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Accidental discharge of my husband’s Glock 19 - Your help needed

Grapeshot

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This was an accidental discharge, noting that we commonly use the word, "accident" to include acts of simple negligence, along with random, unpredictable events. This may have been an act of simple negligence. However the facts indicate that she was doing what she could to do what she was doing safely, and in particular, being scrupulous about keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. She made a couple of mistakes, first in the order of operations, resulting in a round being in the chamber unexpectedly, and secondly, attempting to remove the slide (requiring a pull of the trigger) instead of merely locking the slide back. But such mistakes coupled with adherence to the safety rules do not constitute "gross negligence", much less "recklessness".

Recklessness, in the criminal context, requires such a degree of indifference to life, limb, and property, as to constitute criminal malice. If she'd had the gun pointed at a crowd of people when attempting to unload it instead of down at the seat in the van, that would have been recklessness. This was not reckless handling of a firearm, it was careful handling of a firearm with a couple of unfortunate mistakes. If she hadn't been the owner of the vehicle that now has a hole in the seat, the owner could sue her for negligence, but this was clearly not a crime, and I think it was wrong to have charged her.

I have observed an increase, generally, in such charges around Virginia, which I believe is merely an attempt to "get guns off the street" on the part of law enforcement, since they always seize the guns and almost never give them back.

Thanks for the input Dan.

How may funds be directed to assist in this ladies defense?
 

Grapeshot

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I'm curious what the OP was HUNTING in her car. The title of the Code in question seems to imply that it is about reckless hunting.

It has been suggested (stated?) by Dan Hawes, I believe, that they title of a code does not play into the meaning/interpretation of the law. All such is contained within the body of the statute.
 

45acpForMe

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Thanks for the input Dan.

How may funds be directed to assist in this ladies defense?

From the original post:

Anyone wishing to help with my legal defense fund may send a contribution directly to Dan Hawes, PO Box 100, Broad Run, VA 20137-0100, please reference "Accidental2012".

I sent my check there via mail.
 

peter nap

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From the original post:

Anyone wishing to help with my legal defense fund may send a contribution directly to Dan Hawes, PO Box 100, Broad Run, VA 20137-0100, please reference "Accidental2012".

I sent my check there via mail.

I've been prepping for a class on advanced color grading (Which is way over my head) since around midnight, so I haven't been following things real closely...but...

Every so often I get so sick of the cheerleaders, chest thumpers, EM's that don't know S^it, CHiPpers, and so on...that I want to go off in the woods and forget about the gun community .....

Then the good ones will come out of the woodwork and remind me that there are a hell of a lot of decent people to be proud of.

Today is one of those days!
 

Accidental2012

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Every little bit

From the original post:

Anyone wishing to help with my legal defense fund may send a contribution directly to Dan Hawes, PO Box 100, Broad Run, VA 20137-0100, please reference "Accidental2012".

I sent my check there via mail.

Dan has asked to reference "Minnie" in the memo line of any checks to him on my behalf for this case.

I would like to say Thank You for all comments, your continued support and contributions.
 

skidmark

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Hmmm have to find the checkbook, I haven't written a paper check in years.

If you have on-line banking you can send funds via that. Enter "Virgiinia Legal Defense" as the payee, the address, and a memo to designate who the funds are for. When your bank cannot find an electronic account they will generate a paper check and put it in the USPS. No extra charge to you.

Saves looking for those mythical "cheques" and hunting down a postage stamp.

stay safe.
 

Grapeshot

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If you have on-line banking you can send funds via that. Enter "Virgiinia Legal Defense" as the payee, the address, and a memo to designate who the funds are for. When your bank cannot find an electronic account they will generate a paper check and put it in the USPS. No extra charge to you.

Saves looking for those mythical "cheques" and hunting down a postage stamp.

stay safe.

Excellent reminder to a banking service often overlooked - I know I have so overlooked - that's a senior way of saying disremembered..

Will correct that and send Dan a check to help this lady.
 

kenny

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Apr 11, 2007
Messages
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Location
Richmond Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
Sometime over the last forty years I must have missed the class where instructions were given on how to clear a firearm in a motor vehicle. I've been in several situations as an EMS provider where that was necessary due to a traffic crash. Not once was the firearm cleared inside a motor vehicle. I look at a motor vehicle as being many hazards. The last thing that I would want to do is to attempt to clear a firearm inside of a motor vehicle or pointing the firearm in the direction of a motor vehicle or any type of structure.

Perhaps one of our worthy firearm instructors could offer a reduced price firearm safety class too.
 

skidmark

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Welcome back, kenny.

The problem faced by this lady was that if she waited till she got out of her car to clear the action she runs the risk of being accused of brandishing. How onlookers and LEOs respond to what/how emergency service workers do at the scene of a call is vastly different from how they respond to someone handling a handgun outside a commercial establishment.

I have no knowledge of the gun store in question so do not know 1) if they have a clearing barrel just inside their entrance where patrons can clear the action with a safe backstop should something not go strictly according to Hoyle, and 2) even if they did have a clearing barrel whether or not this person was aware of the presence of said clearing barrel.

While I am not blaming the gun store for what happened, I do suggest that they might have acted in a way that would prevent/mitigate such an occurance when patrons attempt to comply with their "You must unload before entering" policy.

stay safe.
 

Grapeshot

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I will step to the front of the line and tell you that I have elected to unload/clear in my vehicle, rather than in public/out of the vehicle.

Normally that will be with me standing between the door and the interior with the pistol pointed down at a safe location in the floorboard but not at the engine, transmission or frame with wires and hydraulics. Occasionally the clearing will be done seated with the same attention to direction. Do I like it? No? There are times though that it is the most prudent way to accomplish this.
 

