her not to do it again. Hell make her take a court ordered weapons safety class. But don't charge her with a crime
    You can't have one w/o the other.

    I agree with the latter (don't charge) - no harm, no foul, should have been no reason to involve the courts.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  22. #47
    Regular Member ryan7068's Avatar
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    The miracle of a semi-automatic!

    Growing up in a country area of California, there was no shortage of places to shoot. One day my inexperienced father purchased a hundgun and we went shooting out in the middle of nowhere. He knew just enough to get it loaded and fire it and he went through one magazine and we headed home. While headed home he kept inquiring about there possibly being a round still in the chamber. So, not knowing how to check, he pointed it out the window and pulled the trigger. Boom!!! There was one in the chamber. Thankfully he didnt swirve off of the road and the bullet went out the window. We were both deaf for a few minutes.

    In any case, I never handled a firearm I wasn't familiar with and I never allow someone to handle one of mine without talking them throught the operation and making sure they know it well. Even if it means they feel kind of silly. Id rather feel silly for not knowing and ask, than hurt someone else or myself.

    **Just goes to show: There is no way in heck that mistake will be made twice.**
    "Yes, I am carrying a loaded firearm. Why aren't you? "

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    Before the laws changed I had to unload often before going on school grounds then chamber and reload when off grounds afterwards. Now about the only time I have to do the process is IRONICALLY going into gun shows. I choose to unload in the car rather than going unarmed from my house to the gun show. I suppose it may be safer to unchamber a round at home and simply remove the magazine at the gun show but then you get into the argument that an unloaded/chambered gun is about as effective as a hammer if your arm isn't free to rack the slide.
    ^^^ This.

    You saved me the trouble of typing all of that. I concur 100%.

    A couple of other notes.

    Virginia Arms is not a range. It is a gun store. And a damn good gun store at that.

    Carrying a loaded gun is fine CC or OC but it must remain holstered.

    Virginia Arms also sells guns on consignment. In order to inspect a gun it must be unloaded. But don't do it in the store.

    If she were taking the gun to sell because her husband was unable to come, she might not have realized that the gun needed to be unloaded. If she then returned to the car to unload a gun with which she was unfamiliar, and had an discharge despite her efforts to be safe, I'm not sure I would call that negligent.

    I have been in tough economic situations myself. And have great sympathy for anyone who has to sell their guns for food, rent, medical bills, or whatever. I'm not saying that was the case here. Having to fight criminal charges certainly wouldn't help.
    Last edited by Fenris; 04-18-2012 at 10:47 PM. Reason: extending

  24. #49
    Super Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Directed bank to send funds yesterday - will try to do so periodically.

    I accept that her problem is my problem - as she is harmed, so am I. I will not let her stand alone.

    No man (or woman) is an island, entire of itself.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

  25. #50
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    Thumbs up Dan Hawes

    I had the pleasure of speaking with Dan Hawes on the phone about my situation last fall. The man is a brilliant attorney and will most likely win the case......Good Luck to you!!

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