45acpForMe

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I will step to the front of the line and tell you that I have elected to unload/clear in my vehicle, rather than in public/out of the vehicle.

Normally that will be with me standing between the door and the interior with the pistol pointed down at a safe location in the floorboard but not at the engine, transmission or frame with wires and hydraulics. Occasionally the clearing will be done seated with the same attention to direction. Do I like it? No? There are times though that it is the most prudent way to accomplish this.

Before the laws changed I had to unload often before going on school grounds then chamber and reload when off grounds afterwards. Now about the only time I have to do the process is IRONICALLY going into gun shows. I choose to unload in the car rather than going unarmed from my house to the gun show. I suppose it may be safer to unchamber a round at home and simply remove the magazine at the gun show but then you get into the argument that an unloaded/chambered gun is about as effective as a hammer if your arm isn't free to rack the slide.

While the woman involved may have done something bonehead (not saying) I don't think the gubbermant should charge her. It is like when traffic came to a sudden stop on I64, the fact that I nudged the car infront of me (no damage) got me a following too close ticket! Insult to injury! The only reason I had to stay around is the minivan behind me slammed into my car causing 600 damage to me and alot of damage to his car. While no harm no foul may not fit all scenarios I think it does in this one. She already has to fix the hole in her car.
 
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kenny

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Richmond Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
I will step to the front of the line and tell you that I have elected to unload/clear in my vehicle, rather than in public/out of the vehicle.

Normally that will be with me standing between the door and the interior with the pistol pointed down at a safe location in the floorboard but not at the engine, transmission or frame with wires and hydraulics. Occasionally the clearing will be done seated with the same attention to direction. Do I like it? No? There are times though that it is the most prudent way to accomplish this.

Assuming you have years of experience in the handling of firearms, popular opinion may suggest you would know how to clear a jam and or secure the best you could an uncleared firearm.

The OP stated is was not her firearm. Which suggests to me she should not have had the firearm in the first place, assuming she was not familiar with it.

I guess I am just a little anal regarding firearm safety. For the rest of the story, I will have to disarm and attended the court hearing just like I did for the guy in Lynchburg who shot himself in the butt. At least that way I will get the facts straight from the horse's mouth.

No matter the outcome this incident should become a training lesson.
 

Doc_Smith

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The OP stated is was not her firearm. Which suggests to me she should not have had the firearm in the first place, assuming she was not familiar with it.

Based on this I would say that you think no one should ever own gun. Simply buying it does not mean you will be familiar with. The only way to become familiar with it is to handle it. I mean let's say you shouldn't drive because you have never driven before right?

Accidents do happen. Thankfully it's never happened to me but I have seen it happen to others during my military career. To punish someone for an accident that happened because the law lets stores come up wih their own firearm policy's is mind boggling. Sure private property has the right to say wheather they want firearms on their property. But dont punish someone for an accident because state law lets you do one thing and three feet later it requires you to do another.

I may not have said that as well as I meant. But it just makes little sense to me. If you don't want to follow. Virginia law Ben get out of my state. That goes for both citizens and businesses.
 

user

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By the way, I thought I should add that I have personally met with the defendant and her husband and we chatted for some hours. I can't answer all the questions that have been raised here, obviously, however I can say that, because of a number of personal financial and health-related problems, as well as having six kids to take care of, I have satisfied myself that these folks need financial help. I also believe that the lady is genuinely not guilty of the crime with which she has been charged. Otherwise, I would not have suggested that they ask for help.
 
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Grapeshot

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By the way, I thought I should add that I have personally met with the defendant and her husband and we chatted for some hours. I can't answer all the questions that have been raised here, obviously, however I can say that, because of a number of personal financial and health-related problems, as well as having six kids to take care of, I have satisfied myself that these folks need financial help. I also believe that the lady is genuinely not guilty of the crime with which she has been charged. Otherwise, I would not have suggested that they ask for help.

There ladies and gentlemen is the gold seal of approval


May I suggest a couple of days of brown bagging or delaying an ammo purchase - kick in what you can, the whole family will benefit....6 kids, wow!
 

kenny

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Based on this I would say that you think no one should ever own gun. Simply buying it does not mean you will be familiar with. The only way to become familiar with it is to handle it. I mean let's say you shouldn't drive because you have never driven before right?

Accidents do happen. Thankfully it's never happened to me but I have seen it happen to others during my military career. To punish someone for an accident that happened because the law lets stores come up wih their own firearm policy's is mind boggling. Sure private property has the right to say wheather they want firearms on their property. But dont punish someone for an accident because state law lets you do one thing and three feet later it requires you to do another.

I may not have said that as well as I meant. But it just makes little sense to me. If you don't want to follow. Virginia law Ben get out of my state. That goes for both citizens and businesses.

No I never said anything about anyone not owning a gun. No matter what the device is you need training or just good old experience to become good with it.

No, accidents do not just happen. They are situations or circumstances that occur randomly, individually or together that may or may not lead to an occurrence. Stores have policies, businesses have policy, families have policies. The fact that an individual obeys or disobeys a policy, is up to that individual. If you don;t like a policy well take your business elsewhere or better yet try to change the policy. Our system of laws works for most people. There is a procedure to change them.

Day in and day out I see consumers, people like you and me, men, women and children, all colors and sizes making mistakes, having accidents or just being plan human. In fact I make a living from people being this way. We have laws for a reason. We have specialized laws design with the consumer in mind and they are not difficult to understand and I use them everyday.

It all comes down to education and training, both of which are lacking in our society.
 
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